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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1863 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2019 :  12:21:09  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

See page 35 of this thread.

-- George Krashos


Ah, that's what I was looking for!

Inevitably, I have some questions.

First of all, there is no mention of beer where malted wheat is used to supplement or replace the malted barley. Of course, unless the Realms climate and agriculture are utterly foreign to us Earthlings, such beers will be commonplace anywhere wheat is more plentiful than barley.

A cursory examination of Realms sources has not revealed any mention of such beers that I can find, but I consider absence of evidence no evidence of absence and conclude that it is most likely that such beers haven't been mentioned because most of the focus of Volo's Guides and similar supplements has been on regions where different beer styles are more popular.

In general, in the northern lands of the Realms, wheat is harder to grow and therefore more expensive. With barley being hardier, it's not hard to see why the Swordcoast North would be known mostly for ales that use mostly malted barley, such as stouts.

Climate-wise, however, anywhere wheat grows in plenty, there could be a local taste for beer styles using malted wheat. And while Waterdeep is too far north for wheat to be truly cheap there, I would be very surprised if there was not a some kind of wheat ale made at Goldenfields, for example.

Given that we have somewhat detailed descriptions of the cuisine of the Western Heartlands, the Swordcoast, the Daleland and Cormyr from the various Volo's Guides, I'd consider the ales mentioned in them a reasonable cross-section of popular styles in those regions. Furthermore, from novels and the like, Sembia seems similar to their neighbours in Cormyr and the Dales in most agricultural matters, as well as being decent wine-country.

Much of the Lands of Intrigue are southerly enough to be suitable for vineyards, which tends to reduce ale and beer demand, but both Amn and Tethyr likely have significant local beer traditions, some of which might make use of wheat.

By the same token, most of the southern shores of the Sea of Fallen Stars are known for their wine production, not their ales and beers.

So, if I want to feature wheat beers in the Realms, I figured that the Vast, Impiltur, Damara and Thesk were good potential areas for such beers to be regionally popular.

Where would you locate the most famous wheat beer breweries in the Realms?

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

BEER & ALE

Much of the beer production in Impiltur is concentrated in the cleared lands between Hlammach and Dilpur where cereal crops including barley are grown. The two cities are rivals in this regard and both produce slightly different products. In Hlammach, most of the barley is dried using coke, which gives it a lighter hue, while the "traditional" fire-dried barley used in the beers and ales of Dilur give them a darker hue. More recently, beer from farming communities (known as "thaedar") in the Uplands have become all the rage in the major cities of the realm. These beers are different again in that they use wild hops that provide a more bitter taste, one that connoisseurs regard as indicative of high quality.

The coke-fired ales of Hlammach are clearly analogous to Earth-made pale ales. What about the darker ales of Dilur? Do you imagine them being like real-world porters, stouts or brown ales? Or do examples of all three exist?

What real-world beer or ale would be closest to the bitter ales made with wild hops in Upland thaedar? What do people in Impiltur and the Vast call such ales or beer?

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2019 :  16:14:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Say, George, what can you tell us about etiquette, good manners and 'the done thing' in Impiltur?

<BIG SNIP>

Basically, when I've got numerous characters aspiring to idealized Impiltur upper-class values, for some of them raised to them and others gotten from books, what are those values and how do they clash?



Wow, big question. And I don't have the brilliance of Ed Greenwood for this type of stuff. But I've had a go and hopefully this answers your queries:

Marriage

For a non-noble or royal, formal marriage exists only in a religious sense in that some churches, including the Triad, will host services where two individuals are joined in the eyes of the faith. Such services are usually reserved for actual clergy of a deity or very devout lay worshippers, who pay well for the privilege of having their union blessed by the god in question. More commonplace is a simple, informal union which we in the real world would call a “common-law” marriage, where a couple simply declare or demonstrate that they are in a monogamous relationship. In the Damaran tongue your partner in such a union is a “turl” for both males and females.

The nobility and royalty on the other hand have a more formal union which involves a legal deed for any property/dowry that transfers from one family to the other (most noble daughters have a dowry, but some sons do also) and deals with what occurs if that union should end. Such unions are called “glorals” and a male member of such a union will be referred to as a “glor”, while a female is a “glora”; as in, “Please be acquainted with my glora, the Lady Nelimbra.”

