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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 17:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I suppose I shouldn't have jumped on WotC so quickly as I'm getting a better idea of the real story behind this site now. The thing is, when I first saw this thread, it made me really scared that the end times were nigh for fansites in general. So it made me angry because I though WotC was making a stupid mistake, but I see now that they probably did the right thing.
See, that's all I want. I don't care if people get mad at WotC, I just want to make sure that if they do, they get mad at them for the right reasons. Again, it's part of my thing of only giving credit where credit is due.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 17:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm again seeing a lot of unwarranted hostility being directed at WotC. I'm not happy about 4E or the Shattered Realms, just like most of you. But come on, be reasonable! 
They had full legal rights to do what they did. And all they did was go after someone making money off of them -- which just about any company would do. WotC does not have to allow any non-official sites -- they could, if they wanted, shut us down. Would that be a good move? No. But can they do it? Yes, in a heartbeat.
Hard to say if the hostility is unwarranted. And it is fair to say that none of us know the full story. However, making a buck of someone else's work is wrong if they haven't given their permission. In this case, (and from what I know) the money he made only covered costs but it can still be said that he was making money, just not a profit.
But I guess some of the hostility has come from scrapping the OGL and the general 'harder'image being given out by WotC. They've shown a deaf ear to the concerns of many loyal customers. I don't think many of us readily feel that we can leap to their defence.
Anyway, to be flippant, with the release of $E Realms WotC have effectively closed us down.  |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 18:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Pro bono or not, the fact still remains that, ultimately, it was going on without WotC's permission. Things with large fan followings, like, say, D&D or Star Wars or Star Trek, have plenty of "unauthorized" websites. If the estate of Gene Roddenberry, or George Lucas, or WotC, or whoever it is, wanted to crack down on all of these websites that use their IPs- even in the most innocent manner- they have, technically, every right to do so, in a legal sense.
This reminds me of an FPS game (the name escapes me at the moment) that was modable and someone did a Star Wars mod and LUCASARTS had it deleted or somesuch.
But yeah, for the case of WotC shutting down this site, I agree if the guy was making money and it was something competing to an extent with DDI, but as an aside I'm still losing patience on the Fan Policy thing  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 18:13:40
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There's a lot of different opinions on what happened over on the thread on ENworld. Some say that he was only using pay pal to offset the cost of the servers, etc. He wasn't really making an income on anything because the money wasn't enough to pay for the servers, etc.
No, I'm not saying that is right to do either. But until either Wizards or Ema gives a better statement, no one knows the true facts.
However, people have every right to be angry with Wizards and telling people that they don't have the right to feel that way, would just annoy me even more. Shrug. If people want to be upset, LET THEM! Maybe their reasons for being upset at Wizards aren't your reasons but to the person feeling that way, they are being perfectly reasonable even if you don't agree with them.
Sigh.
Now, I'm going back to lurking. I delivered the news and I should have stayed out of this but after reading some replies in here, I wanted to comment. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Feb 2009 18:16:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 18:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm again seeing a lot of unwarranted hostility being directed at WotC. I'm not happy about 4E or the Shattered Realms, just like most of you. But come on, be reasonable!
They had full legal rights to do what they did. And all they did was go after someone making money off of them -- which just about any company would do. WotC does not have to allow any non-official sites -- they could, if they wanted, shut us down. Would that be a good move? No. But can they do it? Yes, in a heartbeat.
Hard to say if the hostility is unwarranted. And it is fair to say that none of us know the full story. However, making a buck of someone else's work is wrong if they haven't given their permission. In this case, (and from what I know) the money he made only covered costs but it can still be said that he was making money, just not a profit.
But I guess some of the hostility has come from scrapping the OGL and the general 'harder'image being given out by WotC. They've shown a deaf ear to the concerns of many loyal customers. I don't think many of us readily feel that we can leap to their defence.
I pretty much agree with you. And honestly, I'm not trying to defend WotC. If I could, I'd happily buy the company from Hasbro and either fire some people or at least make sure they could never touch anything FR-related again.
If people want to get mad at WotC for ignoring fans, I'm right there with them. If people want to get mad at WotC for ruining product lines, I'm right there with them. It's just that in this specific case, all the evidence I've seen leads me to the conclusion that WotC did not do anything wrong. In their shoes, I likely would have done the same thing, and I think a lot of the people here would have, too.
