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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 03:51:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, if they actually did anything that came across as purely evil, I'd not have a problem with the reaction. But when all of their actions can be justified as legitimate business -- even when we don't agree with those actions -- then it's ridiculous to keep screaming about how evil they are.
Oh I agree whole-heartedly, but I'm also coming from just a general disgust that the entertainment industry is worried more about the monetary value of a product and not the artistic value. It seems that every year it gets worse and worse. I'm glad that comic books are being made into more movies because there are some great stories there, but it seems like the movies are only good for one or two films (before or after a 'reboot'  ) until the story ideas deviate from the comics and more towards what a corporation 'thinks will sell'. (Perfect example, Spidey 3. "We're going to have a Spidey musical on Broadway, make sure you add some song and dance numbers to the film Sam!"*)
I don't fault them for wanting to make money, I understand that's the reason why they are in business. Which is why I'm trying not to say they are evil. But it's a slow process.
*I believe that this is one of the reasons Marvel jumped at the chance to form their own studio so they could remain true to the original stories. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 03:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
My problem, beyond what they did to the Realms, is with the company itself. It no longer seems to view me (or us) as valued customers and instead views us as cash cows for it to milk.
-That's what a customer is: someone who spends money on your products. This is a big business here, so we're all faceless ("old" customers and "new"), unlike, say, small businesses, "where everybody knows your name". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Feb 2009 03:59:41 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 05:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
*I believe that this is one of the reasons Marvel jumped at the chance to form their own studio so they could remain true to the original stories.
I'm kinda having my doubts about that now. Granted, Iron Man was a spectacular adaptation of the original comic series. But the recent fiasco surrounding the production and writers for the upcoming Thor film tell me Hollywood isn't completely done with them yet.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 09:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Let's see...Here's what I'm guessing:
Completely reverse course and get rid of 4e, replacing it with either 3e again, or an "upgraded" version of 3e, like Paizo's ruleset.
Completely undo all of the changes made to the Forgotten Realms in the 4e updates, and plenty of stuff before that, going back, say, ten years or so.
Give away all of the money that they've made over however long WotC has existed as a company, and give it to assorted charities.
Exert however much political pressure is needed to sway Oslo into giving Ed Greenwood a Nobel Prize.
Sign Elaine Cunningham to a long-term, permanent position with great retirement perks.
Issue a "mea culpa" explaining how they were dumb, and the fans were right, and so on and so on and so on.
Move their headquarters from in the Seattle area to somewhere nicer. Let's go with Miami. Seattle, being all dour and rainy, has obviously put a damper on what WotC was able to accomplish. Miami is much nicer, and will obviously get those creative juices flower better.
-And, that's about it. Maybe.
Sounds good to me, but its of course the best thing to do to move back to the 2ed. And move the company to Pittsburgh; I would trust the company far more if it was run by Steelers fans. 
But seriously. Even I think the critique against WotC is getting more and more ridiculous. They are a company taking actions against something they deem a trespass. There nothing sinister about it and it is a move that almost every company in the world would make. Now, is it a sign of doom for us all? It might, but we have very little to base these fears on. |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 09:50:33
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Yes sorry 9000 violations in one site, my mistake and apologise. however it would be imprudent to say or think that he was just doing a once over exercise.
They havent done any thing evil, they own the product and they can do what ever they chose, in fact it seems that for the survival of d&d they felt that it was required to reboot and make things simpler, specially for the computer market where blizzard as an example has stomped DDO and any other game. The system now is far much easier to implement on a computer game and also the amount of people that now feel that they can pick up the book to play is growing (dont know why it was so difficult).
All I was trying to say is that for anyone doing or wanting to do any resource only for 4ed etc. should be weary and wait until the fan site policy is released. Candlekeep is in privilege position because they are seem by most if not all designer and realms writers (including ed) as a great place and if management were going to take any action against candleKeep .... well it just would not happen candlekeep has its protectors and strong ones too. |
Purple you say?!
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 11:36:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Portella
they felt that it was required to reboot and make things simpler, specially for the computer market where blizzard as an example has stomped DDO and any other game. The system now is far much easier to implement on a computer game
Except not really, its still based upon abilities a day. When a computer game needs abilities per how many seconds..
Either way, regarding the business, my estimates of a failed business is based upon the undeniable fact that they werent making anything in over a year and a half! And when they finally came out with something, it had a less than enthusiastic crowd.
Is anyone here even going say every second month to their gamestore anymore..? No wonder mine has shifted into anime-comike, games given only a far corner anymore..