Attitudes to Sex and Adultery

Impilturian attitudes to sex are open and free, mirroring most of the Realms generally. The fact that the Triad is the prevalent faith in the land does not detract from this for while those faiths are rigid in their attitude to justice, the difference between right and wrong and alleviating the suffering of others, they do not pass judgement on love or sex, save where those attitudes conflict. There is a small, outlier sect of Ilmater/Sharess worshippers known as the “Steel Lily” who are into sadomasochism, bondage and other such sexual practices but they are very much in the minority.

While Impilturian society has its share of prudes and conservative people when it comes to sex, that is a reflection of the prevalence of such individuals in any social spectrum and is no greater or lesser than anywhere else in the Realms.

Virginity is not something that is prized in Impilturian society and has no value in terms of prospective unions, save again where an individual might value such for their own personal predilections or desires. For the nobility and royalty however, the attitude to virginity is occasionally different but only because most noble houses use their children as a commodity, using liaisons and unions to further wealth, status and a family’s ambitions. Some nobles seek or require virgin brides or grooms but this is not universal.

Adultery doesn’t involve social stigma either in Impiltur save and except where it leads to inappropriate fallout such as a criminal act, damage to property or persons, the suffering of children, etc. The general attitude of the lower and middle classes to adultery is “if it’s not hurting anyone, then it’s none of my business”. For the nobility, many noble “glorals” can be voided if adultery can be proven but most nobles are pragmatic about such things and it is commonplace for both sexes to have lovers and mistresses. Discretion is usually the watchword but there are several noble couples who have “open glorals” and do not suffer socially for that fact.

The chapbooks take a more “romantic” view of adultery however and it is often used as a basis to either exit an unhappy union (because you’ve been cheated on yourself or have succumbed to the charms of someone worthier and seek to leave and unhappy or abusive relationship). That latter trope usually involves an “exotic” individual who sweeps someone off their feet or a location where they can escape to and create a new life. For some unknown reason Impilturian chapbooks commonly use hulking Rashemi barbarian males or dark-skinned exotic Turmish women in that context and the places to “escape to” are most commonly the Moonshaes, the Pirate Isles or the trackless Shaar.

Courtship

In lower and middle class society there is no bar or stigma to individuals showing an interest in the opposite or same sex and spending time together. If such interactions occur during leisure time, this is commonplace and passes without comment. Of course, individual families and personalities may have a different attitude to such liaisons but this occurs on a case by case basis.

A more formal courtship situation arises where an individual wishes to spend time with their chosen “other” in the company of that individual’s family or household. In such situations this usually involves meeting them (obviously!) and seeking and gaining the approval of the head(s) of the household. When such approval is given, then opposite families can meet without any expectation or obligation and the two individuals can interact with an understanding that they have chosen to look at establishing a monogamous relationship. In such situations “sleepovers” are acceptable, but not necessarily sexual.

If you are formally courting an individual who is not a noble or a royal, it is common for both males and females to wear a scarlet ribbon or scarf in their hair, or around the head, neck or upper arm as desired. Such a display tells someone that a person is essentially “off limits”: “Don’t even bother Targaun! She smiles in scarlet!”. But it is a not so subtle sign when you meet someone new who you are interested in to remove said ribbon or scarf and instead loop it around your wrist to show that you are “available” or “interested”. This is usually done just before an introduction or meeting. In romantic chapbook literature (and occasionally in real life) this is taken a step further with individuals taking their scarf/ribbon and placing it on another. Such overt actions are not commonplace however.

The nobility and royals have their own version of this in that they use gemstones, particularly rubies (although garnets and other reddish gems will work also) to signify that they are “taken”. A ruby ring, bracelet or necklace/choker are the usual signifiers and many popular romantic chapbooks have titles such as “The Damsel with Two Rubies and a Single Heart” or “A Garnet Lost”, etc.

Courtship is otherwise pretty standard. Inappropriate courtship behaviours (other than “standards” such as disrespecting a prospective partner or their family, verbal abuse and violence) are usually confined to taking advantage of a situation or individual from a financial perspective. While it is okay for a poor family (noble or otherwise) to aspire upwards and seek to form an advantageous union for their son or daughter, it is considered unseemly for a wealthy individual or their family to press their suit by placing financial pressure on another individual or family (i.e. buying up a family or individual’s debts and offering to “waive” it in exchange for a union, etc.). This occasionally occurs with rich middle class merchants seeking to “buy” a noble title for their son or daughter by marrying into an impoverished noble family. It happens, but there is a social stigma that comes with it.