I'm just saying pick the right reasons to get mad. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3247 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 18:31:20
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Being a devout user of his sheets here's how the site was set up:
You could create blank character sheets for 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, Mutants & Mastermind and the Star Wars Roleplaying game. He's been doing these for years and in the last three, he's added functionality to be able to 'personalize' the sheets by choosing which books/settings the sheets display information from. The information was only lists of feats/skills and did not get into any 'rules'. The electronic PDF format sheets also had it set up so that it would do the calculations for you in most cases (e.g. you enter 18 in Strength, it would calculate the strength modifier and add it to the skills and attack bonuses, but it wouldn't calculate BAB from the classes).
Last summer, prior to the release of 4th Edition, he began hosting a Character 'Folio' (I don't recall what he called it specifically), where, for free, you could save an electronic version of your character on the site so you could download the PDF from there anytime you wanted. If you wanted to save more than one sheet, he asked for paypal donations ($5 for 4 characters, $10 for 15 I think).
When 4th Edition went live, the ONLY difference between the previous sheets and the 4th Edition sheet was that he included a Power's Cardsheet. It was a simple list of the powers and what they did, but it did not do the calculations for you. Ironically, the old Spellbooks that he created for 3rd edition was about as detailed as the Power Cards. The Spellbooks listed the title, the stats of the spell, the single line blurb description and the book and page it could be found. Likewise, the Power Cards listed about the same amount of information.
I wouldn't call what he did a character generator since you still have to figure out 85% of the calculations yourself and you couldn't do things like 'choose' items or apply feats. Items you would type into a text box and figure out the stats without help from the sheet. Feats were simply a check box that would mark that you took the feat, it wouldn't apply any skill modifiers or anything from what the feat did to other areas. The Spellbooks and Power Cards also would not calculate Saves or Damage based on information entered, but would simply state Ref Save or 2 damage.
I've got Ema's email at home (somewhere... I think...), I'll see if I can't get a bit more information tonight from a direct source. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 18:48:37
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That sounds like awesome functionality, good scripting and something that would benefit people who play D&D.
No wonder WoTC shut it down. Since they are too incompetent to outcompete free sites, they resort to the law. Go them. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 19:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
This reminds me of an FPS game (the name escapes me at the moment) that was modable and someone did a Star Wars mod and LUCASARTS had it deleted or somesuch.
-Yes, George Lucas is quite the stickler when it comes to protecting his Star Wars IP from unauthorized/unlicensed use. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 19:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
That sounds like awesome functionality, good scripting and something that would benefit people who play D&D.
No wonder WoTC shut it down. Since they are too incompetent to outcompete free sites, they resort to the law. Go them.
-And, the law is the law. If you break the law- no matter how innocently, unintentionally, etc.- you are breaking the law. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 19:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
However, people have every right to be angry with Wizards and telling people that they don't have the right to feel that way, would just annoy me even more. Shrug. If people want to be upset, LET THEM! Maybe their reasons for being upset at Wizards aren't your reasons but to the person feeling that way, they are being perfectly reasonable even if you don't agree with them.
I'm not telling people that they can't get upset. I'm asking that they don't get a knee-jerk reaction and pull out the "WotC is t3h evil!" banner just because something happened. I'm saying that if people want to get upset, that should be warranted.
People are screaming because a single website that was asking for money for someone else's IP got shut down. The guy was breaking the law, so WotC had every right to shut him down.
WotC also has every right to shut down the 8,001 websites that have free D&D character sheets on them. They're not doing that. No one is giving them any points for leniency, they're getting bugged by WotC telling someone they can't make money off of WotC.
I fail to see how my asking people to be reasonable is an issue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 19:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
No wonder WoTC shut it down. Since they are too incompetent to outcompete free sites, they resort to the law. Go them.
As for money for increased functionality means it's not free. Do a Google search and you'll find plenty of free character sheets that WotC hasn't shut down. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 21:54:04
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Scott finally has an update on some things, which are related to this so I'm sticking it in two threads.
"I know some of you are upset of about Ema's web site. I wish that I could explain it for you, but I can't talk about the details as this is a legal issue.
What I will say is that what happened with Ema's should not be interpreted as a war against fan sites. We value fan sites like ENWorld, RPGnet, Athas.org, Dragonlance Nexus, Candle Keep and the others that add to the D&D community while respecting our IP and business.
Also, we are still working on our fan site policy which will provide guidelines for the use of Wizards IPs moving forward.
Regards,
Scott Rouse" |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Feb 2009 21:54:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 23:42:14
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As for using their logos - you'll note that I only did that once... and that was taking a risk, despite it being the older 2e version. I have no right to any Forgotten Realms material, and that is why I say everything I produce - no matter how much work I put into it - is property of WotC. THAT, and not charging for it (and I've had offers) is how I protect myself... and them.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I just find it interesting that Ema has been doing this for years. Literally, I've been using his site since at least 2003. So why shut him down now?
