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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 00:46:09
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Ah, okay. Thats one source I pretty-much never open.
Thanks.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alenis
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 15:40:31
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George, I just wanted to jump in and say thank you for all the incredible lore you’ve provided. I first came across your work regarding Narfell and Raumathar on Candlekeep a few years ago, and was floored! I recently had some free time, and spent the last 4 days reading through all 41 pages of this thread. It was a truly enjoyable read, and something I can’t really find these days since I find 4E & 5E lore to be, well, not very lorish. Thanks for all the entertainment!
- Gerard |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 23:12:22
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Thanks for the kind words Gerard, you've made my day.
It's always a good feeling when you get acknowledgement for well, a couple of decades of Realms pottering.
If you ever have any specific queries or just want to spitball re the Realms, feel free to post here or e-mail me.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 13:03:21
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This was a post I did a couple of years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Lukas Kain
Hello George, I hope life is treating you well. I was wondering what the burial practices of Impiltur are, for both nobility and the common folk.
Hi Lukas. Cremation since the Fiend Wars. You burn it and it can't come back. It's safer that way with all those demons lurking about and Orcus' mastery of the undead.
and
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Triad churches are always available to provide the "Cleansing Fire". When temple facilities aren't available, commoners just build a pyre. This is common in the Uplands. Some of the churches in Impiltur don't provide cremation services (such as the Church of Sune) but there are crematoria in each of the major cities and regional centres.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 15 Mar 2018 13:07:47 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 05:28:40
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George, I have a question about the ethnic origin of the Vaasan people.
The Vaasans are stated in the races of Faerun to be descended from a mix of Netherese and Chondathan. But the Sossrim are stated to come most often to Vaasa, and Damaras living in Vaasa, are stated to have enough Sossrim blood, to make them of lighter skin and hair. The Damarans in Vaasa, would also mix with Vaasans, I think. There are also the the Ride barbarians but they were essentially Netherese.
And as Vaasans are the main population of the Moonsea region, which is quite close to Vaasa, are Vaasans maybe in some capacity descended from the mentioned by you proto-humans who lived north of the great forests of Cormanthyr, and were responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven)? |
Edited by - Baltas on 19 Mar 2018 05:37:40 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 09:43:33
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No, the modern-day Vaasans are, as Races of Faerûn sets out, a mix of Netherese settlers who settled the Moonsea North after the fall of the Survivor States and Damarans who travelled north - all after 1000 DR.
The proto-humans of the East I named the Arthraen. I never named the proto-humans of the Moonsea North who were responsible for building the CItadel of the Raven. I surmise that they were from the same racial stock as the Netherese but were enslaved by dragons and giants in the Dawn Ages. One group also obtained the patronage of a clan of elves, which increased their sophistication and mastery of magic (see my piece on "Ordu's Amazar" here somewhere in my thread). They have no relationship with either the modern-day Vaasans (except in extremely distant racial terms) or Damarans or Sossrim.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 12:48:03
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One thing to bear in mind regarding the humans of Vaasa. Look at the original bloodstone lands. Vaasa is basically described as a sh*thole that turns into deep swamps in the summer and freezes in the winter. Not a lot of humans are supposed to be living up there. Its supposed to be teeming with humanoids though (probably BECAUSE a lot of humans aren't there).
Now I say that with the full knowledge that one of the things I love from 4e was the warlock knights of Vaasa... and I would have it that when Telos "fell" on Vaasa it made the land less prone to being a swamp. So possibly it became more useful to humans in the past century, and therefore maybe there was a migration there??? Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 14:00:29
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-George Krashos
Thanks for clarifying it Krash!
And I suspected the proto-humans of Moonsea North are related to the Netherese, but now I'm sure of it.
-sleyvas
Yeah, it's described as such in The Bloodstone Lands sourcebook. I guess after Telos' fall stabilized the climate, it's possible that the increase in population was caused people from Moonsea (who are also of Vaasan descent), and Damara migrated into the Vaasa region, along with the baby boom from the more inhabitable enviroment. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2018 : 14:00:16
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Mr. Krashos, as you have seen, I recently wrote in the Sages of Realmslore a thread about the existence of two Wulgreths. There, I understood thet you mentioned that bestial nature of the Netherese Wulgreth as the reason why both you and Mr. Schend decided to separate the two references. If this is the point, please read what I wrote later in the thread:
Wulgreth being bestial is the point I don't understand. The references I found in the box say that after high magic fell on the renegade Wulgreth he was immediately transformed into a lich, yes. But then, the next reference is that he destroyed Karse years later (IIRC), in revenge to what Karsus has done to him, or maybe that he was in Ascalhorn destroying the legacy of Netheril bit by bit, becoming more and more evil in the process.
In this way, I understand that one or both things could happen, and yet he would have an instantaneous physical change (into a lich) but the corruption into an evil creature could be gradative. He spends the next days, months or years discovering that Karsus was responsible for his curse, then feeding his displeasure. As his body and mental faculties rot, he became more and more evil, and ended up bringing destruction to Karse, Ascalhorn or both. And maybe he struck a bargain with devils seeking to be delivered of his curse, or as a result of this corruption. Does it make any sense?
However, reading it again I think maybe the point which made the stories hard to combine was the fact that the Ascalhorn Wulgreth was human, and embraced lichdom later, in Karse. If this is the case, would not be possible that the lich was somehow disguised as a living human while in Ascalhorn? In this case, I would keep the plot above, and Jhingleshod would also have revealed this ruse to the Karse inhabitants. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 02 May 2018 14:02:53 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 06:33:38
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Eric Boyd, not Steven Schend, came up with the two Wulgreths scenario when discussing the plot contents of "The Summoning" novel with Troy Denning. I think I've been lazily copying what I recall was his descriptor for Wulgreth of Netheril but I may be misremembering. No reason you can't ignore it!
