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concerro
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 00:01:26
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All they had to do was pay the guy for the site since he was obviously doing things better than them. He would know the website was alive. WoTC would not have upset any fans, and they would also be keeping fans happy with that site until they got their digital content working.
It could have been a win-win-win. Now nobody wins. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 02:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I just don't see what's so wrong about the Candlekeep Compendium. I think of it this way: nearly everyone who plays D&D will at some point make up some house rule or lore to fit into their campaign. It doesn't make it cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of a profit. It is simply necessary to play the game. The Candlekeep Compendium is simply like telling your friends about some interesting ideas you had for your campaign. Again, it doesn't overwrite cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of profit. It does make it easier to run the game. In a case like this, where there is a highly morphic game involved, being a stickler about fan-made lore is going to destroy the playability of the game.
-It's very simple: Ultimatley, WotC owns the IP for the Forgotten Realms setting. Doing anything with it without their permission in a commercial way- limited or not- is violating copyright laws, and is making whatever individual/organization in the wrong, from the hard legal point-of-view. It can be something without any malicious intent (such as a Candlekeep Compendium, for instance, or making a Forgotten Realms fan-website) or something with malicious intent (such as hosting a website where people can pirate WotC sourcebooks), but in either case, it is being done, and WotC would have every legal right to do something about it. Generally speaking, the "problem" is extremely pervasive and commonplace, and there are no victims, in a sense, so WotC does nothing. As I said, WotC could, in theory, have every non-licensed website that has WotC non-public domain material shut down. Since these types of websites don't harm WotC, for the most part, it's just easier for them to let things as they are- going after these places accrues legal fees, employee wages, and all of that stuff. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 02:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Plus, the Compendiums could deny Wizards profit. There are many times that I'd rather use some fan material over something Wizards has produced. Especially now with the changes to the setting. I, and this is only me, will not purchase any material Wizards create for 4e FR because my version of the setting will never advance that far ahead and I ignore the changes, but if I find an article in the Compendium that is written for the old time line/setting and it fits in with my version of the setting, I might use that article instead. Thus, Wizards loses out of my money because I'm using a fan article that is published online instead.
In this case, it doesn't seem like the Compendium or something like it would be denying WotC profit. You don't like 4e, so you wouldn't buy 4e anyway. I know that's the way I feel about it too. Regardless of whether or not WotC cracked down on all fansites and refused to produce any more pre-spellplague lore, I would still not buy anything 4e. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 05:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by concerro
All they had to do was pay the guy for the site since he was obviously doing things better than them. He would know the website was alive. WoTC would not have upset any fans, and they would also be keeping fans happy with that site until they got their digital content working.
It could have been a win-win-win. Now nobody wins.
You're saying WotC should pay someone who is making money from something WotC already owns? How is this a win for anyone other than the guy? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 05:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Plus, the Compendiums could deny Wizards profit. There are many times that I'd rather use some fan material over something Wizards has produced. Especially now with the changes to the setting. I, and this is only me, will not purchase any material Wizards create for 4e FR because my version of the setting will never advance that far ahead and I ignore the changes, but if I find an article in the Compendium that is written for the old time line/setting and it fits in with my version of the setting, I might use that article instead. Thus, Wizards loses out of my money because I'm using a fan article that is published online instead.
In this case, it doesn't seem like the Compendium or something like it would be denying WotC profit. You don't like 4e, so you wouldn't buy 4e anyway. I know that's the way I feel about it too. Regardless of whether or not WotC cracked down on all fansites and refused to produce any more pre-spellplague lore, I would still not buy anything 4e.
WotC could claim that by offering a free alternative, we are keeping people from buying their products, and thus hurting their bottom line.
No, I don't think WotC is going to do that. But the fact is that they could, and the law is entirely on their side. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 11:37:24
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| I have to agree with Dagnirion and Rupert here - despite my oft-stated views on WoTC, I don't see how they could have done anything else given the fact that money *was* changing hands in a non-voluntary manner. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 12:05:50
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| The whole publishing on the internet is made oh so complicated because not everyone can publish something in a magazine, but ANYONE can publish ANYTHING on the internet...I'm thinking copyright laws might need to be tweaked, but IP still needs to be protected anyways...WotC has allowed most fan sites so far (such as this one)...it would be heinous for them to start banning them now (if they do, it would definately be out of spite IMO) |
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Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 16:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
The whole publishing on the internet is made oh so complicated because not everyone can publish something in a magazine, but ANYONE can publish ANYTHING on the internet...I'm thinking copyright laws might need to be tweaked, but IP still needs to be protected anyways...WotC has allowed most fan sites so far (such as this one)...it would be heinous for them to start banning them now (if they do, it would definately be out of spite IMO)
-Copyright and pirating laws have always been problematic, and things have gotten worse since the internet became a staple in society. Because of the internet, and because of globalization, a person's IP can be sent, in whatever form, from "here to there" with the click of a button. Numerous nation-states, because of this, have entered into long, tentacled treaties concerning protecting IPs across the globe. Many nations aren't signers of these treaties, however, and as such, aren't beholden to them. China is a very commonly cited example. Because China has entered into very few IP protection treaties, individuals in China regularly break what we (generally speaking) consider copyright laws. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 16:49:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
China is a very commonly cited example. Because China has entered into very few IP protection treaties, individuals in China regularly break what we (generally speaking) consider copyright laws.