Nothing to indicate 4e sells better than the medium sized Cthulhu plush figure! And this is the one and only shop in finland, all 5 million people, serviced in 3 shops.. each of the biggest cities.
DDDi also is based upon the willingness to pay for internet content. With my expirience from that field, and sheer numbers, i strongly doubt there are any more than 100 payers for DDDi. Even 50 would be downright revolutionary.. Even if there are 100.000 active users of the boards, thats still not more than 200 at the very most, which amounts to $1000/months.. and a far cry from a whole paycheck.
As a comparison, 500 enthusiastic and highly active members, many dedicating their lives to the issue, couldnt find more than 2 persons willing to pay.
And how many active users...? I doubt its much above a few thousand, 10.000 at the most, so about 40 customers? The switch of the magazines made it easy.. but.. theychanged too, into that encounter system which I amongst many oldtimers consider unusable.
Finally, marketing classes have a old saying. Dont you as a company presume to know better than your customers on what kind of a product they want. They have been going straight againt this old rule, one that has innumerable old companies as wrecks as evidence of its truth. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 14:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikki
Finally, marketing classes have a old saying. Dont you as a company presume to know better than your customers on what kind of a product they want. They have been going straight againt this old rule, one that has innumerable old companies as wrecks as evidence of its truth.
A prime example of this has been WikKid's ClickTech for BattleTech: The Dark Age. They changed the game, hoping to cash in on the Collectible market, but wound up 'losing'* to Classic BattleTech.
*Not really losing, but you get the idea... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 16:21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikki
Either way, regarding the business, my estimates of a failed business is based upon the undeniable fact that they werent making anything in over a year and a half!
-If Wizards of the Coast did not make any profits for six quarters+, they would no longer exist. Can you cite where we have evidence that Wizards of the Coast did not net any profits for a year and a half?
quote:
Originally posted by Ikki
Is anyone here even going say every second month to their gamestore anymore..? No wonder mine has shifted into anime-comike, games given only a far corner anymore...
-The nearest comic book store by my house has always relegated D&D-type books into a far corner. With the more recent rise in popularity in anime, as opposed to "regular" comic books, the section is still where it is, having been unchanged by the rise in popularity of a completely unrelated topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Ikki
DDDi also is based upon the willingness to pay for internet content. With my expirience from that field, and sheer numbers, i strongly doubt there are any more than 100 payers for DDDi. Even 50 would be downright revolutionary.. Even if there are 100.000 active users of the boards, thats still not more than 200 at the very most, which amounts to $1000/months.. and a far cry from a whole paycheck.
-Can you cite where you are drawing your numbers from? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Feb 2009 16:22:22 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:04:50
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Enworld posted another headline on their news site about this:
"Update on the closure of Ema's Character Sheets website.
Ema has indicated that he chose to close the entire website after WoTC asked him to remove certain specific content: "For legal reasons, he could not comment on the specifics, but he did confirm that he received a Cease & Desist letter from the legal branch of Wizards of the Coast in regards to portions of his website, and decided to shut down the site in its entirety instead of leave up something less than what he envisioned." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Feb 2009 18:05:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Enworld posted another headline on their news site about this:
"Update on the closure of Ema's Character Sheets website.
Ema has indicated that he chose to close the entire website after WoTC asked him to remove certain specific content: "For legal reasons, he could not comment on the specifics, but he did confirm that he received a Cease & Desist letter from the legal branch of Wizards of the Coast in regards to portions of his website, and decided to shut down the site in its entirety instead of leave up something less than what he envisioned."
Boy, that puts a whole different spin on this whole thing, doesn't it? It makes WotC into less of a bad guy... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:35:43
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-Give it a week and WotC will do something else wrong or evil. And the kneejerk will start anew. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:36:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
.....
People keep alluding to this mysterious D&D audience that thinks the Forgotten Realms had too much information in it. I don't understand the logic behind this opinion, and I haven't seen much evidence that this group even exists, yet WotC based their 4e decisions around the opinions of this invisible group.....
Well that group consists of the people who continue to claim that and the handfull responsible for the changes....so it's about 8 to 10 people strong and growing.
I will never understand or believe that excuse either. It is just fiction to support their goals. And unfortunately I still have a feeling some of the goal is to make the Realms less Ed-like. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Enworld posted another headline on their news site about this:
"Update on the closure of Ema's Character Sheets website.