Manners and Etiquette

As noted in my Dragon #346 Impiltur article, an emphasis on “good works” and doing charity activities is always considered fit and proper behaviour. Impilturian good manners do not differ from what one would expect in our own modern society, but there are some small differences in terms of how adults interact as set out here.

When greeting an individual, if known to you, males will clasp forearms with another male while clasping the hand of a female with their own beneath hers. Women will greet another familiar female by clasping both their hands. If someone you are being introduced to is not familiar to you, then at first instance men will half-bow to other males and clasp both of their own hands together and nod toward a female. Women will nod in return to males. Women will clasp a single hand with another female. A first introduction requires you to give your full name (and if it is not given is considered to be an insult in “normal” interactions). Interactions that are not considered normal are visiting a festhall, a covert meeting for business or intrigue, etc. In such situations you can just give a name (first or last) or use a cognomen.

Noble and royal interactions are quite a bit more formal. When a commoner first meets a noble or royal formally then they are required to make a full bow, and then a short bow thereafter. Nobles have a more elaborate bow which involves their right hand and arm sweeping in a clockwise direction as they bow and finishing at the small of their back (so their right hand can be seen and they cannot draw a blade). Women will curtsey and do so with head downcast for royalty. Noble women meeting other noble women who they are familiar with will double kiss (i.e. each cheek).

When eating, table manners allow for someone to use their fingers when eating meat, poultry or fish even though cutlery is available for the middle and upper classes. All people in polite society use a kerchief to wipe their fingers and mouth when dining. Lower born individuals usually just use their clothes! Similarly, lower born commoners usually eat using only their belt knife. Wasting food is a big no-no. An individual should take enough to sate their hunger (taking seconds is not frowned upon if there is enough extra food to go round) but leaving food on your plate to be thrown away is not considered appropriate in polite society.

On that, in terms of social interactions where you have been invited by someone for a meal or some other event, it is customary and considered to be good manners to bring a small gift (fruit, preserves, flowers, a modest keepsake, etc,) for your host. It is considered bad manners to bring alcohol to a social gathering you are not hosting.

In general terms, the “common touch” is a social grace that is aspired to by most polite upper class society. Again, in the context of the aforementioned “good works”. So helping the poor or infirm, nursing the sick, assisting orphans or widows/widowers and doing so with patience, understanding and empathy provides great social “brownie points”.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 01 Nov 2019 16:20:10
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
746 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2019 :  23:18:14  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote

George,

I'm reading through the history sections of Under Illefarn Anew (and once again excellent work to all involved, it cannot be said enough) but I'm having a bit of difficulty with the Phalorm/Delimbyran/Kingdom of Man section.

Basically, I'm not following along with this;

On p.22 (Annotated version, if it matters), under the Delimbiyran, Kingdom of Man entry, it states;
quote:
King Javilarhh II built a new kingdom called Delimbiyran and renamed House Snowsword to be the House of Man

That's fine; I can follow the difference between Javilarhh I (Shining Kingdom of Delimbyran, dominion of Phalorm) and Javilarhh II (Delimbyran, the independent Kingdom of Man). That also follows the information given in Lost Empires of Faerûn, p.44.

But on p.23, under the table for Snowsword/House of Man Dynasty it says
quote:
Haryd I Snowsword; founded Delimbyran, Kingdom of Man
(born before Javilarhh II and the given date of 616DR lines up with the timeline on p.29)


Also, looking farther back, on Page 2 of your "Questions for" thread, you posted a different lineage (I'm assuming an early draft, but added here anyway);
quote:
Javilarhh I, "the Dark" Born: 479DR Reigned: 511DR-528DR
Darnorth I Born: 502DR Reigned: 528DR-559DR
Darnorth II Born: 530DR Reigned: 559DR-594DR
Javilarhh II Born: 563DR Reigned: 594DR-646DR
Haryd I Born: 599DR Reigned: 646DR-665DR
Haryd II, "the Brave" Born: 627DR Reigned: 665DR-688DR
Haryd III Born: 655DR Reigned: 688DR-695DR
Davyd I Born: 677DR Reigned: 695DR-697DR

My assumption is that the Snowsword/House of Man Dynasty table is incorrect, but I'd like to know for sure what I'm missing.
So....?