So if for example someone in China did their own version of DDI, would they be allowed because the site is hosted in China (thus being exempt) or would they be forced to shut down because they are stealing the IP from somewhere where the IP is protected by copyright? (assuming they could do so if the scenario was DDI being created in China instead also)?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 17:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
China is a very commonly cited example. Because China has entered into very few IP protection treaties, individuals in China regularly break what we (generally speaking) consider copyright laws.
So if for example someone in China did their own version of DDI, would they be allowed because the site is hosted in China (thus being exempt) or would they be forced to shut down because they are stealing the IP from somewhere where the IP is protected by copyright? (assuming they could do so if the scenario was DDI being created in China instead also)??
The US could ask China to shut the site down. It would be up to China whether or not they did so. It's not a case of them being allowed to do it, it would be a case of them doing it and WotC not being able to stop it.
There is a lot of piracy of IPs and physical properties over there. I've seen pictures of knock-off action figures, a friend bought some pirated DVDs (some were of movies still in theaters here!) over there, some of my anime music CDs are unauthorized copies (the CDs were sold as new CDs and look like new CDs, but the companies making them had no authorization to be doing so; I didn't know the CDs were not legit when I bought them), and I've heard many tales of knock-off designer clothes, handbags, and electronics (including computer hardware and iPhones).
A complaint I've seen more than once about the RIAA and their lawsuits is that they are going after Americans, the little guys they can affect, and not the companies in China that are running off thousands of illegal copies of CDs, since the RIAA can't do anything to them. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:18:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
So if for example someone in China did their own version of DDI, would they be allowed because the site is hosted in China (thus being exempt) or would they be forced to shut down because they are stealing the IP from somewhere where the IP is protected by copyright? (assuming they could do so if the scenario was DDI being created in China instead also)??
-China is not a party to many international treaties concerning international copyright laws and policies, as are many other nation-states around the world. As such, the sovereign government of China (throwing out any legitimacy issues, and giving the PRC blanket legitimacy over China's borders) has the final say, when it comes to these laws within her own borders. The United States, as an example, is party to many of these international treaties, and as such, needs to maintain internal laws that do not violate the international laws, in order to not violate the conventions signed on this matter. The United States, or other nation-states, can request that China do things about, say, what would be violations of copyright laws according to copyright treaties that China did not sign, but ultimately, China has full and complete sovereignty over her borders and everything within, and does not have to listen or comply.
-What this means is that China (not the only nation-state that does this, but the most common example, and largest target) has free reign to do what she wishes, as she wants, within her own borders and boundaries. The United States (or other nation-states) can implore China to crack down on these kinds of activities, but ultimately, there are not as many international laws that bind China to enforcing international copyrights as there are other nations, such as the United States.
-So, in short, to put it simply, if the government of China does not "recognize" the rules, she does not have to "play" by the rules. Note, that it really isn't the government of China that primarily engages in this sort of thing (though, I wouldn't be surprised if the CPC encourages it, albeit quietly), but the actual people in China.
-Concerning your question, not fully knowing the exact treaties, or the exact text of the treaties that China has acknowledged as international law that she is willing to adhere to, I don't know. In theory, yes, it is very possible for a company in China to develop a very DDI-like application, and for corporations like WotC (or whoever else)to not be able to do much about it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:50:40
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To me, this is a sign of the prevalent malaise invading WotC's walls... when you don't make money anymore, you have lots of time on your hands 'cause work is slow, and you start holding for dear life to your patents and copyrights.