Ema has indicated that he chose to close the entire website after WoTC asked him to remove certain specific content: "For legal reasons, he could not comment on the specifics, but he did confirm that he received a Cease & Desist letter from the legal branch of Wizards of the Coast in regards to portions of his website, and decided to shut down the site in its entirety instead of leave up something less than what he envisioned."
Boy, that puts a whole different spin on this whole thing, doesn't it? It makes WotC into less of a bad guy...
More like a surgeon who comes in and cuts out your vitals...then says you can keep the rest intact, it's ok with me! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I will never understand or believe that excuse either. It is just fiction to support their goals. And unfortunately I still have a feeling some of the goal is to make the Realms less Ed-like.
-I have had that same feeling too for awhile. So what happens when WotC tries to remove Keith Baker from Eberron in time for 6th Edition.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I will never understand or believe that excuse either. It is just fiction to support their goals. And unfortunately I still have a feeling some of the goal is to make the Realms less Ed-like.
-I have had that same feeling too for awhile. So what happens when WotC tries to remove Keith Baker from Eberron in time for 6th Edition.
BRIMSTONE
Good question 
But since he is kinda responsible for their novel line not being canon and keeping the setting seperate , he should be safe.
But who knows? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 08:41:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I understand all this. But what I've been seeing, ever since 4E was announced, that any move WotC makes is being met with cries of "they're evil!" or "Haha, they're losing money on this mistake!". I'm just getting really, really tired of it.
It's become a knee-jerk reaction with people: mention WotC, and they automatically assume the worst. I know 4E and the Shattered Realms have pissed off a lot of people (myself included), but this is getting ridiculous. 
I understand what you mean, I just think that people are still really ticked off with WotC and want them to fail out of spite. It's not my philosophy, and I can very much understand being tired of hearing it, but I think some people just need to vent.
Hells, I understand all that, too. And I want there to be just enough of a failure for them to have to reset the Realms back to something recognizable. Venting is one thing, but the automatic negative reaction to any mention of WotC is freakin' ridiculous.
I would have thought that we were smart enough to actually approach things in a reasonable manner. I'm now thinking I was mistaken for thinking that.
Sorry pal. It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. You're clearly answering my comments, so I'm answering back: WotC is utterly done for. If you're still on the fence about it, that's fine... keep the "wait and see" attitude, and keep shelling your dollars their way... 'cause there's nothing anyone will say here to change your mind at this point (I mean, if you haven't notice how in the crapper they are now, and how good Paizo is doing, and how great the PRPG rules are turning out to be...) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 09:08:59
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So what, some people (like me) has had those opinions since the advent of 3ed. That is not reason enough to try to search out things to complain about every single second. WotC is doing more or less the same thing they have done for years, that is changing thing to their liking and guessing which group of buyers will give them most earnings. That means getting as many of the sceptic, newcomers and "buy all to support the setting" people as possible. That last group may complain and hope to see changes, but in the end money will rule. The designers will do their best to make good products within the format they think will please most buyers and we as buyers,react to just that. WotC has been butchering the Realms as I enjoyed them for years and I have stopped buying their products, there's nothing more to it than that. They don't owe us anything and we don't owe them anything.
Paizo seems to be doing a good job, but that doesn't mean that they will saintly follow your wishes in the future. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 09:35:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Paizo seems to be doing a good job, but that doesn't mean that they will saintly follow your wishes in the future.
I love this sentence. You have my respects, kind Sir! 
I will strive to keep Paizo on the holy side of things as long as possible! 
Vigilance is important, but when tons of great quality products keep showing up at my doorstep, I tend soften and be less critical than I should perhaps be. All I know is that my Pathfinder Society gaming group and I are having a blast playing in Golarion. So much so that I've converted my Realms group to Golarion as well: we start the Second Darkness adventure path on Tuesday!!! (can't wait, especially since I'm not the DM this time, and will be kicking it old school with a pure melee, sword and board fighter!!! in the PRPG rules no less, which has added tons of feats for shield users... yay!)
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 14:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, if they actually did anything that came across as purely evil, I'd not have a problem with the reaction. But when all of their actions can be justified as legitimate business -- even when we don't agree with those actions -- then it's ridiculous to keep screaming about how evil they are.
To be honest, I haven't that many posters in this thread say how evil WotC are.
ranger_of_the_unicorn_run's post on 10th Feb says it best, I think.
Yes, they are a company and they need to make a profit but they're not selling us milk and cheese, or other things that we consume in a minute and/or without a great deal of thought. They're either selling us something they want us to enjoy and care about, or they're selling us something that adds to previously bought products. They're asking us to think about their product and develop an attachment to it.
