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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 00:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by jcdf
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
With the further clarification that Shou Lung is good/honorable China and T'u Lung is 'Evil China'.
Could you elaborate on this point please?
Well, it's been a while, but...
I see Shou Lung was being like China when it was under the better emperors/dynasties, the sort of China you'd find Judge Dee in. Whereas T'u Lung was described in the original Kara-Tur boxed set as having a weak central authority, with the nation divided into feudal 'kingdoms' under the great noble families. Most of whom seemed to be very nasty and utterly selfish as they were described. |
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Ousia
Acolyte
Denmark
9 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 21:23:27
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To Eladrinstar
Could you tell me why you identify The Silver Marches with Denmark? |
To be updated |
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Sinjin Oban
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 23:27:39
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I might note that if you read page 10 of "Questions for Ed Greenwood", (2009, I think) you can find a significant number of names for small estates around The Tashalar, but none of them conform to the stated Bantu language the area is supposed to be flavored with. Perhaps they were named during the Shoon empire's occupation?
Really this is just another example showing that while areas may have vague Earth influences to help flesh out ideas, they are not mirrors. I like being able to attach my original ideas to a place without having to conform too rigidly to a RW culture. I also appreciate being able to use pictures and sounds, (and food!) to conjure background for my players. |
Favored brat of Beshaba. (Which is just as awful as it sounds.) |
Edited by - Sinjin Oban on 02 Apr 2012 22:08:26 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 00:38:10
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| It's been said that Nexal is the Aztecs, and not the Mayans which I'm pretty sure is correct considering the very similar history, founding myth, and even capital city (Nexal Valley is very much like Tenochtitlan). If you want to find Mayan, I'd look to Payit and Far Payit. There is a number of other mesoamerican analogues in the area as well including an Inca like culture in Lopango to the south, and an Anasazi based culture in Michaca to the north (aka the Azuposi). |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
Edited by - Seethyr on 09 May 2011 00:41:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 03:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I always associated Shade with Ancient Rome (post the assimilation of Greek culture): columns, statuary, etc.
Agreed. And the Ancient Netheril is Greece. Even though Ed denied such association, there's so much about Netheril that screams Greece, decadence being the most notable one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 18:34:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I always associated Shade with Ancient Rome (post the assimilation of Greek culture): columns, statuary, etc.
Agreed. And the Ancient Netheril is Greece. Even though Ed denied such association, there's so much about Netheril that screams Greece, decadence being the most notable one.
-Chessenta is much more outright Greek. Netheril, I always got a sense of ancient Israel, actually- Hebrew words (or close facsimiles) are used in Netheril: Empire of Magic as names and places. The whole diaspora. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 19:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Agreed. And the Ancient Netheril is Greece. Even though Ed denied such association, there's so much about Netheril that screams Greece, decadence being the most notable one.
Being a professional academic specialised in the study of ancient Greece and Rome, I must point out that it is mainly Rome, not Greece, which has in the past and until now (at least in popular opinion) often been associated with "decadence." Historically, it is largely wrong and at any rate quite subjective (and for most scholarly purposes irrelevant) to associate "decadence" with either culture.
But admittedly, this thread/its underlying concept is based on stereotypes/clichés (which is fine by me, as it works nicely in entertainment contexts like RPGs and movies) so my criticism is quite irrelevant as well |
Edited by - Thieran on 09 May 2011 19:13:34 |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2011 : 02:58:49
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one of the older Dragon Magazines had an article that "matched" FR places with real world places
i'll try to look it up |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Sinjin Oban
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 21:03:44
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| I would point out that the pirates of the Pirate Isles and the reavers of the Nelanther are vastly different. The pirates of the Pirate Isles are more like the swashbuckling buccaneers of our history and cinema. They might even have some civilized behavior when the mood strikes them. The pirates of the Nelanther are blood thirsty Orcs, Lizardmen, Minotaurs, and the sort of humans who can survive such company. |
Favored brat of Beshaba. (Which is just as awful as it sounds.) |
Edited by - Sinjin Oban on 07 Nov 2011 21:06:01 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 21:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Agreed. And the Ancient Netheril is Greece. Even though Ed denied such association, there's so much about Netheril that screams Greece, decadence being the most notable one.