Eric and I had discussed Wulgreth in our meandering work on the North over many years. We agreed that the reference in FR5 left it open for the Ascalhorn Wulgreth not to be the same as the one from Netheril. We noted how it made little sense for Wulgreth of Netheril to go and live in Ascalhorn for over a 1000 years and then travel to Karse to enact his revenge when Karsus was his main focus from the get go. Given that both sources detailing Wulgreth are couched in terms of uncertainty (the Netheril boxed set uses my favourite phrase: Sages say ...) Eric and I were of the view that Wulgreth of Ascalhorn was a descendant of Wulgreth of Netheril and that prior to the fall of Ascalhorn learned about his ancestor and Karse. That was why he fled there after the fall of Ascalhorn.
You are free to do what you want with Wulgreth, but the canon version is the one in "The Summoning" novel which has two Wulgreths. Like all FR work, you are free to ignore that, criticize it if you like, declare it a bad bit of writing/lore, etc. etc. Don't worry, I expect that Eric won't take offence and I certainly don't.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 12:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric Boyd, not Steven Schend, came up with the two Wulgreths scenario (...)
While I saw that your response in the thread mentioned Mr. Boyd, for some strange reason I mentioned Mr. Schend. I didn't meant to disrepect one (or the other), so I send him here my sincere apologies.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
We noted how it made little sense for Wulgreth of Netheril to go and live in Ascalhorn for over a 1000 years and then travel to Karse to enact his revenge (...) Eric and I were of the view that Wulgreth of Ascalhorn was a descendant of Wulgreth of Netheril (...)
Now that's the reasoning I was looking for, it makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
(...) the canon version is the one in "The Summoning" novel which has two Wulgreths.
My problem with the novel version is that it digress very much from Jacquay's original work, which I love very much. I mean, making Jhingleshod a death knight? Jhingleshod is a unique and deep character... Not that I dislike death knights, they are also very interesting, and I use one of them as a prominent villain in my campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
(...) you are free to ignore that, (...) Don't worry, I expect that Eric won't take offence and I certainly don't.
-- George Krashos
I think this is the most important point here: my preference is a matter of personal taste, and is not meant to offend anyone. Good to know you're not offended, and I also hope Mr. Boyd is not, despite my mistake above.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 17 Jul 2018 11:00:59 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2018 : 05:27:54
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I thought I'd seen a reference to Impilturan laws and practises as regards nobles and knights commanding personal military forces, but now I can't find it.
Are nobles in Impiltur allowed a household guard of a certain size by the crown?
How would it be regarded if a noble family in the northern Impiltur in the 1350s to 1370s DR invested heavily in frontier land, reinforced mining outposts and caravans travelling through hazardous areas, allowing them (or undertakings controlled by family members) to employ literally hundreds of armed watchmen, guards, outriders and men-at-arms? |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 06:36:15
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Hi Icelander
The short answer is yes. The long answer however deals with "how many". A simple knight of Impiltur can have a retinue of 20 armsmen bearing his/her heraldic device. A full-fledged noble house of the realm can have 50 armsmen per registered (with the Crown) individual estate or holding. Legally, no noble house or knight of Impiltur can have "literally hundreds of armed watchmen, guards, outriders and men-at-arms" at a single location. To deal with such a situation, the noble house in question had two options: one is to register a series of mines, outposts, fortresses etc as individual holdings for 50 armsmen each (an expensive exercise as each holding requires an annual fee of 1000gp to remain 'registered' and brings the product/activities of each such estate to the regard of the various Royal Coinmasters (tax gatherers) of the Crown) or second, to use unbadged troops on the quiet. I note that any operation of the scope you describe would swiftly come to the attention of the Crown and the noble house in question would then be required to conform with the requirements of option one above, or to seek to band the armsmen together into an approved mercenary unit, which again requires the express permission of the Crown to operate within the bounds of the kingdom and the ubiquitous fee (in each case, the fee to operate a mercenary unit in the environs of Impiltur is 200gp/month for any company of 1000 men or less. If the company has more than 1000 members, then the fee is 500 gp/month). Such mercenary units are closely watched by the authorities in Impiltur and it is not uncommon for troops from the Warsword to have reason to undertake activities close by to their areas of operation.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 16:25:45
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Thanks, George.
Those fees seem fairly slight, unless I have a very skewed feel for how much a gold piece buys. It's pretty inconsequential to pay 2,400 gp a year for a license to run a mercenary company of up to a thousand when the true costs of supplying, feeding, housing and keeping in arms and horses an army of a thousand mercenaries is probably going to be anywhere from a third of million gold pieces to a million and a half (or more), depending on how much of the thousand men are lightly equipped infantry and how many of them are fully armed and armoured men-at-arms with at least a courser, pack horse and palfrey. In comparison with the real costs of keeping, paying and supplying a thousand armed and mounted men for a year, the license fee is a rounding error.
The licenses for the holds are slightly higher, as they must be paid for every fifty men, but even so, fifty men-at-arms cost a lot more than a 1,000 gp per year to keep. My rule of thumb is that any kind of professional fighting man requires a total cost of ca 1,000 gp per year for every three men. That's without horses or any kind of expensive armour, too. It's just housing, food, ordinary equipment and actually paying them something, so they'll train, patrol and fight for you. You can pay less, for example by hiring starving mercenaries for just a few gold pieces a weeek or month and having them handle their own logistics, but you can't maintain a professional fighting force for less. Those mercenaries will supplement their meager pay with looting and spend more time scrounging than doing any work.
Outriders on light horses or ponies will run you about 700-1,000 gp each a year, if you are going to do it properly. Men-at-arms equipped like stereotypical knights start at 1,500 gp per man a year and trend sharply upwards. An armoured man on a warhorse is a weapon system that requires the labour of a whole village to keep in the field, in addition to the considerable capital outlay. And no one can patrol on his fighting destrier, a proper man-at-arms needs to own three or more horses to stay in the field for long, with five being a more reasonable number for a professional warrior who means to have a career and needs replacement mounts ready periodically.
