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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 23:11:35
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Interesting post from Robert Daneri of Heroforge:
quote:
I would like to post a quick FYI to the readers of this thread.
This is a direct quote that I received at D&D Experience 2008 from Chris Perkins when talking about HeroForge. This comment was made right after we meet with Scott Rouse and Chris Perkins about working with WotC on creating an offline Character Gen for 4E that could work on all platforms and not exclude anyone. And yes we made it clear in those talks that it would not be free.
When asked "So Chris what do you think of our Proposal?" Chris says to me, "I don't like to weigh in on things with out to much thought but, We like the fact the programs like HeroForge exist. Not everone is going to like what we (WotC) might put out and compition is a good thing. At least if they don't like our Character Generator then they still have something to use that keeps them playing the game and staying with the hobby."
I even have emails from Scott Rouse telling us that the proposal will have to wait until after the Gold edition of the Character Gen is released, but to "Forge ahead" with our project. Even after he knew our plans to not be for free any more. But now they are going to do this sort of thing to a fellow competitor. Can we say monopoly.
Now I also know for a fact at GenCon the WotC character generator didn't have certain features in it that they do now. Funny thing is that those features didn't appear until right after we posted Screenshots of a couple pages of our app.
Also I know for a fact that a lot of the ideas of how we would build our app have been used by WotC in theirs, because of them saying at D&D XP that year, "we haven't been able to figure out how we should do that, what would you do?"
Stupid us I guess for being the nice guys and answering those questions.
I can guarentee that HeroForge has a HUGE target on our backs, and that we are on the 10 most wanted list at WotC. Sheets like ours and Emma's are the reason that they even cared about doing thier online tools in the first place. We have helped set the standard for what players and DM's want in a character Gen and now WotC wants to destroy us all because they feel we are a threat.
Maybe it is time that all of us behind the crosshairs see what legal rights we have in this matter. The fact that WotC isn't even interested in making a little extra cash from licensing their material to third party Gens is a little sad. In this economy any exrta is a good thing. Smart businesses would be looking for extra income, no matter how big they are.
I for one know that we are not ready to bring out the white flag and throw in the towel.
|
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 00:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Does this mean he'll sue Christopher Paolini?
-I don't know who that is. A quick Wikipedia search shows that he is an author who wrote "Eragon, Eldest, Brisingr, and an as yet untitled fourth book". Having never read any of those, all of that is meaningless to me, and I don't know how to connect the author and his books, and George Lucas.
-Regardless, George Lucas is indeed a stickler concerning protecting his Star Wars IP from being 'used' by others- however that entails- to benefit themselves without George Lucas receiving any 'cuts' (ie, payment for licenses to use his IP). Numerous entities, individuals, and companies have "felt the sting". Look at GenCon, for instance. I am not familiar with the situation, but from what I know of it, Lucasfilm suing GenCon is what made it file for bankruptcy. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 00:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Interesting post from Robert Daneri of Heroforge:
quote:
I would like to post a quick FYI to the readers of this thread.
This is a direct quote that I received at D&D Experience 2008 from Chris Perkins when talking about HeroForge. This comment was made right after we meet with Scott Rouse and Chris Perkins about working with WotC on creating an offline Character Gen for 4E that could work on all platforms and not exclude anyone. And yes we made it clear in those talks that it would not be free.
When asked "So Chris what do you think of our Proposal?" Chris says to me, "I don't like to weigh in on things with out to much thought but, We like the fact the programs like HeroForge exist. Not everone is going to like what we (WotC) might put out and compition is a good thing. At least if they don't like our Character Generator then they still have something to use that keeps them playing the game and staying with the hobby."
I even have emails from Scott Rouse telling us that the proposal will have to wait until after the Gold edition of the Character Gen is released, but to "Forge ahead" with our project. Even after he knew our plans to not be for free any more. But now they are going to do this sort of thing to a fellow competitor. Can we say monopoly.
Now I also know for a fact at GenCon the WotC character generator didn't have certain features in it that they do now. Funny thing is that those features didn't appear until right after we posted Screenshots of a couple pages of our app.