Their recent actions have been cavalier. Their actions do not look like they're expanding their customer base but swapping one set of customers for another.
The Realms have been the setting for several successful PC games, Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. And if the setting was good enough then why dumb it down now.
To me, their recent actions suggest that they do not attach the same care and thought as they have previously asked me to give.
Now, as I have made a commitment not to purchase $th Edn products and the $th Edn FR setting looks distinctly unappealing I am really not that bothered.
I do not see WotC as evil but just as an organisation that has stopped trying. They're doing something by the numbers and according to established procedure. The previous editions came from the heart, and if they made a few quid out of it then I was happy for them because I felt they deserved it. In fact, my bookshelves are testament to that former feeling. The absence of any $th Ed products has come about from my perception that they have changed from "Let's sell something people want to treasure" to "Lets shift product".
The products of WotC are not vital to my life. They can be as business-like as they want but their products have to engage me. The Tolkien estate are also pretty hard-nosed when it comes to protecting their IP but they're also involved in many of the same markets as WotC, it's just that they still give the impression they're passionate about their product. They haven't published the abridged version of 'The Lord of the Rings' or killed off Tom Bombadil* in the recent editions because his concept was too complex for new customers.
I think some of the feeling is that many of us disagree that the Realms were too complex. Dumbing down is OK for viewers of Fox or CNN but some of us can actually read and understand big words, (we can even spell them too).
* I know he was missing in the films but that was due to running time and the film-making process. That said, the three LotR movies are still better than the two D&D movies. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 14:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I understand all this. But what I've been seeing, ever since 4E was announced, that any move WotC makes is being met with cries of "they're evil!" or "Haha, they're losing money on this mistake!". I'm just getting really, really tired of it.
It's become a knee-jerk reaction with people: mention WotC, and they automatically assume the worst. I know 4E and the Shattered Realms have pissed off a lot of people (myself included), but this is getting ridiculous.
I understand what you mean, I just think that people are still really ticked off with WotC and want them to fail out of spite. It's not my philosophy, and I can very much understand being tired of hearing it, but I think some people just need to vent.
Hells, I understand all that, too. And I want there to be just enough of a failure for them to have to reset the Realms back to something recognizable. Venting is one thing, but the automatic negative reaction to any mention of WotC is freakin' ridiculous.
I would have thought that we were smart enough to actually approach things in a reasonable manner. I'm now thinking I was mistaken for thinking that.
Sorry pal. It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. You're clearly answering my comments, so I'm answering back: WotC is utterly done for. If you're still on the fence about it, that's fine... keep the "wait and see" attitude, and keep shelling your dollars their way... 'cause there's nothing anyone will say here to change your mind at this point (I mean, if you haven't notice how in the crapper they are now, and how good Paizo is doing, and how great the PRPG rules are turning out to be...)
Okay, first, my comments were not aimed at any one person. My comments were about the general trend I've seen in this and many other threads.
Second, I'm not on the fence. I hate WotC as much as anyone else, and they've gotten $8 from me since announcing 4E -- and that was for Blackstaff Tower. I got the 4E FR stuff, but I made a point of getting it on the cheap from eBay. I do not support WotC, and I will not support them so long as the game remains unrecognizable and the Shattered Realms exists in place of the real setting. And if I wasn't unemployed right now, I'd have everything Paizo has put out right now. As it is, all I have is the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and I quite like it. So don't accuse me of being some sort of WotC fanboy just because I refuse to believe they're evil or because I want proof before I assume they're failing. If I could, I'd happily buy the company and fire some people and move others so that they never touched any Realms product ever again.
My point is that people are letting their emotions get in the way of their logic. People now hate WotC so much that anything WotC does is seen as either them trying to screw someone, or them being about to go under, or both. My point is that absent any evidence that supports these two ideas, it's not just silly, it's ridiculous to assume that either idea is valid.
This very thread is good proof of that. People immediately started blasting WotC for being evil and shutting down a website. They ignored the fact that WotC was well within its legal rights. They ignored the fact that WotC could do a hell of a lot more. And they ignored the fact that it was one website out of thousands.
And then we got more info, including the fact that the guy shut down his website himself, and that WotC only wanted a portion of it gone. People were howling for WotC blood, and it turned out that WotC hadn't done what it was accused of.
I am asking that people think, not just react. Maybe I'm odd that way, but I think we should use our brains for something other than keeping our ears from whistling. And I'm really &*&$^%$&@ing tired of being told I'm wrong for wanting people to make intelligent decisions, not knee-jerk reactions!