It's usually the first leak indicating the ship will be sinking at some point. Instead of plugging the leak, they are (prematurely) scrambling to scoop the water and throwing people overboard... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:58:53
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| -By all signs, WotC is making plenty of money. They have every right to protect their IP, as does anyone who has the IP of something. Companies are constantly doing stuff like that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Feb 2009 21:06:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 21:31:38
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I'm beginning to wonder something at this point... Is there anything WotC can do that won't in some way be perceived as either a negative action on their part, or that they're not making as much money as they'd like?  |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 22:10:38
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Well, I think the problem is that people see WotC as being part of a huge unfeeling company. And some of their business tactics seem to support this. Their business plan is much more aggressive and efficient that it was before, which makes people feel uncomfortable. I'm not saying that efficiency is a bad thing, it just makes things feel less personal. Some of the things that make me feel like they are a more aggressive company now include the fact that they are denying certain information unless you pay a monthly fee, they are trying too hard to appease a vocal minority that doesn't appear to really exist, they are trying too hard to pull in a new audience, but not putting much effort into retaining their old one, and they don't treat their settings in the unique way they used to.
They used to post articles and add-ons free on their website, but now you have to pay for the vast majority of new information on the site. Furthermore, I feel like they are not putting out articles at a fast enough rate to warrant the fee they are asking for. I'm more of the "one-time price for my roleplaying goodies" kind of person, but it seems like the value of DDi gets smaller and smaller the longer you remain on the service because they just aren't putting out enough new stuff.
People keep alluding to this mysterious D&D audience that thinks the Forgotten Realms had too much information in it. I don't understand the logic behind this opinion, and I haven't seen much evidence that this group even exists, yet WotC based their 4e decisions around the opinions of this invisible group.
This kind of follows along the same line of logic as the last point, but they are trying really hard to bring in a new audience, but they're not really keeping much there for the old audience to enjoy. As I stated above, they were trying to bring in a new FR audience, but also in the way they wrote the rules system for 4e, they really oversimplified it. I have heard complaints about how hard it is to learn the 3e rules because they are so complicated and require so much memorization. I would first like to offer the counterpoint that I learned the rules when I was 10 years old. I would also like to say that I think they went to far in trying to simplify the rules for 4e, and lost some of the beloved complexity of the game.
Finally, I feel like the settings really don't mean that much to them anymore. It seems to me that they are turning the settings into simplified backdrops. They don't have any plans to print any more FR sourcebooks, which says to me that they don't really care about it or consider it a valuable use of their time. I think every setting has a fanbase that really wants to see it more forward and gain depth, but they are completely throwing out any attempt at granting depth to settings in 4e.
All of this can be beneficial to a company trying to sell a product, because it saves money and cuts out a lot of risk, but that is all this feels like, selling a product. It doesn't feel like there is anyone there looking out for the interests of the fans, and I just don't get that warm happy feeling I got out of reading 2e and some 3e books. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 22:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm beginning to wonder something at this point... Is there anything WotC can do that won't in some way be perceived as either a negative action on their part, or that they're not making as much money as they'd like?
-Let's see...Here's what I'm guessing:
Completely reverse course and get rid of 4e, replacing it with either 3e again, or an "upgraded" version of 3e, like Paizo's ruleset.
Completely undo all of the changes made to the Forgotten Realms in the 4e updates, and plenty of stuff before that, going back, say, ten years or so.
Give away all of the money that they've made over however long WotC has existed as a company, and give it to assorted charities.
Exert however much political pressure is needed to sway Oslo into giving Ed Greenwood a Nobel Prize.
Sign Elaine Cunningham to a long-term, permanent position with great retirement perks.
Issue a "mea culpa" explaining how they were dumb, and the fans were right, and so on and so on and so on.
Move their headquarters from in the Seattle area to somewhere nicer. Let's go with Miami. Seattle, being all dour and rainy, has obviously put a damper on what WotC was able to accomplish. Miami is much nicer, and will obviously get those creative juices flower better.
-And, that's about it. Maybe. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 10 Feb 2009 22:38:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:05:02
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
All of this can be beneficial to a company trying to sell a product, because it saves money and cuts out a lot of risk, but that is all this feels like, selling a product. It doesn't feel like there is anyone there looking out for the interests of the fans, and I just don't get that warm happy feeling I got out of reading 2e and some 3e books.
See, I understand all this. But what I've been seeing, ever since 4E was announced, that any move WotC makes is being met with cries of "they're evil!" or "Haha, they're losing money on this mistake!". I'm just getting really, really tired of it.
It's become a knee-jerk reaction with people: mention WotC, and they automatically assume the worst. I know 4E and the Shattered Realms have pissed off a lot of people (myself included), but this is getting ridiculous.  |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I understand all this. But what I've been seeing, ever since 4E was announced, that any move WotC makes is being met with cries of "they're evil!" or "Haha, they're losing money on this mistake!". I'm just getting really, really tired of it.