Also I know for a fact that a lot of the ideas of how we would build our app have been used by WotC in theirs, because of them saying at D&D XP that year, "we haven't been able to figure out how we should do that, what would you do?"
Stupid us I guess for being the nice guys and answering those questions.
I can guarentee that HeroForge has a HUGE target on our backs, and that we are on the 10 most wanted list at WotC. Sheets like ours and Emma's are the reason that they even cared about doing thier online tools in the first place. We have helped set the standard for what players and DM's want in a character Gen and now WotC wants to destroy us all because they feel we are a threat.
Maybe it is time that all of us behind the crosshairs see what legal rights we have in this matter. The fact that WotC isn't even interested in making a little extra cash from licensing their material to third party Gens is a little sad. In this economy any exrta is a good thing. Smart businesses would be looking for extra income, no matter how big they are.
I for one know that we are not ready to bring out the white flag and throw in the towel.
Okay, now that makes WotC sound like a bunch of jerks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 00:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Does this mean he'll sue Christopher Paolini?
-I don't know who that is. A quick Wikipedia search shows that he is an author who wrote "Eragon, Eldest, Brisingr, and an as yet untitled fourth book". Having never read any of those, all of that is meaningless to me, and I don't know how to connect the author and his books, and George Lucas.
I don't know about the book; I've never read any of them and I've been told I'm not missing anything. However, I was forced to sit thru the movie Eragon (we were at my parents' house and my wife and my stepmom wanted to watch the DVD). And if you've seen Star Wars, you've seen Eragon. Eragon is essentially Episode IV in a purely fantasy setting, except it's not as good. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 00:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, you are correct. If the sheets had been offered with full functionality and no payment-dependent features/bonuses, then WotC wouldn't have said anything. Even a PayPal link, asking for donations, would have been fine -- so long as nothing was contingent on that request.
-Two points:
(A) The 'official' D&D character sheet says at the bottom "Permission granted to photocopy for personal use only". The website, while free (as that is the hypothetical we're imagining here), is in wishy-washy territory, in terms of how "personal use" is defined.
(B) I don't know what the website in question looked like, save a vague remembrance that I have while looking for a custom character sheet a while back. Anyway, only the OGL material is free for anyone to use, in the Public Domain. If the website had images, direct quotations, or other whatever else from materials that are not from OGL material (Such as the FRCS, for example), the website would once again be in wishy-washy territory, in terms of legality.
-Ultimatley, though, it gets down to a willingness on terms of WotC's part to do anything. The paypal part of the aforementioned website, as well as character-generator/storage parts, are what separate it from other websites out there that do pretty much the same thing, but don't ask for solicitations. Wizards of the Coast could, in theory, go after ever website that has non-OGL D&D material without having licenses. It gets to a point where it is not worth it, on WotC's part. With most D&D websites, I think it is very much this, a lack of will to do anything, because of a lack of large-scale wrongdoing, in that it affects WotC in a negative way.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know about the book; I've never read any of them and I've been told I'm not missing anything. However, I was forced to sit thru the movie Eragon (we were at my parents' house and my wife and my stepmom wanted to watch the DVD). And if you've seen Star Wars, you've seen Eragon. Eragon is essentially Episode IV in a purely fantasy setting, except it's not as good.
-Good to know (to avoid!), then. I'll watch out for it... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Feb 2009 00:19:05 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 00:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Interesting post from Robert Daneri of Heroforge:
quote:
I would like to post a quick FYI to the readers of this thread.
This is a direct quote that I received at D&D Experience 2008 from Chris Perkins when talking about HeroForge. This comment was made right after we meet with Scott Rouse and Chris Perkins about working with WotC on creating an offline Character Gen for 4E that could work on all platforms and not exclude anyone. And yes we made it clear in those talks that it would not be free.