Armour is extremely expensive and needs constant upkeep, good warhorses cost dozens of times what draft or riding horses cost, men-at-arms are effectively professional athletes that need to eat a diet several times more expensive than average people and their horses require the same (or even more of a cost difference, in fodder). Worst of all, horses die on campaign all the time and even just during peacetime patrolling, you'll lose such a significant fraction of your horseflesh that you could pay the licence fees out of petty cash in comparison. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 19:53:02
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I take your point and you can use whatever numbers suit your campaign. I tend to go "old school" re such things and note that the old 1E DMG has the annual cost of hiring a mercenary archer (longbow) at 48gp. Your outrider example - a light horseman - costs 36 gp a year. And returning to your example using my metrics, 25 heavy footmen and 25 crossbowmen would have an annual cost totalling 3000 gp. In that context, an extra 1000 gp to the Crown makes the effectively 33% "levy" seem about right (if not a little high). Of course you have to provide such retainers with equipment, but the cost of such is not exorbitant and certainly not an ongoing cost, especially if you have your own smiths, etc.
Re the fee for mercenary companies, the Crown is not looking to dissuade the presence of such groups in Impiltur by overcharging. In fact, Impiltur has a reputation as one of the best places to source mercenaries in the Easting Reach lands - it goes hand in hand with trade in the context of escorting trade caravans, dealing with raiders etc. - due in no small part by the cheap rates charged. As such the fee is not exorbitant and intended merely to have the presence of that mercenary company noted in the kingdom, their purpose etc. It also allows the Crown to regulate the number of mercenary units and their locations and co-opt them as Swordpoint units in time of war.
But as always, if your campaign runs on a different money scale, change the numbers. Thanks for the query.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 21:15:28
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Not to worry, I can always query further. 
Thanks for the answer.
I've gone back and forth on the worth of gold pieces in the Realms in my campaigns. When I first started gaming in the Realms using GURPS, which demanded that I decide what 1 gp was worth in GURPS $, I had to make a conscious decision whether to emulate some older Realms sources or newer ones, as the difference was an order of magnitude. In addition, I had to decide whether the amounts ought to 'feel' right in terms of food, ale, wine and daily expenses, or in terms of such items as swords, armour, ships, etc.
At first, I declared that 1 cp = $1 (GURPS), which meant that I was accurately emulating the fact that a loaf of bread or even, prosperous areas, a cheap meal, was 1 cp in the Realms and GURPS defines $1 as a day's worth of bread for a person. This worked for stories where a few gold were perceived as great wealth by a poor person, which might describe medieval Earth, but has problems in the Realms. One of those problems was a 15 gp basic sword, which nevertheless a lot of low-paid guards and soldiers seemed to own.
After playing for a while, I just had to ret-con this scale to 1 sp = $1. After all, Ed casually drops it into sourcebooks that a mid-level noble in Ravens Bluff (Lady Amuinara Daradusk) has a fortune of six million gold pieces and she doesn't even make it into a list of the richest people of Faerun. Similarly, it's abundantly clear in many sources that becoming a noble in Ravens Bluff, Waterdeep or many other places requires a fortune numbering a million gold pieces or more.
There just isn't any way to use the DMG to get any kind of sensible numbers. It makes zero sense that people with comparatively expensive equipment and horses worth 150+ gp would hire out for 36 gp per year. Whoever wrote that obviously has no idea that horses die or become too broken down to work in warfare.
Attrition rates for horses during hard campaigning ranges up to 250% for a campaigning season of six months. An average cavalry company of a hundred men might well require 350 horses over a six month campaigning season and would then end up with only one horse per man after it, requiring another burst of buying horses before they could campaign again.
If these are light warhorses, who is paying the cost of 375 gp per cavalry trooper per year? Even if these are only riding horses, making these outriders more like scouts than cavalry capable of charging home, that would still be more than 200 gp per year. In real life, you can reduce these attrition rates, but that requires better horseflesh than 'basic' riding horses, whether or not they are trained not to bolt in combat, taking proper care of your mounts, having 2-4 spare mounts per trooper, having specialists accompanying your army, etc. All of which is extremely expensive.
These costs are not being borne by the mercenary whom you are paying a measly 36 gp for a whole year, that's pretty certain. In fact, given that very few Realms sources describe food being available for sale at less than 1 cp per meal and almost no lodging is available at less than a silver per night, odds are that your mercenary cannot afford to live better than a beggar. Even if we were kind and allowed him some sort of long-time lodging for only 1 gp per month, he'd still have to choose between eating slightly better than a beggar for an extra 1 cp per meal, having the occasional ale or actually collecting a whole 1 gp per month beyond his unavoidable expenses.
I haven't even mentioned maintaining and replacing his gear, other than his mount, which is probably at least ca 20% of purchase cost per year, for hard use.
Mercenaries usually come with their own arms and mercenary cavalry is supposed to arrive on a horse. So it's impossible to hire mercenaries at the DMG rates unless you find people who own expensive things, but are willing to destroy them in your service in exchange for being allowed to live like beggars.
Unskilled labourers, bringing no gear and having no marketable talents, can get 1 cp per hour for fetching and carrying in the Realms. That's a canonical number, from Ed, in more than one sourcebook. Assume that such a person works ten hours a day, because that's how much he needs to ensure that he eats his full and sleeps in a bed at night. Five days a year, though, he has a day off, because some nice temple feeds him in honour of a feast day. That translates into 36 gp per year for a person living on the edge of starvation, because they have no profession, no skills and no assets.
That number is completely incompatible with paying a professional warrior who owns arms and a horse the same 36 gp per year, even though the mercenary not only has marketable skills, but is incurring costs of over 200 gp in your service over that period. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 16 Aug 2018 21:16:28 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 21:24:19
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I would appear that if you add a zero to my numbers, that seems to work better. Feel free.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 12:19:35
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Hi, George.