Being a professional academic specialised in the study of ancient Greece and Rome, I must point out that it is mainly Rome, not Greece, which has in the past and until now (at least in popular opinion) often been associated with "decadence." Historically, it is largely wrong and at any rate quite subjective (and for most scholarly purposes irrelevant) to associate "decadence" with either culture.
But admittedly, this thread/its underlying concept is based on stereotypes/clichés (which is fine by me, as it works nicely in entertainment contexts like RPGs and movies) so my criticism is quite irrelevant as well
Every culture (including modern ones) has decandence built in to it's every fiber. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Sousana
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 22:19:30
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To my thinking, Rashemen is the mythical Russia, where Thay is more analogous to cold war "evil Russia". It's about cliches and preconceptions, and deals little with the actual country. Thay says more vabout western views than about Russia. It's not the only instance either. There are no less than FOUR pseudo-arabic cultures around. The bedine are the bedouins, zakhara has mythic Arabia, Calimshan has more of a historic arabian feel, and we know too little about Raurin to tell. About the China versions, I believe this was discussed in Dragon somewhere. They put in two different historic eras.
But... Silver marches, High forest, Sossal as the nordic countries? Sossal and Iceland sounds reasonable, but the rest is weird. I believe the correspondence between countries is weaker in the heartlands, the regions mostly described by Ed, than the outlying areas, mostly described by others. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 22:30:08
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I have to ask: mythical Russia?
Are you referring to a nation of Sarmations or Kurgans, a predecessor of the barbarian cossack cavalry cultures? Russia itself, that is the area near what are now Kiev and Leningrad, was influenced more by Scandinavian and Mongol peoples than by the Slavic and Gothic sorts it is nominally associated with. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 23:40:48
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Does this mean I have to stop running drow with French accents?
Alas, c'est la vie. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 00:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Does this mean I have to stop running drow with French accents?
Alas, c'est la vie.
Cheers
"You don't frighten us, Elvish pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person! I blow my nose at you, so-called Am-laruil Queen, you and all your silly Elvish K-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-niggits!"  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Nov 2011 00:22:07 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 03:13:31
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Luskan reminds me of what the Philippines used to be during the time of Spanish colonization. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 03:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Does this mean I have to stop running drow with French accents?
Now I will never get that out of my head. I finally understand why they like raw meat, pickled brains, snails, etc... 
And Bregan D'Aerthe - how could I have missed that? Sounds Gaulic Gallic (french-Celtic), something akin to 'brotherhood of the earth', or perhaps even 'beneath the earth'. I had always pictured Jarlaxle as one of the Three Musketeers, but now I'm thinking Cyrano de Bergerac (considered one of the finest swordsman, ever).
Now I have to ask Ed if there is such a thing as 'Drow-Kissing', 'Drow-Toast', 'Drow-fries', etc. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sousana
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 03:32:04
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Drow maids, a painful experience.
Everyone knows the drow are wicked because there is nothing in their diet beyond spiced wine and mushrooms. You'd grow grumpy too after a few centuries. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 14:38:31
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Thay is North Korea. Cormyr is England. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 14:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Thay is North Korea. Cormyr is England.
Shou'lung is China |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 15:18:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Thay is North Korea. Cormyr is England.
So Saith Ed, on Thay:-
quote:
Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it: NOT Oriental human subraces, but rather a warm-climate, dusty-part-desert old and decadent slave empire ruled by people who had mastered powerful magic, shaved their heads (think: Moondragon of Marvel Comics fame), and were cruel by western standards. There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors that in the old days were “patronage appointments” given to nobles by reigning royalty, and that were increasingly being seized by zulkirs and filled by themselves or their (militarily capable, ruthless) appointees. Szass Tam was a bit of a restless maverick among the zulkirs, so to stay on top against BOTH his fellow zulkirs and the royalty, he’d have to be super-powerful, and a man who’d been anticipating attacks and treacheries for centuries and preparing for them: he always had a Plan B and C, and X, Y, and Z, all of which he could shift like puzzle pieces to respond to any threat and deflect or shatter it (usually deflect it so as to harm a rival).