When asked "So Chris what do you think of our Proposal?" Chris says to me, "I don't like to weigh in on things with out to much thought but, We like the fact the programs like HeroForge exist. Not everone is going to like what we (WotC) might put out and compition is a good thing. At least if they don't like our Character Generator then they still have something to use that keeps them playing the game and staying with the hobby."
I even have emails from Scott Rouse telling us that the proposal will have to wait until after the Gold edition of the Character Gen is released, but to "Forge ahead" with our project. Even after he knew our plans to not be for free any more. But now they are going to do this sort of thing to a fellow competitor. Can we say monopoly.
Now I also know for a fact at GenCon the WotC character generator didn't have certain features in it that they do now. Funny thing is that those features didn't appear until right after we posted Screenshots of a couple pages of our app.
Also I know for a fact that a lot of the ideas of how we would build our app have been used by WotC in theirs, because of them saying at D&D XP that year, "we haven't been able to figure out how we should do that, what would you do?"
Stupid us I guess for being the nice guys and answering those questions.
I can guarentee that HeroForge has a HUGE target on our backs, and that we are on the 10 most wanted list at WotC. Sheets like ours and Emma's are the reason that they even cared about doing thier online tools in the first place. We have helped set the standard for what players and DM's want in a character Gen and now WotC wants to destroy us all because they feel we are a threat.
Maybe it is time that all of us behind the crosshairs see what legal rights we have in this matter. The fact that WotC isn't even interested in making a little extra cash from licensing their material to third party Gens is a little sad. In this economy any exrta is a good thing. Smart businesses would be looking for extra income, no matter how big they are.
I for one know that we are not ready to bring out the white flag and throw in the towel.
Okay, now that makes WotC sound like a bunch of jerks.
Yeah, but the question is, if they're using WotC's IP, how much legal footing do they have to protect the features that WotC supposedly ripped from them? |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 09 Feb 2009 00:44:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 01:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Yeah, but the question is, if they're using WotC's IP, how much legal footing do they have to protect the features that WotC supposedly ripped from them?
Again, I'm not a lawyer... But there's only so many ways to build a character. If WotC duplicated a design feature of another program, but did it with their own code, I don't think there are any legal ramifications. Now, if they copied the code, then they could be sued. But copying the end result? I don't think that's illegal at all.
It's like the Graphical User Interface that's so familiar to all computer users. Xerox invented the GUI, which is basically an easier way to input and manipulate data in a computer. Everyone else copied the idea, but the way they copied it -- the software itself -- was different. So even though they lifted all the ideas from PARC, they executed them differently, and thus didn't run afoul of any laws. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 05:28:21
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| It's also akin to Monopoly. Sure, you can't produce another game with Park Place and Boardwalk without Hasbro's permission, but you can produce a game that uses the same rules as Monopoly as long as you don't use their names. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 09:46:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I don't know who that is. A quick Wikipedia search shows that he is an author who wrote "Eragon, Eldest, Brisingr, and an as yet untitled fourth book". Having never read any of those, all of that is meaningless to me, and I don't know how to connect the author and his books, and George Lucas.
The plot of the Eragon novels goes something like this.
Young orphan, raised by his uncle on a farm. He discovers a dragon egg and that he is a member of an ancient order of knights, which were wiped out by the ruler of the Empire.
Uncle is killed by agents of the Empire, young orphan finds a mentor, who happens to have been a member of the knights and teaches him about his powers.
Young orphan, Aragorn, sorry Eragon goes to large forest to be taught by wise sage, who is/was also a member of the ancient order.
Anyway, that's as much as needs typing. The plot of the books follows Star Wars rather closely. Personally, I don't mind the books, they're certainly not high fiction, neither are they well-written but they make light reading and teach me which mistakes to avoid making.
My original comment was just a joke by the way. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 09:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Interesting post from Robert Daneri of Heroforge:
quote:
I would like to post a quick FYI to the readers of this thread.
This is a direct quote that I received at D&D Experience 2008 from Chris Perkins when talking about HeroForge. This comment was made right after we meet with Scott Rouse and Chris Perkins about working with WotC on creating an offline Character Gen for 4E that could work on all platforms and not exclude anyone. And yes we made it clear in those talks that it would not be free.