As promised, further queries.
Do you have any thoughts on Lothchas the Bandit-Lord (Old Grey Box, PG2 Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms, H4 The Throne of Bloodstone, FR6 The Dreams of the Red Wizards and FR9 The Bloodstone Lands)?
Are the Desertspire Mountains, where his lair is, a part of the gigantic mountain chain of the Earthspurs, like the Earthfasts, Giantspike and Troll Mountains, or are they a part of the Galenas?
Or, despite the reference to Lothchas living to the west of Impiltur in the text of most of the references to him, could they be a part of the Giantspire Mountains or perhaps another name for that mountain chain?
And regardless of his precise location, do you imagine Lothchas survived to the 1370s era and maintained his power, power enough for even the Lords of Imphras II to be unable to catch or kill him despite knowing the approximate (perhaps only very approximate) location of his hideout?
Lothchas was noted for having fifty followers of 9th level or higher, mostly warriors and rogues, but also some of other classes. If there were priests and other divine servitors among his followers, what deities would they worship?
For instance, would Lothchas have lost members of his troupe in 1358 DR, when all the assassins of Bhaal were drawn into Myrkul's ritual to power Bane?
Would priests in his band have been followers of Bane, Bhaal or Myrkul and thus had to find a new divine patron, at least between 1358-1372 DR for any Bane priests?
Do you imagine that Lothchas raids into Impiltur proper or does he confine his predations to people with less protection, perhaps in Damara and those without allegiance to any king?
And how are Lothchas' relations with his less human neighbours, orcs if he's living near the Vast, goblins nearly anywhere and probably hobgoblins, especially if the Desertspire Mountains are another term for the Giantspire Mountains?
Have you ever speculated about the view of people from Impiltur toward Lothchas, both the common people and the nobility? Is he seen as a famous outlaw, a whispered terror tale or perhaps simply as a foreign lord in a harsh frontier, harder than most, but not really different?
Basically, as the greatest authority on Impiltur in the modern age, how do you fit Lothchas into the picture? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 14:46:12
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quote:
George Krashos on his page on paizo.com, 17th of July 2006
As for young Imbrar's stats, I wasn't responsible for them - just copying stuff out of the "Champions of Valor" sourcebook - but I will say that Imbrar is rightly considered the bright hope of the kingdom. Since he was old enough to walk he's been honed and trained into a holy warrior with (hopefully) the skills to rule a realm. He was an early maturing type - you know, the kids with the moustaches at 13 years old - and cut his teeth on fighting humanoid and bandit raiders on the fringes of the kingdom (with appropriate safeguards and healing readily available) from an early age. For a real world archetype, consider him an "Alexander the Great" figure, poised to do great things.
On that note, in the years 1371-1374 DR (age 13-16, right before he will be crowned), who is training the prospective King Imbrar II to arms, teaching him swordcraft, horsemanship, the lance and pollaxe, etc. as he lives under cover as 'Sarshel of Laviguer'?
Is this knight or armsmaster the same individual as is responsible for teaching King Imbrar II strategy, tactics, logistics and the art of the battlemaster?
Until he becomes a full king, does the king hold any noble titles in Impiltur, ceremonial or real?
Is 'Sarshel of Laviguer' covered as someone's squire until King Imbrar II is crowned or does he receive a knighthood (from the Lords of Imphras II, through his status as Triadic Knight, or other) in 1373 DR or before?
And finally, would 'Sarshel of Laviguer', either as minor noble, squire, wandering warrior or knight, attend tourneys in Impiltur during the period between 1371-1374 DR?
Could he ever have attended a tourney in a neighbouring land, either against the will of the Lords of Impras II or travel being grudgingly accepted as being necessary for his future education for kingship?
I'm mainly thinking about travel to the Vast, to cities like Procampur or Tantras (friendly to the churches of the Triad as well as to Impiltur in general) or to Damara (ditto). |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Aug 2018 14:46:57 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 08:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Hi, George.
As promised, further queries.
Do you have any thoughts on Lothchas the Bandit-Lord (Old Grey Box, PG2 Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms, H4 The Throne of Bloodstone, FR6 The Dreams of the Red Wizards and FR9 The Bloodstone Lands)?
I love queries and this is a great one. It's a great one because your timing is brilliant. Two weeks ago my answer would have likely been different save for the fact that last week I spent a few days with Ed Greenwood. He let me have a look at a bunch of Realms stuff including his original responses to requests for lore that eventually made up much of the Ol' Grey Box and the early FR# supplements. What struck me in going through this material was there were more than a few misspellings of people and places when comparing Ed's original submissions and what was ultimately published by TSR. In addition it was interesting to see the original Realms sans the two major bolt-ons: the Moonshaes and the Bloodstone Lands. The latter addition looms large in my response below.
quote:
Originally posted by IcelanderAre the Desertspire Mountains, where his lair is, a part of the gigantic mountain chain of the Earthspurs, like the Earthfasts, Giantspike and Troll Mountains, or are they a part of the Galenas?
Or, despite the reference to Lothchas living to the west of Impiltur in the text of most of the references to him, could they be a part of the Giantspire Mountains or perhaps another name for that mountain chain?
I have a copy of Ed's original hand drawn and lettered map for the Easting Reach lands without the Bloodstone Lands. Where the Bloodstone Lands now sit was simply the "Great Ice Desert". More importantly, the Giantspire Mountains were where the southern Earthspurs are now (i.e. everything south of the Glacier of the White Worm on the current map). The High Pass fed out from the Giantspires, in an easterly direction into the Uplands of Impiltur. Which is why if you read the Impiltur description in FR6 the hobgoblin invasion makes much more sense in terms of geography when viewed in the context of the old map. No one recognised the need to change Ed's prose on Impiltur when they decided to change the location of the Giantspires to the mountains bordering Narfell (not named in Ed's original map).