EDIT:
Out of curiosity (he says innocently), in regards to the Endless Battle, which of House of Man ruler would you say best fits the epithet of "the Marching King (The Trod of Steel and Terrible Swift Sentence)"?


AJA
YAFRP

Edited by - AJA on 08 Nov 2019 00:32:46
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2019 :  10:08:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I recall, Eric changed the original line up (from p.2) in my thread to account for his write-up of the Barony of Starshadow in "Power of Faerûn" (p.97-99).

But you are right that this doesn't tally with LEOF (p.144). So the table is incorrect and should reference Javilarhh II founding the Kingdom of Man. I would therefore have Javilarhh III reign briefly (and be "the Dark" - Javilarhh II for a bit of fun can be "the Fair") to allow Davyd's reign.

I'll chat to Eric about changing "Under Illefarn Anew".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Nov 2019 11:32:08
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2058 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2019 :  10:29:15  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJA

EDIT:
Out of curiosity (he says innocently), in regards to the Endless Battle, which of House of Man ruler would you say best fits the epithet of "the Marching King (The Trod of Steel and Terrible Swift Sentence)"?





I'd probably vote for Haryd II, as his life and reign are consumed by the Endless Battle.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 11 Nov 2019 10:42:08
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2019 :  10:30:43  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by AJA

EDIT:
Out of curiosity (he says innocently), in regards to the Endless Battle, which of House of Man ruler would you say best fits the epithet of "the Marching King (The Trod of Steel and Terrible Swift Sentence)"?





I'd probably vote for Haryd III, as he ruled for 42 years, his life and reign consumed by the Endless Battle.



Hehe, Haryd III might soon be Haryd II.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2058 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2019 :  10:49:26  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by AJA

EDIT:
Out of curiosity (he says innocently), in regards to the Endless Battle, which of House of Man ruler would you say best fits the epithet of "the Marching King (The Trod of Steel and Terrible Swift Sentence)"?





I'd probably vote for Haryd III, as he ruled for 42 years, his life and reign consumed by the Endless Battle.



Hehe, Haryd III might soon be Haryd II.

-- George Krashos




Ha! I'd already fixed it before you posted this. Now my old comment still lives. ;-)

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2019 :  11:32:12  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I recall, Eric changed the original line up (from p.2) in my thread to account for his write-up of the Barony of Starshadow in "Power of Faerûn" (p.97-99). So the table is correct but the reference to Javilarhh II founding the Kingdom of Man is not. It should be and is Haryd I.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
746 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2019 :  22:03:34  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'll chat to Eric about changing "Under Illefarn Anew"

Ahh, Phalorm/Fallen Kingdom....all these years and tears and revised (re-re-revised) versions later and still capable of making poor Krash get out the rubber end of the ol' No. 2.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I'd probably vote for Haryd II, as his life and reign are consumed by the Endless Battle

I appreciate that. It's just a one-off note in another NPC's write-up, but I figured while I had your ear I'd try to name it "right." Goodbye, mighty Ambelath, ye shall march no more.



AJA
YAFRP
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2019 :  02:45:50  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hiya George!

I've adapted 2 Pathfinder Adventure paths to occur in the region just north of the Giantspire Mountains. To me, in looking through various sourcebooks, this region is really between the reaches of the Damara and Narfell. I know the mountains have a huge number of hobgoblins, with one leader in particularly having control of a dracolich. The way I would read it, as there are great resources for mining there, is that this would be a 'edge of the last frontier' kind of region, where panhandlers or companies of miners try to find their riches in the area.

I come to ask if there were, or rather, are ghost towns of settlers who tried to make this region their own, whether from Narfell's far past, or even Impiltur expansionism? Or is the thread of hobgoblins, orcs, and invading giants simply too much for this region that is too far away from any true country city center?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2019 :  10:22:01  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Renin

Hiya George!

I've adapted 2 Pathfinder Adventure paths to occur in the region just north of the Giantspire Mountains. To me, in looking through various sourcebooks, this region is really between the reaches of the Damara and Narfell. I know the mountains have a huge number of hobgoblins, with one leader in particularly having control of a dracolich. The way I would read it, as there are great resources for mining there, is that this would be a 'edge of the last frontier' kind of region, where panhandlers or companies of miners try to find their riches in the area.