When asked "So Chris what do you think of our Proposal?" Chris says to me, "I don't like to weigh in on things with out to much thought but, We like the fact the programs like HeroForge exist. Not everone is going to like what we (WotC) might put out and compition is a good thing. At least if they don't like our Character Generator then they still have something to use that keeps them playing the game and staying with the hobby."
I even have emails from Scott Rouse telling us that the proposal will have to wait until after the Gold edition of the Character Gen is released, but to "Forge ahead" with our project. Even after he knew our plans to not be for free any more. But now they are going to do this sort of thing to a fellow competitor. Can we say monopoly.
Now I also know for a fact at GenCon the WotC character generator didn't have certain features in it that they do now. Funny thing is that those features didn't appear until right after we posted Screenshots of a couple pages of our app.
Also I know for a fact that a lot of the ideas of how we would build our app have been used by WotC in theirs, because of them saying at D&D XP that year, "we haven't been able to figure out how we should do that, what would you do?"
Stupid us I guess for being the nice guys and answering those questions.
I can guarentee that HeroForge has a HUGE target on our backs, and that we are on the 10 most wanted list at WotC. Sheets like ours and Emma's are the reason that they even cared about doing thier online tools in the first place. We have helped set the standard for what players and DM's want in a character Gen and now WotC wants to destroy us all because they feel we are a threat.
Maybe it is time that all of us behind the crosshairs see what legal rights we have in this matter. The fact that WotC isn't even interested in making a little extra cash from licensing their material to third party Gens is a little sad. In this economy any exrta is a good thing. Smart businesses would be looking for extra income, no matter how big they are.
I for one know that we are not ready to bring out the white flag and throw in the towel.
That seems like the last and best word on the subject, and it doesn't paint WotC in a good light.  Not one bit. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 09:59:02
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-So when did he blowd up the Death Star? 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I don't know who that is. A quick Wikipedia search shows that he is an author who wrote "Eragon, Eldest, Brisingr, and an as yet untitled fourth book". Having never read any of those, all of that is meaningless to me, and I don't know how to connect the author and his books, and George Lucas.
The plot of the Eragon novels goes something like this.
Young orphan, raised by his uncle on a farm. He discovers a dragon egg and that he is a member of an ancient order of knights, which were wiped out by the ruler of the Empire.
Uncle is killed by agents of the Empire, young orphan finds a mentor, who happens to have been a member of the knights and teaches him about his powers.
Young orphan, Aragorn, sorry Eragon goes to large forest to be taught by wise sage, who is/was also a member of the ancient order.
Anyway, that's as much as needs typing. The plot of the books follows Star Wars rather closely. Personally, I don't mind the books, they're certainly not high fiction, neither are they well-written but they make light reading and teach me which mistakes to avoid making.
My original comment was just a joke by the way.
You forgot: The Emperor was an member of this ancient order, and became a traitor, ensnaring some of his fellow brethren to become traitors. His most important and mightiest disciple is the father of Eragon. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 09 Feb 2009 11:44:52 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 13:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
You forgot: The Emperor was an member of this ancient order, and became a traitor, ensnaring some of his fellow brethren to become traitors. His most important and mightiest disciple is the father of Eragon.
Well, I didn't want to give away all the plot because he might want to read them. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 13:26:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-So when did he blowd up the Death Star?
He hasn't, not yet. But, he has met Dr. Who. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 13:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Mark,
I have to disagree with part of your post. The GSL was never supposed to regain control over 3e. 3e is always going to exist and it will always be open source. Wizards CAN'T regain control over what is public domain.
Thus why some companies continue to create for 3e. That said, Wizards can control their material for 4e, which is what the GSL is for. It has nothing to do with 3e/3.5e because much of 3E/3.5E is still under the Open Gaming License.
Plus, the revised GSL STILL hasn't been released. Yes, Scott says he's working on it but it's been about.... six months now?....