It is also clear that the Giantspike Mountains name was due to someone at TSR misreading Ed's scribbled Giantspires on his original map. Similarly, I suspect that the Desertspire Mountains are a similar misread or typo that wasn't picked up. So what's our solution? It's a simple one really. The Bloodstone Lands were only fully free of ice in 1038 DR - before that the (receding) Great Ice Desert was present there and obviously a geographic feature known to all. In my Realms therefore I have the Desertspires as an old name for the cluster of mountains east of Lake Icemelt on the FR9 map. The Giantspike Mountains are the local name in the Vast for the cluster of mountains west of Lake Icemelt and south of the Glacier of the White Worm.
So looking at the FR9 map of the area (which is the best one) the location of Lothchas' lair in my Realms is somewhere on the southeastern shores of Lake Icemelt, west of Dunfee.
As an aside, what that map from FR9 does not have is the location of the High Pass. The Fonstad FR Atlas has it running along the western edge of Lake Icemelt. I say that in modern times, the settlement of Tomrav is the gateway to the northern entrance to the High Pass that wends its way south and bends around Lake Icemelt in an easterly direction to bring you into the Uplands of Impiltur. How that gels with the hobgoblin invasion in 1095 DR is that Impiltur held the river defences between Bluefang Water and the Old Water in strength (as alluded to in my Impiltur timeline). The hobgoblins skirted those defences by first marching west, smashing fledgling Damara and then looping south and down through the High Pass to flood through into the Uplands.
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Originally posted by IcelanderAnd regardless of his precise location, do you imagine Lothchas survived to the 1370s era and maintained his power, power enough for even the Lords of Imphras II to be unable to catch or kill him despite knowing the approximate (perhaps only very approximate) location of his hideout?
The Lothchas reference is a 1354-1355 DR reference. Could he have held out for another 15-16 years as the big, bad bandit of northern Impiltur? I really don't think so. Depending on his activities, it is likely that both the authorities of Damara and Impiltur would have made it their business to seek him out and destroy him. Of course, anything is possible.
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Originally posted by IcelanderLothchas was noted for having fifty followers of 9th level or higher, mostly warriors and rogues, but also some of other classes. If there were priests and other divine servitors among his followers, what deities would they worship?
For instance, would Lothchas have lost members of his troupe in 1358 DR, when all the assassins of Bhaal were drawn into Myrkul's ritual to power Bane?
Would priests in his band have been followers of Bane, Bhaal or Myrkul and thus had to find a new divine patron, at least between 1358-1372 DR for any Bane priests?
In terms of deities, my Impiltur has a thing with Talona. She might be a potential deity to use. The Dead Three all remain options of course, and the Time of Troubles would have had the effects you mention. I don't think that there is any "correct" answer to this query. Use whatever suits.
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Originally posted by IcelanderDo you imagine that Lothchas raids into Impiltur proper or does he confine his predations to people with less protection, perhaps in Damara and those without allegiance to any king?
I think that the mining riches of the Earthspurs would be too tempting for Lothchas to pass up, so I see him raiding both Damara and Impiltur in terms of stealing gold and bloodstone from travelling caravans.
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Originally posted by IcelanderAnd how are Lothchas' relations with his less human neighbours, orcs if he's living near the Vast, goblins nearly anywhere and probably hobgoblins, especially if the Desertspire Mountains are another term for the Giantspire Mountains?
If you put him where I've suggested, the humanoid presence in those mountains would not be significant. Raiders, outcasts, etc but no full tribes or organised groups. Given this, I don't think Lothchas would have any ties per se with the humanoids but I do see individual humanoids being co-opted into his band if they show battle prowess.
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Originally posted by IcelanderHave you ever speculated about the view of people from Impiltur toward Lothchas, both the common people and the nobility? Is he seen as a famous outlaw, a whispered terror tale or perhaps simply as a foreign lord in a harsh frontier, harder than most, but not really different?
The folk of Impiltur are mostly straight, law-abiding types - there's not too many mavericks and they wouldn't be adopting a "Robin Hood"-type attitude to Lothchas. Sure, there may be some isolated settlements that secretly give him aid in return for him not raiding them specifically in the isolation of the Uplands, but to the majority he would simply be seen as an outlaw that the authorities have to deal with, if they can track him down. There's lots of "law" in nearby Laviguer and Tower Ithfell.
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Originally posted by IcelanderBasically, as the greatest authority on Impiltur in the modern age, how do you fit Lothchas into the picture?
Heh. The greatest authority? Thanks for the kudos.
If I was running a 1350s DR campaign in the Uplands I would use him. If my campaign was set in the 1370s DR, I would use him very differently. I would have him and his band caught and killed in the 1350s DR and his presence in the campaign would revolve around tales of his buried/cached treasure.
Hope this has been helpful.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 18 Aug 2018 08:00:43 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 08:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
On that note, in the years 1371-1374 DR (age 13-16, right before he will be crowned), who is training the prospective King Imbrar II to arms, teaching him swordcraft, horsemanship, the lance and pollaxe, etc. as he lives under cover as 'Sarshel of Laviguer'?
Is this knight or armsmaster the same individual as is responsible for teaching King Imbrar II strategy, tactics, logistics and the art of the battlemaster?
Until he becomes a full king, does the king hold any noble titles in Impiltur, ceremonial or real?
Is 'Sarshel of Laviguer' covered as someone's squire until King Imbrar II is crowned or does he receive a knighthood (from the Lords of Imphras II, through his status as Triadic Knight, or other) in 1373 DR or before?
And finally, would 'Sarshel of Laviguer', either as minor noble, squire, wandering warrior or knight, attend tourneys in Impiltur during the period between 1371-1374 DR?
Could he ever have attended a tourney in a neighbouring land, either against the will of the Lords of Impras II or travel being grudgingly accepted as being necessary for his future education for kingship?