Because 3e was 'open source', and 4e ISN'T. You cannot produce material for the 4e game system WITHOUT being licensed by WotC to do so - plain and simple.
If he was taking money, it doesn't matter. The site could still be said to be profiting off of someone else's IP, and if WotC did NOTHING to defend their IP, then it would have entered public domain, legally.
Which is something I can understand they would want to prevent from happening, and fully understand that what they did here - shutting down Ema - was not done in a malicious manner.
It was simply... business.
I'm the last guy in the world to defend WotC, but they did nothing wrong here.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but from what I'm reading here, his site wasn't just a character sheet -- it was a character generator, drawing from and including material he likely didn't hold a license for, and asking for money to do the whole shebang. He was competing directly against the DDI, even if he wasn't making a profit. It's no wonder they shut him down.
How would things stand if he has just asked for donations to help run the server, site, etc?
If, as you say, he was asking payment for each Char' sheet, and it was a non-profit site, legally he was still making money from someone else's product.
Doesn't matter - Two years ago they closed down the Sarbreenar site - a site that at one time was official, and part of the Living City Campaign. They did not WANT to shut them down - doing so ostracized a rather larger chunk of thier UK following - but they had to, because Sarbreenar was hosting games and selling materials for them.
All moneys collected by the Sarbreenar people was used for charity - THAT does not matter. Robin Hood robbed from the rich and gave to the poor... and it made him no less a thief.
You cannot make money off of a site that contains someone else's IP, even if it is only for 'maintenance'.
The world is paved with good intentions, but corporations have to - BY LAW - protect thir IPs or lose them.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I really don't understand why WotC hasn't put out an official fansite policy yet. Either they are lazy or purposely dragging it out for financial reasons.
Its actually VERY simple - the moment they do, everyone will start picking it apart to look for the loopholes. As long as they do not produce the policy, they can pick and chose who they go after, and NO ONE has a leg to stand on.
Once we have a policy, we have RIGHTS, and they are making damned sure they don't screw-up this time.
Look how long it took them to produce the GSL, and what good did it do them?
Their lawyers thought it was 'bullet-proof', and then folks realized the only thing they had to do was simply NOT SIGN IT.
They didn't think of that. 
The GSL was supposed to re-establish WotC's control over 3e, by eliminating everyones ability to use it, but they can only re-gain that control if you give it to them, and you'd have to be an idiot to do so.
They never, ever counted on the rest of the industry continuing to support 3rd edition.
You guys have heard that Necromancer has gone 3P as well, right?
Anyhow, dispite my usual rantings against them, they did what they had to, not what they wanted to - the last thing they want right now is another PR nightmare. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2009 00:19:53 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 00:38:03
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Mark,
I have to disagree with part of your post. The GSL was never supposed to regain control over 3e. 3e is always going to exist and it will always be open source. Wizards CAN'T regain control over what is public domain.
Thus why some companies continue to create for 3e. That said, Wizards can control their material for 4e, which is what the GSL is for. It has nothing to do with 3e/3.5e because much of 3E/3.5E is still under the Open Gaming License.
Plus, the revised GSL STILL hasn't been released. Yes, Scott says he's working on it but it's been about.... six months now?.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Feb 2009 00:40:05 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 05:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I pretty much agree with you. And honestly, I'm not trying to defend WotC. If I could, I'd happily buy the company from Hasbro and either fire some people or at least make sure they could never touch anything FR-related again.
If people want to get mad at WotC for ignoring fans, I'm right there with them. If people want to get mad at WotC for ruining product lines, I'm right there with them.
Fundamentally this is the tragedy of the situation. Many of us no longer want to defend WotC even when the law is on their side.
That's a shame. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 05:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How would things stand if he has just asked for donations to help run the server, site, etc?
If, as you say, he was asking payment for each Char' sheet, and it was a non-profit site, legally he was still making money from someone else's product.
Doesn't matter - Two years ago they closed down the Sarbreenar site - a site that at one time was official, and part of the Living City Campaign. They did not WANT to shut them down - doing so ostracized a rather larger chunk of thier UK following - but they had to, because Sarbreenar was hosting games and selling materials for them.
All moneys collected by the Sarbreenar people was used for charity - THAT does not matter. Robin Hood robbed from the rich and gave to the poor... and it made him no less a thief.
You cannot make money off of a site that contains someone else's IP, even if it is only for 'maintenance'.
The world is paved with good intentions, but corporations have to - BY LAW - protect thir IPs or lose them.