I come to ask if there were, or rather, are ghost towns of settlers who tried to make this region their own, whether from Narfell's far past, or even Impiltur expansionism? Or is the thread of hobgoblins, orcs, and invading giants simply too much for this region that is too far away from any true country city center?



Hi Renin

Yes, the Giantspires do have a decent amount of mineral resources available for hardworking. Iron ore, some rare veins of mithral, gold and minor gemstones (amethyst and citrines in the main) can all be mined but the denizens of the mountains make any endeavor greater than a handful of prospectors a risky proposition.

Of old several gnome clans mined the lower southwestern slopes of the Giantspires where they abutted the Rawlinswood, smelting iron in underground tunnels deep under the forest until they were forced out by humanoid incursions.

And you are right that no attempts to mine the Giantspires in any large scale have succeeded over the centuries prior to the Spellplague. After the Spellplague and with the establishment of Highwatch, human prospectors had a haven to fall back on when attacked and the area around the citadel was home to more than a few middling mining concerns.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Qilintha
Seeker

76 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2019 :  01:37:41  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi George, i just read your Ilmara's Scrying stones and your Thay one work and as usual it's amazing ...I have some questions:

- I was thinking of linking each of the Spellglobes to one of the schools of magic, like if casting a spell of the proper school the level cap is raised, the intelligence CD is little lower...what do you think? It could work or you had some different plans?

- Also...I was wondering about the other two items like the "Fiendhorn of Sorrows" and the "Archbellum of Valanthar" is there any source related to those items? Or is there anything you can say about them? I can't even find what an Archbellum is soo..I am pretty lost.

For the Thay one you gave me the idea to do an adventure to find the tombs of the first Zulkirs. Was thinking of Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration) going first. Can you tell me more about him or all the other first zulkirs in general? I'm playing mostly 3.5 edition so no spellplague and such.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2019 :  10:05:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha

Hi George, i just read your Ilmara's Scrying stones and your Thay one work and as usual it's amazing ...


Thanks, glad you enjoyed them.

quote:

I have some questions:

- I was thinking of linking each of the Spellglobes to one of the schools of magic, like if casting a spell of the proper school the level cap is raised, the intelligence CD is little lower...what do you think? It could work or you had some different plans?



Eric Boyd has already had a play with my Spellglobe of Hlithal and come up with another, here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22724&whichpage=4

quote:

- Also...I was wondering about the other two items like the "Fiendhorn of Sorrows" and the "Archbellum of Valanthar" is there any source related to those items? Or is there anything you can say about them? I can't even find what an Archbellum is soo..I am pretty lost.



No, I ... ahem ... made them up. There are a few FR writers and some dabblers (aka me) who like to drop names and items into work we do for other people to play with and flesh out. The intention is that they are undetailed until someone decides to do something meaningful with them. So here's your chance!

A belluth is a type of elven magical wand (see the "Cormanthyr" sourcebook, p.150).

quote:

For the Thay one you gave me the idea to do an adventure to find the tombs of the first Zulkirs. Was thinking of Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration) going first. Can you tell me more about him or all the other first zulkirs in general? I'm playing mostly 3.5 edition so no spellplague and such.



The info on the early zulkirs in that article comes directly from Ed and is the only information on these individuals. So in simple terms you have free rein to do what you like with this idea, confident that your efforts are very unlikely to be contradicted. I could make some stuff up, but I'm sure you'd do just as good a job. Enjoy!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Qilintha
Seeker

76 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2019 :  11:40:35  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
The info on the early zulkirs in that article comes directly from Ed and is the only information on these individuals. So in simple terms you have free rein to do what you like with this idea, confident that your efforts are very unlikely to be contradicted. I could make some stuff up, but I'm sure you'd do just as good a job. Enjoy!


I am flattered by your words but I doubt my skills can even compare to yours XD. I'll try to keep up to your expectations :)
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mikemax
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2019 :  13:58:48  Show Profile Send mikemax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi George.
I'm looking to start my next campaign and I've decided to focus on Eltab as the Big Bad for this one since my players liked Impiltur so much in the last one against Sonellion. I've been doing some research (ie reading all of your posts here) and have a few questions.