I'm mainly thinking about travel to the Vast, to cities like Procampur or Tantras (friendly to the churches of the Triad as well as to Impiltur in general) or to Damara (ditto).
Males have preference in the line of Impiltur monarchs. Queens are crowned only when there is no living male descendant in the ruling line - which has occurred only once when Queen Shaneesa of the Elethlim Dynasty ruled from 887 to 891 DR while awaiting a male to be born.
When a king takes the throne in Impiltur, they rule in their own right if they are 16 or over and are crowned with the Crown of Narfell and have the full powers of the monarch. If they are under the age of 16, a ceremony called the Forecrowning is held which marks them for kingship but does not invest them with the power of the throne - that power being the preserve of their regent (in Impiltur's history there have been only three regencies, that of the aforementioned Shaneesa, Kuskur and that of Sambryl. Both of the females were queens in their own right before assuming the role). The underage monarch-to-be does not wear the Crown of Narfell but rather wears the Crown of Tears, created at the request of King Erynd for his son and heir Nord in 787 DR. If you don't get to 16 years of age you are noted as the rightful king for the period of your Forecrowning and placed in the lineage on a retroactive basis.
In terms of formal titles, Imbrar's are as follows: King Imbrar of Holy Impiltur, second of that name, Favoured of the Triad, Sacred Light of the Realm, Defender of the People and Vanquisher of Darkness. His titles don't reflect the fact that he does not have actual power to rule until he is 16. He is addressed as "Your majesty" in common communications, but his full ceremonial term of address is "Your regal light".
Imbrar's first weapons tutor was Garelaun "the Grim" Dorothan, a scarred, bear of a man who had fought with the Warsword of Impiltur for over 20 summers, rising from the ranks to become a Highsword and thereby coming to the attention of Lord Haelimbrar, who made him one of his personal retainers upon his retirement from that organisation. Lord Haelimbrar also had a hand in Imbrar's weapon instruction and currently gives guidance in terms of warcraft, grand strategy etc. His current weapons tutor is his royal bodyguard, Telegar Thistledorn, a slight, wiry figure of swift, catlike menace who wields a longsword and bladebuckler. His formal title is Throneblade, but he rarely uses it.
In his guise as Sarshel of Laviguer, he is formally a squire to Count Ulimbrar Thornspar, a Shrikelord of the Lords of Imphras II, and has certainly visited Damara in this guise and attended tourneys and other such celebrations within Impiltur proper. He hasn't travelled to Procampur - that city has never been a fan of Impiltur - nor has he gone to Tantras. He has visited Aglarond and Cormyr (the former as Sarshel, the latter as Imbrar). His alter-ego exists within the framework of the Knights of Imphras II (see Champions of Valor) which affords him constant protection (Telegar masquerades as a knight when Imbrar is in Sarshel mode and accompanies him) and provides a basis for him to undertake martial pursuits as applicable.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 20 Aug 2018 07:18:21 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 02:36:57
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On King-to-be Imbrar II and his Entourage
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In terms of formal titles, Imbrar's are as follows: King Imbrar of Holy Impiltur, second of that name, Favoured of the Triad, Sacred Light of the Realm, Defender of the People and Vanquisher of Darkness. His titles don't reflect the fact that he does not have actual power to rule until he is 16. He is addressed as "Your majesty" in common communications, but his full ceremonial term of address is "Your regal light".
Great full list of titles! It's got that resounding, dramatic, evocative ring George R. R. Martin achieved so beautifully with his monarchs (e.g. His Grace, King Robert of the House Baratheon, First of His Name, King of of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm) in his A Song of Ice and Fire series.
Garelaun "the Grim" Dorothan
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Imbrar's first weapons tutor was Garelaun "the Grim" Dorothan, a scarred, bear of a man who had fought with the Warsword of Impiltur for over 20 summers, rising from the ranks to become a Highsword and thereby coming to the attention of Lord Haelimbrar, who made him one of his personal retainers upon his retirement from that organisation. Lord Haelimbrar also had a hand in Imbrar's weapon instruction and currently gives guidance in terms of warcraft, grand strategy etc.
I take it from the fact that he rose from the ranks that Garelaun is not of gentle birth. It also seems that he was never knighted for his service to the Lords of Imphras II, Lord Haelimbrar or the Shrikelords and the crown, in training the heir to arms and warding him during his childhood.
Would I be correct in assuming that Garelaun taught Imbrar the pragmatic warlike skills of a soldier and common men-at-arms, not martial sports like jousting and formal dueling, much practiced by knights in peacetime?
In Earth-terms, analogous to the English, German and other European Masters of Defence, like the Marxbrüder, Company of St Luke (Luxbrueder), the Federfechter and Company of Maisters of the Science of Defence, rather than a 'Bem cavalgar' of the jousting tourney knight?
Cavalry tactics, practical horsemanship and the kind of ruthless mounted combat that men-at-arms use in war, where the goal is slaying foes rather than sporting victory, might have been learned from a veteran soldier like Garelaun, but if Imbrar learned jousting as a sport, tourney fighting, dueling with blunted axe, pollax and sword and other such vigorous (but ultimately frivolous) pursuits, I'm assuming he learned them from Lord Haelimbrar or some well-born knight in his retinue.
It is, at any rate, very plausible that an active boy would want to learn jousting hand-in-hand with his horsemanship and that a riding instructor in Imbrar's childhood household taught him the lance as part of the Realms version of running at quintains.
Contrary to popular belief, charging home with couched lance against a formed enemy is rarely called upon in real war and even more rarely successful. Horses aren't usually stupid enough to run at full tilt into anything, whether that's a wall or just a line of men in armour, holding spears, so unless an infantry force panics, horses will shy away from it. Cavalry contributes far more through patrolling, flanking enemy positions and hacking down broken formations.
Lance games, in the real world, were most likely something professional soldiers disdained but the gently born knights who commanded them considered essential for training in the arts of war, because brutal experience of war rarely forms any part of the myths that shape the self-image of the privileged. I suppose it's likely to be similar in the Realms.