Isn't there a difference between asking for donations to help run a site and linking them to a product?
Ashe says that Ema was asking for payment for storage of character sheets. That link suggests payment for a product. Sarbreenar were selling materials. In both cases, the sites were asking for money for specific services which WotC either provide or issue licences for.
My question was, what if the site just asked for donations to maintain the site. A simple "The site needs money for its hosting server, please donate." Similar to how Wikipedia has fund raisers or PBS.
I agree with you that linking a service to payment is violation of IP. Just because you're not making a profit, or even making a loss, does not mean you are not making money.
As for Robin Hood, morally he was right. Legally, the people of the 13 colonies were wrong to rebel against their rightful king (even if he was as nutty as a fruitcake) but morally they were right.
In this case, if Ema was asking money to store WotC products then WotC were morally and legally right. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 07:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I pretty much agree with you. And honestly, I'm not trying to defend WotC. If I could, I'd happily buy the company from Hasbro and either fire some people or at least make sure they could never touch anything FR-related again.
If people want to get mad at WotC for ignoring fans, I'm right there with them. If people want to get mad at WotC for ruining product lines, I'm right there with them.
Fundamentally this is the tragedy of the situation. Many of us no longer want to defend WotC even when the law is on their side.
That's a shame.
It is. It is very much a shame that they should alienate fans the way thay have. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 07:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Isn't there a difference between asking for donations to help run a site and linking them to a product?
Ashe says that Ema was asking for payment for storage of character sheets. That link suggests payment for a product. Sarbreenar were selling materials. In both cases, the sites were asking for money for specific services which WotC either provide or issue licences for.
My question was, what if the site just asked for donations to maintain the site. A simple "The site needs money for its hosting server, please donate." Similar to how Wikipedia has fund raisers or PBS.
Well, I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, you are correct. If the sheets had been offered with full functionality and no payment-dependent features/bonuses, then WotC wouldn't have said anything. Even a PayPal link, asking for donations, would have been fine -- so long as nothing was contingent on that request. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 09:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
The GSL was never supposed to regain control over 3e. 3e is always going to exist and it will always be open source. Wizards CAN'T regain control over what is public domain.
Thus why some companies continue to create for 3e. That said, Wizards can control their material for 4e, which is what the GSL is for. It has nothing to do with 3e/3.5e because much of 3E/3.5E is still under the Open Gaming License.
Sure, but they can try to control the companies by forbidding to produce for 3.x when they are producing for 4.e. Thus they can dry up the market for 3e. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 16:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
The GSL was never supposed to regain control over 3e. 3e is always going to exist and it will always be open source. Wizards CAN'T regain control over what is public domain.
Thus why some companies continue to create for 3e. That said, Wizards can control their material for 4e, which is what the GSL is for. It has nothing to do with 3e/3.5e because much of 3E/3.5E is still under the Open Gaming License.
Sure, but they can try to control the companies by forbidding to produce for 3.x when they are producing for 4.e. Thus they can dry up the market for 3e.
True but it doesn't mean that 3e/3.5e is dead. :) Shrug. If people don't sign the GSL, it doesn't mean that Wizards has any control over material that is still released under the OGL. Mark said that the GSL is used to control 3/3.5e content, which isn't technically true because it really has nothing to do with 3/3.5e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 22:27:37
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-OGL has allowed Paizo to stick with 3E, or 3P if you like now. The GSL forces a company it stick with 4E and only 4E. Unless they create newer material for 4E and stick with 3E for older product lines. Necromancer Games was going to make A Tome Of Horrors for 4E. Now that Clark has seen the GSL and what it presently asks for, well Necromancer Games will probably stay 3E. The GSL is saying cross this line and never go back. Thats how I understand it. Clark has had some very good discussions about it on the Necromancer Site.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 22:40:49
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| I think it makes sense to prevent companies signing the GSL from printing anything 3e, but it doesn't really make sense for the companies to sign it. It would be more profitable for WotC if the 3rd part companies produce 4e products because it would indirectly promote their new product. Sticking to 3e is better for most 3rd party companies though, because they won't have the kind of restriction on what they can print as they would have in 4e. I'm glad that 3rd party companies are sticking to 3e though because I ultimately like the rule system better. I've had friends who complain about how the rules are so hard to learn, but I like the added complexity. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 12:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
George Lucas is quite the stickler when it comes to protecting his Star Wars IP from unauthorized/unlicensed use.
Does this mean he'll sue Christopher Paolini? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 12:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Isn't there a difference between asking for donations to help run a site and linking them to a product?
