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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Dec 2008 : 20:12:29
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Hi!
Last night, taking a look in the Players Guide to Faerun 4ed with one of my players, he noticed that the clothes in the illustration of the Simbarch (Page 62) is similar to 3.5 Elminster's clothes.
I don't know why. Pehaps the connection between Simbul and Elminster.
Maybe there are some other explanation, or maybe the illustrator (Warren Mahy) was just out of ideas.
What do you think?
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Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
Edited by - IngoDjan on 05 Dec 2008 20:15:37
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2008 : 20:46:33
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This was brought up on the WotC boards awhile back, and lots of crazy theories were discussed, but nothing was ever resolved.
It doesn't just look like Elminster's clothes - those are Elminster's clothes! She's even got his pipe!
EDIT: For those of you without access to that tome, here is a link to the pic in question. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2008 06:03:37 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2008 : 23:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-It's Elminster in disguise! (Not really, but...)
Elminster in elf form! Gayminster! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 00:51:44
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WTH  
I seriously wonder if there will be some connection? I mean, it is uncanny...not a resemblance; but like Markustay said: they ARE his clothes...if a bit tight at the waist.
Weird. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 01:09:32
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| I still think it was most likely just an inside joke. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 01:13:12
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I'd like to think that it was done on purpose and then (wait for it...) NOT explained. This was what I enjoyed about 3rd ed...lots and lots of lore with lots of unanswered questions. So far, 4th ed hasn't exactly followed suit IMHO.
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 06 Dec 2008 01:18:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 02:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I still think it was most likely just an inside joke.
-Personally, I don't think so. I think the artist was commissioned to draw "The Simbarch of Aglarond", didn't know much about the setting, used Elminster as his basis of comparison, and boom, there you go. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 02:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I'd like to think that it was done on purpose and then (wait for it...) NOT explained. This was what I enjoyed about 3rd ed...lots and lots of lore with lots of unanswered questions. So far, 4th ed hasn't exactly followed suit IMHO.
-Blech. Are you kidding? Third Edition was the worst for that. Third Edition sourcebooks "solved" plenty of mysteries that were mysteries up until that point. The omniscient narrator can't help but do that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 03:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It should be fairly obvious what this is.... It's Elmara! 
ahh, ya beat me to it |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 06:16:43
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Actually, I said that a LONG time ago in the WotC thread...
But then someone pointed out to me that Elmara wasn't an Elf. 
My line of reasoning was that it was probably an old piece of art, commissioned to be used for Elmara, but then never got used, so they just threw it in there.
However, as I said, someone pointed out the problem to me of her pointy ears (not to mention the Blonde hair; Elmara was Raven-haired, IIRC).
It could be as simple as the Simbarchs copying El's clothes, thinking (in the future) that they were some sort of symbol of authority during the time of their fabled ruler (The Simbul probably had a closet full of extras, just in case). Or Elminster could of even been partly responsible, if he set-up the order to begin with (after all, something bad happened to the Simbul and he's taking care of her) to watch over Aglarond in her abscence, they may have adopted similar clothes out of a bizarre show of respect.
Enter.... The Elminster Corps!
Way better then a the silly ol' Green Lanterns, and a Pipe is just so much cooler then a ring.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Dec 2008 16:50:48 |
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 15:17:20
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But, what I think is too strage, is the fact that Elminster in 3.0 FRCS abandoned his original clothes!!! The clothes everybody that played AD&D FR already know. The pointy hat, the staff and stuff.
When my friend notice that, we just finished to look Shadowdale AD&D Supplement and compare Elminster clothes in that book, in 3.0 FRCS and in 4ed FRCS. The similarity of Eminster clothes in Shadowdale Supplement and 4ed are notorious. So in the Simbarch and 3.0 clothes.
Misteries of WotC!! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 16:47:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, I said that a LONG time ago in the WotC thread...
But then someone pointed out to me the Elmara wasn't an Elf.
My line of reasoning was that it was probably an old piece of art, comissioned to be used for Elmara, but then never got used, so they just threw it in there.
However, as I said, someone pointed out the problem to me of her pointy ears (not to mention the Blonde hair; Elmara was Raven-haired, IIRC).
It could be as simple as the Simbarchs copying El's clothes, thinking (in the future) that they were some sort of symbol of authority during the time of their fabled ruler (The Simbul probably had a closet full of extras, just in case). Or Elminster could of even been partly responsible, if he set-up the order to begin with (after all, something bad happened to the Simbul and he's taking care of her) to watch over Aglarond in her abscence, they may have adopted similar clothes out of a bizarre show of respect.
Enter.... The Elminster Corps!
Way better then a the silly ol' Green Lanterns, and a Pipe is just so much cooler then a ring.
-Another problem with that theory is that the drawing seems to be in the style of the Fourth Edition artwork, which is noticeably different from Third Edition, and leagues away from the Second and First Edition stuff. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2008 : 17:06:08
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Bear in mind that The Annotated Elminster was only released recently, which is what I was thinking about. New art was commissioned for the Drizzt novels, and I thought, perhaps, that piece was one of several submitted for the new/old Greenwood novels.
It could even be that the artist did intend Elmara, but got it completely wrong (the ears and the hair), so the piece was never used as intended and just 'filed away'. Enter the 'new regime' and their penchant for 'cutting corners', and I'm sure a perfectly good piece of unused art would have seemed serendipitous.