And now I'm done with this thread. I can't deal with this crap any more. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 14:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Paizo seems to be doing a good job, but that doesn't mean that they will saintly follow your wishes in the future.
I love this sentence. You have my respects, kind Sir!
I will strive to keep Paizo on the holy side of things as long as possible!
Vigilance is important, but when tons of great quality products keep showing up at my doorstep, I tend soften and be less critical than I should perhaps be. All I know is that my Pathfinder Society gaming group and I are having a blast playing in Golarion. So much so that I've converted my Realms group to Golarion as well: we start the Second Darkness adventure path on Tuesday!!! (can't wait, especially since I'm not the DM this time, and will be kicking it old school with a pure melee, sword and board fighter!!! in the PRPG rules no less, which has added tons of feats for shield users... yay!)
I am so jealous, i just need to find a group... grrr. want to play PFRPG! |
Purple you say?!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And now I'm done with this thread. I can't deal with this crap any more.
Sorry, Wooly. I've come to an epiphany over the last couple of days. I've realized that a lot of my anger seems to come up when I read the WotC boards. Unfortunately, I tend to go back and forth between here and there, and so my blood gets boilin' from there and spills over to here. Re: Ema's site, it just felt a little more personal to me than usual since I've been a huge fan of his sheets for years.
I apologize, I know that it was a business decision for the Cease & Desist and Ema did take the site down on his own. Wasbro isn't evil, but they are looking at the bottom line a little too much these days, IMHO.
Finally, I just wanted to say that this thread's got nothing on what's going on at the Wizard's forums: emass-web.com Cease and Desist?. The thread there is where most of my dark emotions came from over this since there seemed to be a lot of people (on both sides) screaming "facts" in the usual internet-savvy manner. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I know that it was a business decision for the Cease & Desist and Ema did take the site down on his own. Wasbro isn't evil, but they are looking at the bottom line a little too much these days, IMHO.
I've said it earlier in this thread, but the above sentiment says what is so sad about the situation. Ashe strikes me as a decent person but he feel less inclined to speak favourably about WotC.
I've read most of the posts on this thread and a good number give me the impression of people who have become disappointed with WotC. They used to enjoy what WotC produced with the usual differences of opinion but now they think all of it is bad.
With the internet word of mouth counts for a lot. Similarly, how people feel about a product and/or company also counts for a lot. A good number of folk don't feel good about WotC and have the forums to express their opinion. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 23:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-If Wizards of the Coast did not make any profits for six quarters+, they would no longer exist. Can you cite where we have evidence that Wizards of the Coast did not net any profits for a year and a half?
-Can you cite where you are drawing your numbers from?
The no new products coming out. Thus it must have been a dry period. certainly old stuff certainly brought something.. but something is a far cry from decent.
Naturally. As stated, a website me and some friends have been keeping. Think survivalist, conspiracy etc themed. People building bunkers and stocking up on guns, ammo, water etc ;)
All in semi-secret, but still. Thus no website stated.
Obviously the dnd website numbers are a pure guess, well, i did make the trouble of actually going in to count the members present soon after that post and ended up with ~150.
So a total of some 5000 even remotely active users should be about right. (and thus even more depressing numbers than in my post..)
Similarily paying for internet content has always been difficult. Any number of studies have found out that. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 00:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I'm really &*&$^%$&@ing tired of being told I'm wrong for wanting people to make intelligent decisions, not knee-jerk reactions!
And now I'm done with this thread. I can't deal with this crap any more.
Gooooooooooooooood! let your anger flow through youuuuu! feel how powerful it makes you! use your anger as a weapon! the Jedi (err... WotC) are hypocrites and live a life of unrealistic expectations, and cast aside all who oppose them! come to the Dark Side!!!! (err... Paizo boards! ) |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 14:03:09
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Wooly you have open my eyes thank you and I am sorry you have had enough.
Some one death grip this scroll and cast seal scroll. obviously if everyone agrees. |
Purple you say?!
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 14:53:59
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I don't (and never did), think that WotC is evil; I think, however, that they have the PR savvy of a Rhinocerous with diarrhoea. WotC now comes across as a bottom-line focussed bland corporation who either ignore their customers or patronise them with Dilbertesque corp-speak.