At least jousting and tourneys keeps knights and nobles occupied and in reasonable shape, so it's not a total waste. A professional fighting man might also concede that boys who grow up playing at mounted sports at least develop good horsemanship, which is useful in warfare, and at least aristocrats getting knocked about with blunted swords and axes, while nothing like the real thing, is better than aristocrats who've never been hit at all trying to command soldiers in wartime.
Finally, when was Garelaun born and where is he in 1373 DR?
If he spent 20-22 years in the Warswords ('more than 20 summers', if he'd spent 23+, the wording would probably have been 'almost 25 summers' or 'almost 30 summers'), he might have 'retired' from the army at anywhere from 36 to 42 years of age, having joined up between 16-20, unless he had another career before his military one. That makes him 46-57 in 1373 DR, depending on exactly when he started training the young prince to arms, with perhaps his most likely age in 1373 DR being around fifty (there's little call for a full-time armsmaster before the age of four or five, so 1362 to 1363 seem likely years for his training to begin, with him aged around forty then).
So unless Garelaun had another career before joining the Warswords and/or he was a personal retainer of Lord Haelimbrar for many years before becoming the armsmaster to young Imbrar, Garelaun's unlikely to be anywhere near his dotage in 1373 DR.
Did he simply retire from the job of personal armsmaster to the king-to-be, as he had taught the young prince all he could, and the burgeoning talents of young Imbrar require a true master swordsman to take him as far as he can go, rather than simply a savvy veteran soldier with a firm grip of the basics and a fund of military experience?
Is Garelaun perhaps enjoying a well-earned retirement on a nice farm granted by the Lords of Imphras II, having hung his battered sword and notched battle axe above his mantlepiece, married a pretty young thing with a thing for crotchety aging-but-vigorous warriors and now focuses on another kind of swordcraft as he sires a brood of new loyal subjects of Impiltur?
Or did he meet a sad end in the service of his young charge?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
[Imbrar's] current weapons tutor is his royal bodyguard, Telegar Thistledorn, a slight, wiry figure of swift, catlike menace who wields a longsword and bladebuckler. His formal title is Throneblade, but he rarely uses it.
[...]
(Telegar masquerades as a knight when Imbrar is in Sarshel mode and accompanies him)
Why must he masquerade as a knight?
I mean, why haven't the Queen-Regent or the Lords of Imphras II exercised the authority of the Crown to make him a Loyal Knight or, with the Shrikelords of the Knights of Imphras II, made him an Orn of the Most Holy Order of the Sacred Shrike in truth? Personal service to a monarch is pretty much the archtypical way to get knighthoods in both history and legend and Telegar Thistledorn is literally a highly-skilled professional warrior who serves a king personally, as a full-time member of a knightly organisation.
It would seem more natural to grant him a knighthood for his services, especially considering that he is actually fighting as a knight for the Most Holy Order of the Sacred Shrike, than to condone what seems like a pointless deception.
If actual 'holy' status is required to become a Knight of Imphras II (i.e. being a paladin, cleric or having some other way to wield holy power granted by one of the Triad), that might be a reason for him not to be a true knight of the order. Perhaps none of the Triad appeal to him and he refuses to seek the sponsorship of any one the churches of Ilmater, Torm or Tyr. Or perhaps either the churches or the Shrikelords are against him becoming a true knight of the order, for some reason, being content to use him as a bodyguard of the king-to-be, but not considering him worthy to be one of their number in truth.
But that doesn't explain why he isn't made a Loyal Knight. Surely, Telegar wouldn't be trusted around young Imbrar if there was the slightest doubt about his loyalty or honour. I understand that there is a need to keep the identity of the young king a secret, but I can't see how making Telegar a true knight would be less secret or secure than letting him masquerade as a knight at tourneys and other places with plenty of knights, and thus having to brief everyone in a position to know his true status (or in a position to demand papers at tourneys) on the fact that they are not supposed to expose the masquerade.
They don't have to specify for what services he is being knighted or make any mention of the young squire in whose company he travels. They could just say 'services to the realm' or perhaps single out one of the no doubt many courageous acts Telegar has performed in his life, to have come to the notice of the Crown and earned the trust of the Shrikelords, in order for them to trust him with Imbrar's training and with his security.
Is there perhaps a story behind the fact that Telegar can't/won't become a true knight?
Is his position and formal title as 'Throneblade' perhaps a superior rank of knighthood to a Loyal Knight, sort of like Highknights in Cormyr? So when he pretends to be a knight, he's not actually guilty of lèse-majesté (albeit one condoned by the Crown), as when a commoner pretends to knighthood, he's simply claiming a lesser status than he has in truth?
Or, and this is especially interesting to me, is he in this regard perhaps something like Sandor Clegane, the Hound, who was the Sworn Shield (oathed bodyguard) of the royal heir and when his charge became King, was appointed to the Kingsguard, but refused to take vows as a knight?
Sandor Clegane on knighthood:
quote:
A Storm of Swords
“A knight’s a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady’s favors, they’re silk ribbons tied around the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just the same. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I’m the same as you. The only difference is, I don’t lie about what I am. So kill me, but don’t call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other your shit don’t stink. You hear me?“
That is, maybe Telegar Thistledorn isn't really a big believer in chivalry, sanctity and orders of holy paladins, which might be why Queen-Regent Sambryl trusts him better than a more straightforward and outwardly virtuous man to keep her royal heir safe from unknown and treacherous dangers that have prevented other young kings from coming into their inheritance.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In his guise as Sarshel of Laviguer, he is formally a squire to Count Ulimbrar Thornspar, a Shrikelord of the Lords of Imphras II, and has certainly visited Damara in this guise and attended tourneys and other such celebrations within Impiltur proper. He hasn't travelled to Procampur - that city has never been a fan of Impiltur - nor has he gone to Tantras. He has visited Aglarond and Cormyr (the former as Sarshel, the latter as Imbrar). His alter-ego exists within the framework of the Knights of Imphras II (see Champions of Valor) which affords him constant protection and provides a basis for him to undertake martial pursuits as applicable.