1. Eltab is looking for a way to free himself from his current prison and also to bring his layer of the abyss to the prime. I was thinking that he might try to use the Shiftglass of Orthass to do this. I know that he attempted to use it at one point to get free from Thaymount with limited success. What if he tried to use it in conjunction with something like a mithal to link all of the existing demoncysts together? Do you have any details on the Shiftglass like powers and current whereabouts?

2. What can you tell me about the Cult of Eltab? Anything about it's organization and methods would be helpful.

Thanks so much.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2058 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2019 :  18:04:00  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ndulu is cooler than Eltab. Just sayin’.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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mikemax
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2020 :  15:38:51  Show Profile Send mikemax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Ndulu is cooler than Eltab. Just sayin’.




No doubt he is but I figured he might have enough on his plate already. What with the whole "Be careful what you wish for" curse that has befallen him he's probably too busy dealing with the plots of the other Princes (Orcus, Frazz, etc), the plots of his underlings who so want to be him and that nagging feeling that it could all be taken away from him if Eltab ever showed back up in the abyss again, to be stirring the pot in Impiltur for the foreseeable future.

But by all means if you have some ideas or insight into any nefarious doings of the great and terrible Ndulu as they relate to Impiltur that might cause me to choose him instead of Eltab feel free to dole them out as I do enjoy your work as well Eric.
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
201 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  21:28:58  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi George,
I've red (can't remember where) that originally, Ed used Impiltur as the land to welcome the Fiend Folio monsters from 1st edition AD&D. Can you confirm that and if so, have you some details about it ?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2020 :  16:14:29  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Marco Volo

Hi George,
I've red (can't remember where) that originally, Ed used Impiltur as the land to welcome the Fiend Folio monsters from 1st edition AD&D. Can you confirm that and if so, have you some details about it ?



I've never heard that. I know that Ed wasn't much of a fan of the Fiend Folio: there's an opinion piece in Dragon magazine (rebutted by the Brits in the next issue!) where he said as much. Very un-Ed to air his grievances in public! So news to me. GIven that I don't think Impiltur ever played a role in Ed's home campaign, I think it's unlikely.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11669 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2020 :  18:56:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey George,

Speaking of Dun-Tharos, have you ever seen a list of any sort of what fiends are locked away in Dun-Tharos? I know that Lady of Poison introduced some names, but to tell you the truth every single one of them escapes me (and I wonder if one of them ends up being the female fiend in Impiltur in Champions of Ruin).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
201 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2020 :  20:12:14  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks George. I think it was in the Northern Journey Campaign that I've red it. I red Ed's article about the Fiend Folio and it's a very interesting article. I don't know if it is very popular amid gamers.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2020 :  03:14:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey George,

Speaking of Dun-Tharos, have you ever seen a list of any sort of what fiends are locked away in Dun-Tharos? I know that Lady of Poison introduced some names, but to tell you the truth every single one of them escapes me (and I wonder if one of them ends up being the female fiend in Impiltur in Champions of Ruin).



Lady of Poison is a good read, but a little problematic in that the fiends showcased appear to be from the Nine Hells rather than the Abyss. It's trope repeated in some other Realms fiction also, notably Frostfell. I have a few thoughts re how to integrate these sources but it's ancient history so no rush!:)

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
872 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2020 :  03:25:08  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey George,

Speaking of Dun-Tharos, have you ever seen a list of any sort of what fiends are locked away in Dun-Tharos? I know that Lady of Poison introduced some names, but to tell you the truth every single one of them escapes me (and I wonder if one of them ends up being the female fiend in Impiltur in Champions of Ruin).


Do you mean Soneillon the Queen of Whispers?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11669 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2020 :  21:05:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey George,

Speaking of Dun-Tharos, have you ever seen a list of any sort of what fiends are locked away in Dun-Tharos? I know that Lady of Poison introduced some names, but to tell you the truth every single one of them escapes me (and I wonder if one of them ends up being the female fiend in Impiltur in Champions of Ruin).


Do you mean Soneillon the Queen of Whispers?