These days image is everything and IMO the image WotC are projecting does them no favours. After the various corporate scandals I don't think many people trust corporations. As IMO WotC comes across as just another corporation people don't trust them. Any action by WotC is viewed through this perception and looked at in the worst possible light. We need to change our perspective, but WotC also needs to start giving the impression that they actually give a damn about their customers which, IMO, at the moment they don't. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 14:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm really &*&$^%$&@ing tired of being told I'm wrong for wanting people to make intelligent decisions, not knee-jerk reactions!
I don't think you're wrong for wanting people to make intelligent decisions, just wildly optimistic. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 15:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
that they have the PR savvy of a Rhinocerous with diarrhoea.
I like this saying. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 16:20:19
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Okay... so last night I had a whole page response here, but then when I went to ctrl-c it (because I've lost entire posts for timing-out issues), I accidently ctrl-v' it... thereby causing the exact result my 'forethought' was trying to avoid... I just can't win. 
Anyhow, the downside is I lost my post; the upside is, you guys got spared my usual long-winded blather.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Mark,
I have to disagree with part of your post. The GSL was never supposed to regain control over 3e. 3e is always going to exist and it will always be open source. Wizards CAN'T regain control over what is public domain.
Thus why some companies continue to create for 3e. That said, Wizards can control their material for 4e, which is what the GSL is for. It has nothing to do with 3e/3.5e because much of 3E/3.5E is still under the Open Gaming License.
Plus, the revised GSL STILL hasn't been released. Yes, Scott says he's working on it but it's been about.... six months now?....
I see others have already addressed this, but I feel a need to respond.
Yes, WotC can NEVER take away our rights to 3e... unless we sign them over to them. Thats exactly the nefarious purpose behind the GSL. If read carefully, it gaurantees absolutely NOTHING to the signee, and strips them of all rights to 3e material.
As one industry insider put it : "I've never seen a more one-sided piece of garbage"
WotC never expected people to stick with an old edition - that took them completely by surprise. What they expected was for all their competitors to line-up and sign the GSL so they could use the 'New & Improved' rules, and in the process take-back everything that was freely given to them - the right to produce 3e material.
Fortunately, the other companies were not stupid, and saw right through there scam. The GSL did not entitle the signer to anything at all - they would exist, from that point on, completely at the mercy of an unemotional corporation. The document specifically states they could strip-away a company's right to use 4e at any time, WITHOUT giving a reason.
And those rights would have been stripped from them all, five minutes after the last small company signed it, and there was absolutely no recourse for them, because the GSL also dis-allowed them to take Hasbro to court!
To me, it was clearly a way for them to crush the competition - the current WotC team obviously have 'designer envy', and they'd like to see all these 'other companies' just go way, putting the spotlight back on them.
Now, moving away form the ridiculous thing that the GSL is, we are faced with a new problem, directly relating to THIS board. As long as a company/website uses only 3e OGL material, it is untouchable. Problem for us is, FR material is NOT, and NEVER WAS, open source!
They could hit us with an ultimatum - sign the fansite policy or close-down, and their would be no way to stop that from happening - we currently exist at their 'tender mercies'. 
And the fansite policy could say that we are not allowed to develop ANY pre-1479 DR lore what-so-ever... then what? Does Alaundo sign it, and we watch CK disappear into dust after a few months? Or do you we 'suck it in', and re-imagine CK using the 4e lore?
I really don't see the later happening... AT ALL...
Here's what I think - THEY know all of this. They also don't want the humungous backlash that will follow, when site after site must be closed down, because they refuse to become '4e only'.
We will NEVER see a fansite policy for that reason. The second it is made public, they will be forced to enforce it - and create the worst PR nightmare D&D has seen since that kid went berserk and thought he was "in the game" (and killed people). They will be doing irrepairable damage to their own IP with that sort of backlash, and they know it... and it's the last thing they want.
No-one wants to go looking for a new job in this economy.
Ergo, they are purposely dragging their feet - perhaps forever - until they can come-up with some way around all of this. The way I see it, they are in the best position RIGHT NOW, because they can pick and choose their fights, and just ignore those sites that don't annoy them over-much (like CK).
The mythical 'Fansite Policy' will create a situation wherein they MUST go after everyone who doesn't sign - its very existance creates a PR/legal nightmare for them. The very best thing they can do - at this time - is to just keep dragging their feet forever.
After all, with all of us second-guessing them, they have already established the amount of control they wanted - people are afraid to produce anything new (like the Compendium here). They'd be idiots to produce a Fansite policy at this point.
At least, thats how I'm seeing it, but what do I know?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2009 16:25:05 |
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Wizards has shut down a character sheet site.