So if we were "allowed" to put out fan created FR material (CK Compendium) before, then wouldn't we be allowed to still, as long as it is 3.Xe??? (or would it be that they didn't enforce it before and would more likely do so now??) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:18:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
So if we were "allowed" to put out fan created FR material (CK Compendium) before, then wouldn't we be allowed to still, as long as it is 3.Xe??? (or would it be that they didn't enforce it before and would more likely do so now??)
-From a technical standpoint, anything unlicensed is a no-go, be it entire websites, use of images, use of non-OGL text, use of individual setting information, and all of that, without permission from WotC, the IP holders. That WotC doesn't/didn't enforce things is akin to a police officer not giving tickets (or any other kind of penalty) for jaywalking- it's still illegal, but it is so common, and there are so few actual "victims" that it is not even worth it to peruse anything, and is probably counter-productive to do so. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 16:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
So if we were "allowed" to put out fan created FR material (CK Compendium) before, then wouldn't we be allowed to still, as long as it is 3.Xe??? (or would it be that they didn't enforce it before and would more likely do so now??)
-From a technical standpoint, anything unlicensed is a no-go, be it entire websites, use of images, use of non-OGL text, use of individual setting information, and all of that, without permission from WotC, the IP holders. That WotC doesn't/didn't enforce things is akin to a police officer not giving tickets (or any other kind of penalty) for jaywalking- it's still illegal, but it is so common, and there are so few actual "victims" that it is not even worth it to peruse anything, and is probably counter-productive to do so.
That's a good way of putting it.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 17:42:36
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We could even though every time we did we violated Wizards IP because FR material was never included in the OGL. My other worry is this: Some people might want to create 4e material for FR for the Compendium while others, like me, want to stick with 1e/2e/3e lore. The GSL, again, which doesn't include FR's IP, makes it clear that if you want to create for 4e, then you shouldn't create for 3e.
So, the Compendium might turn into a legal nightmare. :) One because what we do write is already illegal. Two because of the 3e or 4e lore perspective, etc.
Do also remember, even though the link was broken last time I remember, that Alaundo also asks for donations to keep this site running. So, really, technically he does compete with Wizards in the terms of the material that is stored on this site and he "charges" for it by accepting money, which was what Ema was doing for server storage, which allowed people to store their own character sheets on his site, according to people on ENworld and Wizard's boards.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Mark,
I have to disagree with part of your post. The GSL was never supposed to regain control over 3e. 3e is always going to exist and it will always be open source. Wizards CAN'T regain control over what is public domain.
Thus why some companies continue to create for 3e. That said, Wizards can control their material for 4e, which is what the GSL is for. It has nothing to do with 3e/3.5e because much of 3E/3.5E is still under the Open Gaming License.
Plus, the revised GSL STILL hasn't been released. Yes, Scott says he's working on it but it's been about.... six months now?....
So if we were "allowed" to put out fan created FR material (CK Compendium) before, then wouldn't we be allowed to still, as long as it is 3.Xe??? (or would it be that they didn't enforce it before and would more likely do so now??)
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Feb 2009 23:20:14 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 17:59:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Do also remember, even though the link was broken last time I remember, that Alaundo also asks for donations to keep this site running. So, really, technically he does compete with Wizards in the terms of the material that is stored on this site and he "charges" for it by accepting money, which was what Ema was doing for server storage, which allowed people to store their own character sheets on his site, according to people on ENworld and Wizard's boards.
With a skilled lawyer, some loopholes could probably be found in this, where Alaundo could claim the money simply to maintain the server and not for profit, as well as it being "donations" rather than "must pay". That is if a legal battle were to occur, which I hope it never comes to that. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 18:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
We could even though every time we did we violated Wizards IP because FR material was never included in the OGL. My other worry is this: Some people might want to create 4e material for FR for the Compendium while others, like me, want to stick with 1e/2e/3e lore. The GSL, again, this doesn't include FR's IP, makes it clear that if you want to create for 4e, then you shouldn't create for 3e.