It's become a knee-jerk reaction with people: mention WotC, and they automatically assume the worst. I know 4E and the Shattered Realms have pissed off a lot of people (myself included), but this is getting ridiculous.
I understand what you mean, I just think that people are still really ticked off with WotC and want them to fail out of spite. It's not my philosophy, and I can very much understand being tired of hearing it, but I think some people just need to vent. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I understand all this. But what I've been seeing, ever since 4E was announced, that any move WotC makes is being met with cries of "they're evil!" or "Haha, they're losing money on this mistake!". I'm just getting really, really tired of it.
It's become a knee-jerk reaction with people: mention WotC, and they automatically assume the worst. I know 4E and the Shattered Realms have pissed off a lot of people (myself included), but this is getting ridiculous.
My problem, beyond what they did to the Realms, is with the company itself. It no longer seems to view me (or us) as valued customers and instead views us as cash cows for it to milk. Because of this paradigm that I view WotC through, I find myself hostile to pretty much every move they make. I am trying not to be, and it might be ridiculous. But it is hard to bring myself to like someone who (figuratively) murdered one of my best friends and then brought him (or her) back as an undead effigy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 00:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I understand all this. But what I've been seeing, ever since 4E was announced, that any move WotC makes is being met with cries of "they're evil!" or "Haha, they're losing money on this mistake!". I'm just getting really, really tired of it.
It's become a knee-jerk reaction with people: mention WotC, and they automatically assume the worst. I know 4E and the Shattered Realms have pissed off a lot of people (myself included), but this is getting ridiculous.
I understand what you mean, I just think that people are still really ticked off with WotC and want them to fail out of spite. It's not my philosophy, and I can very much understand being tired of hearing it, but I think some people just need to vent.
Hells, I understand all that, too. And I want there to be just enough of a failure for them to have to reset the Realms back to something recognizable. Venting is one thing, but the automatic negative reaction to any mention of WotC is freakin' ridiculous.
I would have thought that we were smart enough to actually approach things in a reasonable manner. I'm now thinking I was mistaken for thinking that. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 00:12:07
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| I understand it all as well. It's actually kind of rare for me to knee-jerk to the 'evil', but they still find a way every once in a while to reach that level. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 00:49:10
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| i would be weary if i was the owner of any wiki site for 4ed or and specially FR 4ed, dont embark in any project of wiki or resource web sites until the long awaited fansite policy (which the guy that is meant to do it (the brand mananger) is most of his time trolling the internet looking for sites and resources (like sharing sites) and noting each one for hasbros) lawsuit to follow if compliance is not meet). the last time i heard he had in one night build a list of 9000 links where he could get books and others stuff. |
Purple you say?!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 03:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Portella
i would be weary if i was the owner of any wiki site for 4ed or and specially FR 4ed, dont embark in any project of wiki or resource web sites until the long awaited fansite policy (which the guy that is meant to do it (the brand mananger) is most of his time trolling the internet looking for sites and resources (like sharing sites) and noting each one for hasbros) lawsuit to follow if compliance is not meet). the last time i heard he had in one night build a list of 9000 links where he could get books and others stuff.
And is there a reputable source behind this info? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 03:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I understand it all as well. It's actually kind of rare for me to knee-jerk to the 'evil', but they still find a way every once in a while to reach that level.
See, if they actually did anything that came across as purely evil, I'd not have a problem with the reaction. But when all of their actions can be justified as legitimate business -- even when we don't agree with those actions -- then it's ridiculous to keep screaming about how evil they are. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 03:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Portella
i would be weary if i was the owner of any wiki site for 4ed or and specially FR 4ed, dont embark in any project of wiki or resource web sites until the long awaited fansite policy (which the guy that is meant to do it (the brand mananger) is most of his time trolling the internet looking for sites and resources (like sharing sites) and noting each one for hasbros) lawsuit to follow if compliance is not meet). the last time i heard he had in one night build a list of 9000 links where he could get books and others stuff.
And is there a reputable source behind this info?
I think Portella is speaking of the post by Scott Rouse on the WotC boards (here). To be fair, Scott mentions that he spent an hour doing this on a site that was listed as having 9000 violations. Not that he is spending his time looking for pirated books and found 9000. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 03:48:01
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He said the same type of reply over on ENworld a few weeks back about spending some of his time hunting down pirated material.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I think Portella is speaking of the post by Scott Rouse on the WotC boards (here). To be fair, Scott mentions that he spent an hour doing this on a site that was listed as having 9000 violations. Not that he is spending his time looking for pirated books and found 9000.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Feb 2009 03:53:14 |
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Wizards has shut down a character sheet site.