Ashe says that Ema was asking for payment for storage of character sheets. That link suggests payment for a product. Sarbreenar were selling materials. In both cases, the sites were asking for money for specific services which WotC either provide or issue licences for.
My question was, what if the site just asked for donations to maintain the site. A simple "The site needs money for its hosting server, please donate." Similar to how Wikipedia has fund raisers or PBS.
Well, I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, you are correct. If the sheets had been offered with full functionality and no payment-dependent features/bonuses, then WotC wouldn't have said anything. Even a PayPal link, asking for donations, would have been fine -- so long as nothing was contingent on that request.
Thanks for your answer, Wooly. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 14:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
George Lucas is quite the stickler when it comes to protecting his Star Wars IP from unauthorized/unlicensed use.
Does this mean he'll sue Christopher Paolini?
HA! 
Plots aren't protected by any kinds of laws. Character names are, and specific things like the names of vessels and races are, but plots aren't.
Besides, I'm doubting Christopher Paolini deliberately ripped off the plot -- he prolly thought it was original. Back in high school, I and a friend of mine argued about whether or not this character he thought up was a rip-off of another. His character was an elf named PreyPacer, who was called that because he could link his mind to that of the animals he was hunting. This was, according to my friend, not at all the same as the ElfQuest elf named PreyPacer, who was called that because he could link his mind to that of the animals he was hunting. He argued that one with me for months before admitting I was right. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 15:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
George Lucas is quite the stickler when it comes to protecting his Star Wars IP from unauthorized/unlicensed use.
Does this mean he'll sue Christopher Paolini?
HA!
Plots aren't protected by any kinds of laws. Character names are, and specific things like the names of vessels and races are, but plots aren't.
Besides, I'm doubting Christopher Paolini deliberately ripped off the plot -- he prolly thought it was original. Back in high school, I and a friend of mine argued about whether or not this character he thought up was a rip-off of another. His character was an elf named PreyPacer, who was called that because he could link his mind to that of the animals he was hunting. This was, according to my friend, not at all the same as the ElfQuest elf named PreyPacer, who was called that because he could link his mind to that of the animals he was hunting. He argued that one with me for months before admitting I was right.
Funny. What about character concepts? DC sued the publisher who had Captain Marvel (I forget the name of the publisher atm) because Captain Marvel was too similar to Superman. And, obviously, they won, so does that mean that characters that are too similar can cause a suit, or is it that superhero comics were a unique enough thing back then that they considered anyone else's ideas on the matter plagarism? |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 16:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Funny. What about character concepts? DC sued the publisher who had Captain Marvel (I forget the name of the publisher atm) because Captain Marvel was too similar to Superman.
Was the publisher Marvel comics? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 16:19:53
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| No, Fawcett Comics. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 16:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Funny. What about character concepts? DC sued the publisher who had Captain Marvel (I forget the name of the publisher atm) because Captain Marvel was too similar to Superman. And, obviously, they won, so does that mean that characters that are too similar can cause a suit, or is it that superhero comics were a unique enough thing back then that they considered anyone else's ideas on the matter plagarism?
I'm actually not sure what this lawsuit is that you're referring to; both DC and Marvel have used the name Captain Marvel, with some really different concepts behind them.
I think it has to do with the concept itself. Some concepts are too obvious and near-universal to have legal protection, like the farm boy who discovers he's really some sort of hero or the rogue with the heart of gold. Other concepts are fairly unique, like the alien who looks human, is the last survivor of a dead planet, and is a good guy with the abilities of flight, super-strength, and near-invulnerability.
Margaret Weis wrote a trilogy that is like a variant version of Star Wars, with the Force replaced by the powers of the Blood Royal - a genetically engineered (by eugenics, more than anything else) group of humans with what amounts to psionic abilities. They even had swords with energy blades -- but that energy was, in part, drawn from the weilder, and these swords could not be weilded by anyone outside the Blood Royal without contracting a very fatal (dead within hours, if not minutes) virus. And it even involved overthrowing the government, which was a corrupt one that had replaced the legitimate one, and one of the architects of this counter-revolution had been behind the original revolution.
Though her plot and some of the story elements were analogs of those in Star Wars, it obviously wasn't close enough for Lucas to feel like going after her. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 16:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
No, Fawcett Comics.
Ah, OK.
I recalled Marvel Comics having a Captain Marvel, which I read as a child. It's a long time ago now because I can't remember much about him.
Hmm, *tippity tappity*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel
Looks like there are a number of Captain Marvels.
Anyway, back in Topicsville... |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wizards has shut down a character sheet site.