So, the Compendium might turn into a legal nightmare. :) One because what we do write is already illegal. Two because of the 3e or 4e lore perspective, etc.
Do also remember, even though the link was broken last time I remember, that Alaundo also asks for donations to keep this site running. So, really, technically he does compete with Wizards in the terms of the material that is stored on this site and he "charges" for it by accepting money, which was what Ema was doing for server storage, which allowed people to store their own character sheets on his site, according to people on ENworld and Wizard's boards.
I don't think it would count as charging, since there is nothing on the site that is dependent on donations. Ema's site, from what I've read, required a donation for full use of the site & services. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 18:41:56
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| I just don't see what's so wrong about the Candlekeep Compendium. I think of it this way: nearly everyone who plays D&D will at some point make up some house rule or lore to fit into their campaign. It doesn't make it cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of a profit. It is simply necessary to play the game. The Candlekeep Compendium is simply like telling your friends about some interesting ideas you had for your campaign. Again, it doesn't overwrite cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of profit. It does make it easier to run the game. In a case like this, where there is a highly morphic game involved, being a stickler about fan-made lore is going to destroy the playability of the game. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 20:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
We could even though every time we did we violated Wizards IP because FR material was never included in the OGL. My other worry is this: Some people might want to create 4e material for FR for the Compendium while others, like me, want to stick with 1e/2e/3e lore. The GSL, again, this doesn't include FR's IP, makes it clear that if you want to create for 4e, then you shouldn't create for 3e.
So, the Compendium might turn into a legal nightmare. :) One because what we do write is already illegal. Two because of the 3e or 4e lore perspective, etc.
Do also remember, even though the link was broken last time I remember, that Alaundo also asks for donations to keep this site running. So, really, technically he does compete with Wizards in the terms of the material that is stored on this site and he "charges" for it by accepting money, which was what Ema was doing for server storage, which allowed people to store their own character sheets on his site, according to people on ENworld and Wizard's boards.
I don't think it would count as charging, since there is nothing on the site that is dependent on donations. Ema's site, from what I've read, required a donation for full use of the site & services.
Ema only asked for donations to store sheets that you created using his program/site. You could still create as many sheets as you wanted to use, but the information wouldn't be stored, so if you needed it again, you'd have to re-create it. That part was all free. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 20:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I just don't see what's so wrong about the Candlekeep Compendium. I think of it this way: nearly everyone who plays D&D will at some point make up some house rule or lore to fit into their campaign. It doesn't make it cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of a profit. It is simply necessary to play the game. The Candlekeep Compendium is simply like telling your friends about some interesting ideas you had for your campaign. Again, it doesn't overwrite cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of profit. It does make it easier to run the game. In a case like this, where there is a highly morphic game involved, being a stickler about fan-made lore is going to destroy the playability of the game.
Yes, but there is a large difference between creating a house-rule and publishing a house-rule for others to use as well. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 20:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ema only asked for donations to store sheets that you created using his program/site. You could still create as many sheets as you wanted to use, but the information wouldn't be stored, so if you needed it again, you'd have to re-create it. That part was all free.
Well, yeah, but the end result is the same: for full functionality (saving the sheets), money had to change hands. As I said before, it doesn't matter what the money was used for, what matters is that you had to give someone money to be able to use their site to its fullest extent.
This site also asks for donations, but you can access every single thing on the site without ever paying a penny. As far as site features go, there is no difference between those who donate and those who don't. And that's why we're in the clear. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 21:56:45
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However, others are saying that wasn't so and he was only asking for donations for the use of storage space to store char sheets. So, it's really no different then what Alaundo does when he asks for donations.
No Wooly, as I said, others are saying that everything on Ema's sight could be used for free unless you wanted to donate money for storage space to store your char sheets. But this donation for storage space was optional.
So, I'm not sure who is correct here but there are many who are saying that no money had to change hands to access the material on the site.
And there are others saying that Ema wasn't offering full versions of material but only summeries and page #'s to the sourcebooks, so you would have to go look up the feats/spells/etc yourself. While others are saying that he was offering full versions of the material.