Yeah, that was her name from CoR. I don't THINK she was in Lady of Poison, but honestly all of their names escape me. But, as George points out too, a lot of the references in Lady of Poison did appear to be more devil than demon. That being said, given that a lot of what's imprisoned in Dun-Tharos may have come from the dark elves when it was Narathmault OR whatever it was before that (because it was already a place of great evil), I wouldn't be surprised to find any number of fiend types there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2020 :  16:36:22  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A question for George, Eric, Steven, or whomever else may know:

I know you have slept since then but can you remember when you were putting together the Grand History of the Realms, how was the work divided up? Did different writers specialize in different time periods or different areas or both or neither? Just curious.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2020 :  17:13:59  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

A question for George, Eric, Steven, or whomever else may know:

I know you have slept since then but can you remember when you were putting together the Grand History of the Realms, how was the work divided up? Did different writers specialize in different time periods or different areas or both or neither? Just curious.



I know exactly how GHotR was put together, because I still have the original work files. Obviously the baseline was Brian's internet timeline. The other "authors", including myself, had been brought in to write the various vignettes that are scattered through the book. At that time, I had my own FR Timeline which I provided to the group and elements of which were incorporated into the whole. After that Eric Boyd and I submitted a number of edits re dates and events, as did Tom Costa. I also had a range of lineages which I sent through as "something different" and quickly wrote up some new ones on the fly (Narfell, Raumathar and Velprin) when asked for more. Finally, the editor Kim Mohan asked for a few more dates on various topics (e.g. he wanted a few more Sossal dates/events which I duly supplied) to pad out some bare areas.

You have to understand that this external involvement to the core project was requested and provided in a very short period. I see the timeline (from my files) as being mid-Feb 07 to 1 May 07. In other words, about 10 weeks. Not much time at all when you have several contributors.

I can also confirm that a lot of work went into the GHotR after our requested input had been provided. The day/month dating for 1372-1375 DR was done in house as were all the years after that and things like the "Black Chonology" sidebar. I didn't find out about the Spellplague until Gen Con 2007 (the first that I attended), and don't recall it being named that at the time when Rich Baker let a few of us in on the planned 100 year jump. All the Spellplague info and dates in GHotR were a surprise to me when I bought my own copy here in Australia in late 2007. I have no idea if Brian James knew about that stuff either - I suspect not.

There was no time (and maybe budget) to commission new art so we were required to trawl through older WotC products and re-use images we found suitable. Some of those requests were flubbed in translation, which is why the art for Ed's 1352 DR vignette and Eric's -349 DR vignette don't make much sense.

They did do the original maps, but we didn't get to see them in our input time - although Brian James likely got to look at them and consult.

So there it is, the heralded GHotR. A brilliant and yet flawed product. I often think how much greater it would have been if we had been given a heads up that it was in production and more time to iron out the kinks, add the dates that didn't go in (there are lots) and fix some of the snafus. Fun times, although I can't believe that was 13 years ago.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 29 Dec 2020 17:14:38
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2020 :  17:58:58  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

A question for George, Eric, Steven, or whomever else may know:

I know you have slept since then but can you remember when you were putting together the Grand History of the Realms, how was the work divided up? Did different writers specialize in different time periods or different areas or both or neither? Just curious.



I know exactly how GHotR was put together, because I still have the original work files. Obviously the baseline was Brian's internet timeline. The other "authors", including myself, had been brought in to write the various vignettes that are scattered through the book. At that time, I had my own FR Timeline which I provided to the group and elements of which were incorporated into the whole. After that Eric Boyd and I submitted a number of edits re dates and events, as did Tom Costa. I also had a range of lineages which I sent through as "something different" and quickly wrote up some new ones on the fly (Narfell, Raumathar and Velprin) when asked for more. Finally, the editor Kim Mohan asked for a few more dates on various topics (e.g. he wanted a few more Sossal dates/events which I duly supplied) to pad out some bare areas.

You have to understand that this external involvement to the core project was requested and provided in a very short period. I see the timeline (from my files) as being mid-Feb 07 to 1 May 07. In other words, about 10 weeks. Not much time at all when you have several contributors.

I can also confirm that a lot of work went into the GHotR after our requested input had been provided. The day/month dating for 1372-1375 DR was done in house as were all the years after that and things like the "Black Chonology" sidebar. I didn't find out about the Spellplague until Gen Con 2007 (the first that I attended), and don't recall it being named that at the time when Rich Baker let a few of us in on the planned 100 year jump. All the Spellplague info and dates in GHotR were a surprise to me when I bought my own copy here in Australia in late 2007. I have no idea if Brian James knew about that stuff either - I suspect not.