At least, that was my theory. It is far more likely that someone was making a joke. The idea was to get rid of the 1e/2e/3e tropes of FR, and Elminster being one of them, they probably thought it would be funny as hell if the Simbarch "killed him and took his stuff".
Not that El died litarally, but his down-grade is indeed a type of death from his original presentation.
My previous post got me thinking, though....
Even though I was making a joke, the one thing Elminster was known for (aside from frolicking with young maidens) was he his magical aptitude, and his uncanny 'preparedness' in every situation. We know his pipe was really a powerful artifact, and that he did indeed keep several spares. Lets take that a step further...
What if his 'costume' had similar attributes? What if all sorts of protections and dweomers were woven into his attire (perfectly reasonable, given who he was and his abilities)? His chain-contingencies might have been added as well.
Now if we take my little joke earlier, about the Simbul having a closet full of spare 'Elminster Suits', seriously, and the leaders of Aglarond happened upon them...
It would make perfect sense to me if they all put one on. 
Oh, and magical clothing always re-sizes itself to fit perfectly, so that's just one more thing that makes this plausible (notice the snug fit on that lass). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Dec 2008 17:09:26 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 03:33:13
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quote:
Last night, taking a look in the Players Guide to Faerun 4ed with one of my players, he noticed that the clothes in the illustration of the Simbarch (Page 62) is similar to 3.5 Elminster's clothes.
Here's my theory from the WotC forum thread:
There's something interesting from the FRCG, and it perhaps adds a whole different "take" on this elf-girl picture:
"One simbarch, Seriadne, takes the form of an elf but is actually a malaugrym who seeks to advance her own sinister agenda."
What if the picture is of the malaugrym Seriadne? At some point, perhaps this malaugrym actually fought Elminster and stole his things? Now it appears as this elf girl and wears the clothes and pipe as a sort of weird trophy? Heh! :D
It might be that this picture was commissioned for a story about El and the malaugrym that never made it into the book because of editing. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 05:52:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Way better then a the silly ol' Green Lanterns, and a Pipe is just so much cooler then a ring.
So whats in the pipe Markus? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2008 : 05:59:06
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Magical Herbal substances.
The kind that make you see earthmotes.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
"One simbarch, Seriadne, takes the form of an elf but is actually a malaugrym who seeks to advance her own sinister agenda."
Interesting...
Since El has beaten a Malaugrym a time or two in the past, it could also be some type of weird 'enemy worship', wherein the Malaugrym - being very alien to our thinking - may be doing whatever it can to copy that races nemesis - namely Elminster. For all we know, the thing could think his clothes have something to do with it.
I know thats a weird theory, but no stranger them most of my other ones.
I like yours better anyway - that almost makes the malaugrym like the Predators - they take 'trophies'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2008 06:04:10 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 14:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, as I said, someone pointed out the problem to me of her pointy ears (not to mention the Blonde hair; Elmara was Raven-haired, IIRC).
All true. One could say that it's Elmara in a magical guise, but then you could say that Elmara is in every picture using a magical guise. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 14:09:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I'd like to think that it was done on purpose and then (wait for it...) NOT explained. This was what I enjoyed about 3rd ed...lots and lots of lore with lots of unanswered questions. So far, 4th ed hasn't exactly followed suit IMHO.
-Blech. Are you kidding? Third Edition was the worst for that. Third Edition sourcebooks "solved" plenty of mysteries that were mysteries up until that point. The omniscient narrator can't help but do that.
Seconded. I thought things seemed less mysterious in 3E. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Dec 2008 14:10:10 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 15:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
All true. One could say that it's Elmara in a magical guise, but then you could say that Elmara is in every picture using a magical guise.
-Just like Storm in AGHotR.
-On a separate tangent, I never got why people always have chronic snickering concerning pipes and pipe weed in fantasy literature (especially Lord of the Rings). Pipeweed is pipeweed, it's nothing bad. I don't get it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 17:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
All true. One could say that it's Elmara in a magical guise, but then you could say that Elmara is in every picture using a magical guise.
-Just like Storm in AGHotR.
-On a separate tangent, I never got why people always have chronic snickering concerning pipes and pipe weed in fantasy literature (especially Lord of the Rings). Pipeweed is pipeweed, it's nothing bad. I don't get it.
They're smoking weed, man, weed! 420!
Ahem. I've worked with a lot of those types of folks, back when I was stuck working in restaurants. Despite never touching the stuff myself, I learned a lot about it, back then. Kitchen guys can be an interesting breed... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 18:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Yes, pipeweed. A tobacco equivalent, not a marijuana equivalent. Like I said, I never got the snickering, and assigning pipeweed as something "bad".[/tangent]
You never got it because you aren't the kind of person to look for and delight in connections like that. For some people, any mention of the word "weed" is enough to get them started... It reminds me of a bit from an early episode of the Simpsons. Homer: "But Marge, you know me! I still giggle like a schoolgirl whenever I heard the word 'titmouse'. Tee-hee!"
Anyway, I concur that we have threadjacked this topic enough. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2008 : 23:00:53
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| A range of plants are smoked, with different psychogenic and medicinal effects: for instance, Elminster smokes thalander and phaelder rather than tobacco -- which is widely available, and more often called tobacco than pipeweed though there may be a Realms term we've not yet heard. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Simbarch of Aglarond's uniform