Who is correct? I'm not sure, but there's a lot of conflicting info about this coming from many sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it would count as charging, since there is nothing on the site that is dependent on donations. Ema's site, from what I've read, required a donation for full use of the site & services.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Feb 2009 22:21:17 |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Wow! I was only looking at that site last week. It was a very detailed resource. And now WotC have caused them to close down. I'm not sure if threatening your own fans is a productive policy.
My oh my, this was TSRs policy too during their deathrattle...
Well, no big wonder, considering a quick comparison between the last 3 years in purchases and the 3 previous years.
Even tho ive been earning better now.. even with 10% inflation :p
Some hmm.. 30 now (3 novels since the long quiet) vs atleast 200 a year previous. Any business that loses some 95% of their income is in big trouble..
Especially as profir is usually taken from only the top 2%. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:35:13
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The problem is, as it has always been with most of IP laws, is that its technically illegal for us to write material for Wizards IP. Making material for your own game is fine, that is under fair use laws, however, publishing material online is STILL publishing material for a IP that none of us legally own.
It's no different then if I write a story in my own setting and publishing it online. I own that story and if someone takes it and sells it to someone else, I could sue them for taking my copy written material. Or if someone publishes it on another web site without my permission, its still illegal. I own that material and I should be contacted before its posted anywhere else.
Publishing material online is still publishing it, the same as if it was published in a magazine/novel/etc. Wizard's OWNS that material and if they didn't want anyone creating for it, they have every right to tell us to stop. There is tons of material on this site that really, if Wizards wanted to, could get all of us in trouble.
This is why I've been arguing constantly, I know, that we should wait until we see what this new policy entails before releasing another Compendium. Even my Excel NPC lists make me really nervous because I don't own those lists, Wizards does.
Even on Enworld, right now, there's a debate going on about the use of artwork for avatars. Many are saying that the use of artwork shouldn't be allowed because either the artist owns it or other companies do. I agree, because, again, technically according to IP/Trademark/Copy Right laws, it is illegal to use.
Plus, the Compendiums could deny Wizards profit. There are many times that I'd rather use some fan material over something Wizards has produced. Especially now with the changes to the setting. I, and this is only me, will not purchase any material Wizards create for 4e FR because my version of the setting will never advance that far ahead and I ignore the changes, but if I find an article in the Compendium that is written for the old time line/setting and it fits in with my version of the setting, I might use that article instead. Thus, Wizards loses out of my money because I'm using a fan article that is published online instead.
But, I'll also say I'm not a lawyer and most of my replies are based on many different articles/books/new articles I've read ever since Napster got into trouble back in the 90's.
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I just don't see what's so wrong about the Candlekeep Compendium. I think of it this way: nearly everyone who plays D&D will at some point make up some house rule or lore to fit into their campaign. It doesn't make it cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of a profit. It is simply necessary to play the game. The Candlekeep Compendium is simply like telling your friends about some interesting ideas you had for your campaign. Again, it doesn't overwrite cannon and it doesn't deprive WotC of profit. It does make it easier to run the game. In a case like this, where there is a highly morphic game involved, being a stickler about fan-made lore is going to destroy the playability of the game.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Feb 2009 23:03:29 |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Pro bono or not, the fact still remains that, ultimately, it was going on without WotC's permission. Things with large fan followings, like, say, D&D or Star Wars or Star Trek, have plenty of "unauthorized" websites. If the estate of Gene Roddenberry, or George Lucas, or WotC, or whoever it is, wanted to crack down on all of these websites that use their IPs- even in the most innocent manner- they have, technically, every right to do so, in a legal sense.
What is morally right is rarely legally right.. and likewise. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:49:57
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these laws are too totalitarian
what about, ''remixing is ok'' ??
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
these laws are too totalitarian
what about, ''remixing is ok'' ??
It's not. Next time you hear a remix, check the liner notes. You'll see the original artist is still getting credit (and paid too). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wizards has shut down a character sheet site.