There was no time (and maybe budget) to commission new art so we were required to trawl through older WotC products and re-use images we found suitable. Some of those requests were flubbed in translation, which is why the art for Ed's 1352 DR vignette and Eric's -349 DR vignette don't make much sense.

They did do the original maps, but we didn't get to see them in our input time - although Brian James likely got to look at them and consult.

So there it is, the heralded GHotR. A brilliant and yet flawed product. I often think how much greater it would have been if we had been given a heads up that it was in production and more time to iron out the kinks, add the dates that didn't go in (there are lots) and fix some of the snafus. Fun times, although I can't believe that was 13 years ago.

-- George Krashos



Thank you. I am one of those people that likes getting a glimpse "behind the curtain" to see how stuff is/was made. Knowing this makes me appreciate the GHotR even more. Warts and all.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2020 :  20:19:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

All the Spellplague info and dates in GHotR were a surprise to me when I bought my own copy here in Australia in late 2007. I have no idea if Brian James knew about that stuff either - I suspect not.



I seem to recall Brian saying that stuff was a surprise to him, too.

I like to take a little credit for the Grand History, myself -- I was one of the first people to find it and start sharing the link on the WotC forums, and it was on those forums that it was "discovered." Sure, I can't prove my influence, there, and even if I could, it wouldn't count for anything -- but I'll still take that tiny bit of credit.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Dec 2020 20:19:53
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2021 :  17:53:54  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another "behind the scenes" question if you don't mind:

When y'all were writing the supplements, adventures, etc., did you have access to something like an index of all of the Ed's unpublished Realms materials or did you have to dig through thousands of pages to try and locate all the information Ed or previous writers had already created for a specific area, organization, item, or person?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6623 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2021 :  13:32:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Another "behind the scenes" question if you don't mind:

When y'all were writing the supplements, adventures, etc., did you have access to something like an index of all of the Ed's unpublished Realms materials or did you have to dig through thousands of pages to try and locate all the information Ed or previous writers had already created for a specific area, organization, item, or person?



I've long had a chuckle at the idea that some fans hold that TSR/WotC always had some Realms "bible" for designers to consult. There were style guides and general guidelines about FR "dos and don'ts" but nothing like that has ever existed - and still doesn't despite some implied statements to the contrary.

So it always came down to this: who is writing the product? FR products have seen many hits and misses over the years. Some works by X were heavily over-written by Y, especially in 2E and the swinging gulf in quality typified by 1E was an example of just how green most FR authors were in terms of understanding the setting and their ability to create out of whole cloth in a way that seemed "Realmsian". Some few writers were prepared to ask for help and grateful when it was given, a lot were not. Personally, I think you can pick the former from the latter in terms of quality.

So, to your question - and noting that I can only speak from my personal experience. I worked on two types of FR products: the ones by Steven Schend where he actively canvassed the fan base for information/lore/references to include in his work - which produced the gorgeous LOI and EotSS boxed sets, and to a lesser extent SoFS. The other type were the works of Eric Boyd where he and I worked pretty closely to gather the information. I'm a compulsive Realms List maker and lore collector so when, for example, Eric started work on Dragons of Faerûn he asked me for all the dragon lore I could find. My list of dragons - suitably enhanced - formed the backbone of the web enhancement. I did the same thing for DDGttU, CoS:W, SK, POF, et. al. and we did a bunch of work behind the scenes for LEoF and RoF. 3E was where I made my biggest contribution to the published Realms.

So basically, I would trawl through the products and provide a bunch of references for Eric to add to the stuff he already had or was looking to incorporate and then I'd field the incessant questions that still pop up daily from him: I need a wizard active in the North in the 600s DR; are there any artifacts/powerful magic relating to the Tashalar?; what lore do we have on standing militaries in the Realms?, etc. etc.

So we are clear, I was the research guy with the occasional good idea - Eric was the genius writing guy, weaving it all together. Ed always did his own thing and being the creator of the whole shebang never needed to ask us mere mortals for assistance. As it should be.

So yes, I had to dig through thousands of pages. Still do. Daily. It's fun.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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