And, Ed on Cormyr:-
quote:
I created Cormyr to have the Sherwood Forest/Arthur and his galloping knights of the Table Round “feel,” but to be a distinct kingdom with quite a different history. Imagine the fictional court of Camelot - - all the bickering knights, that is - - and see what happens if a royal line manages to hold the throne for centuries. Quite different from all of the fictional depictions of Arthur, who creates his own great kingdom, far more powerful than what existed before him - - a kingdom that either declines (through Constantine) or is swept away entirely after his death or departure, depending on which sources or versions of the Arthurian mythos one embraces most closely.
The various approaches to Arthur (the Christian king; the Celtic or Welsh king of England repelling or withstanding Germanic foreigners; the Celt holding together civilization after the departure of the Romans; the predestined king who fulfills his destiny, and so on) are all quite different from the concept of the Dragon Throne of Cormyr and the Obarskyrs who’ve held it. (Elves take land from dragons, arriving human settling family manages to establish a settlement, and holds it almost continuously for over a thousand years, withstanding all challenges in various ways and in the process building a strong kingdom.)
The term “Imperial Britain” of course refers to the far more recent, historical British empire (wherein the English sailed wooden ships all over the world to conquer, occupy, and exploit distant territories such as India, Canada, the colonies that later became the United States, and so on), and of course Cormyr has never had imperial ambitions. Its armies stay at home, beyond temporary occupations of pirate ports such as Teziir, patrols along its fringes (Tunland, the West Reaches, the Stonelands), and naval skirmishes with Westgate and Sembia that arise only when Cormyr is trying to keep those two rivals from cutting off access to Marsember and Suzail. So Cormyr has no correspondence whatsoever to “Imperial Britain.” Sorry.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 15:30:10
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Ah. My comparisons are near enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 19:34:17
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Not to be rude, but near enough for what?
Sage has just posted how they AREN'T what you say they are. To paraphrase Inigo Montoya: I do not think the words you read mean what you think they mean.
And this is a long, long running hobby horse: how Ed wants the Realms, because TSR wanted them to host adventuring in jungles, deserts/Arabian Knights, pirates, crumbling castles and knights in shining armor, etc., to EVOKE some impressions of real-world cultures (or fictional cultures) but not be COPIES of those cultures...but some later designers do try to copy some cultures...and ever since, scribes here, and other gamers, try to play the game of "Ed based this part of the Realms on that part of our real history"...when it explicitly isn't true.
When you say That is North Korea, which version of Thay? And which version of North Korea? 
BB |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 04:00:16
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[Am I hearing voices? ]
Let me take back what I said about Luskan. The Philippines during the American indoctrination was like Luskan. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 23:51:33
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Yes, you're hearing voices, Dennis.
As usual, they're telling you your Realms opinions are wrong.
And they are just that: opinions.
To quote James Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your own opinions. You are NOT entitled to your own facts."
No matter how often or loudly you say this is Greece and that is England and so on, Ed designed the Realms WITHOUT direct real-world analogues. Some later designers (Troy putting the Dalai Lama in the Realms, for instance) stepped over the line and made direct analogues, but Ed didn't.
If you find it convenient to use a real-world analogue when playing your own campaign, fine. But you've said before that you don't play the game and "see" the Realms only through its fiction, so...thinking of specific real-world places while reading fiction will lead you to wrong conclusions and judgments. And if you post those judgments, you will be insulting the various writers who weren't "copying" what you think they're copying.
love,
THO |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 00:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
To quote James Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your own opinions. You are NOT entitled to your own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan?
I am guessing when Ed's latest tome arrives, not only will we not see any screamingly obvious real-world clones (Maztica), but that it will be, at best, 'parallel development' - there may be elements that remind the reader of X or Y, but entirely indigenous.
- OMH |
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Cultural Theft...