Count Ulimbrar Thornspar
What can you tell me about Count Ulimbrar's familial relationship with the other Thornspars?
You've mentioned Erethella Thornspar (N hf W6) as the matriarch of the Thornspars, which presumably makes her the current marchioness.
It's common practice on Earth and, as far as I know, in Realmslore, for noble families to hold several lesser titles than their highest one, which heirs and/or other branches of the family bear.
On the other hand, if I've correctly understood Impilturan inheritance law, Erethella couldn't be the head of the family if there was a direct male heir of her line who had come of age, which pretty much has to mean that Count Ulimbrar is of a cadet branch and not Marchioness Erethella's direct heir. Probably he is some sort of a cousin. In any case, the heir in waiting to the main Thornspar title is also listed as female, I note, a Narasha Thornspar.
And, eh, how is Count Ulimbrar related to the delightful twins Mara and Dara (CG hf twins T5) "the Revel Witches"? These two certainly sound like they would enliven any gathering...
If you have any details in mind on Count Ulimbrar (date of birth, description, personality, etc.), they would be most welcome. And, ehm, the same for the Thornspar twins.*
*A royal young Alexander type living in disguise as a squire in any kind of proximity to a pair of high-spirited noble girls noted for their bewitching ways and love of fun, there's no way that there isn't a potential plot hook or three a-lurking here...
Also, twins. Twins! 
Imbrar and Procampur
I was considering the fact that King-to-be Imbrar II has studied his history and wants to rule an Impiltur with the historical borders of the much greater realm his forefathers held. That, of course, includes the Dragonshoulder, Procampur and Tsurlagol both.
I don't think Imbrar is plotting to slay Rendeth of the Royal Blood, but I have no doubt that Imbrar fervently hopes that his royal 'cousin' fails to sire any male heirs, but happens to have a beautiful, personable daugther. Or at least a passable one, if she'll bring him Procampur and the lands around it as a wedding present.
In the absence of such glorious luck, Imbrar has got to be considering if he could convince Rendeth of the Royal Blood to accept a status as Prince or Duke of Procampur as part of a greater Impiltur, ruling no longer as a independent monarch, but instead holding a high noble title under King Imbrar II.
In order to work toward such a diplomatic coup, Imbrar would have to befriend Rendeth of the Royal Blood, earn his trust and convince him that Procampur would be more secure, more prosperous and more powerful as part of an Impiltur that was vastly larger and richer (and may be planned to incorporate the whole Vast and be firmly allied with Damara (in the future with other marriage contracts), thus controlling all the lands of Damaran peoples directly and indirectly).
Before Imbrar can find any way to somehow add Procampur to his realm, he has to know the people there, the nobles and Rendeth himself as well as possible. So I imagine that travelling there undercover would be a major temptation for him at age 15, in 1373 DR, even if the Lords of Imphras II would consider it too risky.
I could imagine that Imbrar chafes at fighting as a squire in the war against the Cult of the Dragon, hobgoblins and other things in 1373 DR, watching the cavalcade of mistakes and failures that his superiors made. As 15-year-old squires presumably aren't allowed battlefield command, a young Alexander would be driven to distraction knowing he could order everything better than the current commanders, but not being allowed to reveal his true name and position or to give anyone any orders.
Add to that the fact that even after the battles in the Grey Forest are over, it is unlikely that the summer of 1373 DR would see any tourneys in the lands of Impiltur or other pleasant distractions for the young king, chafing at his lack of authority and waiting impatiently for his crowning next year.
And, in my campaign, Rendeth of the Royal Blood is holding a grand tourney at Procampur in Flamerule of 1373 DR, culminating in a glorious feast at Midsummer.
I don't see young King Imbrar II as someone who'll sneak off simply to have adventures and frolic with lissome maidens at Midsummer (though equally LG King Azoun IV did precisely that), but I do see him as convincing himself that his well-meaning uncles, great-uncles and assorted other royal relatives are being too cautious and don't understand his great destiny, how he is perfectly capable of ruling despite his youth and how it is his duty to begin immediately on his plans for the future prosperity, glory and security of Impiltur.
The fact that the duty of getting to know Procampur, its nobles, knights and royal ruler, without them knowing who he is, other than a young squire or knight of Impiltur, is highly tempting to him personally and that he might never have another chance to compete in a grand tourney without being known to all as the King of Impiltur, is of course merely a happy coincidence. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 19 Aug 2018 03:56:31 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 09:24:32
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Garelaun "the Grim" Dorothan
Born in 1301 DR and died in 1370 DR, unexpectedly of heartstop. Born in the village of Torbmarsh, north of Sarshel, he signed up as a caravan guard in his youth and after a few seasons in that role, joined the Brotherhood of the Bound Harpy adventuring band, out of Telflamm in 1326 DR. Their exploits were unremarkable until their discovery of an ancient tomb in the depths of the Rawlinswood in 1331 DR. Their explorations unleashed a nalfeshnee demon who slew half the party and hunted the remainder for several days until they reached the relative safety of Bezentil. Going their separate ways, Garelaun went back to caravan guarding, making several long runs south to the Old Empires. In 1335 DR met and fell in love with Ulthia Stagstar, of the rich merchant family of that name in Laothkund. Their match was not welcomed by her family and they eloped, travelling by sea to Cimbar where Garelaun had connections, and finding employment as a short term body guard for nobles and travellers to the city.
Ulthia tragically died in childbirth in 1338 DR, and with her their unborn son. Devastated, Garelaun left Chessenta, taking ship back to Impiltur and returning to Torbmarsh. There he fell out with his older brothers, who were effectively running the family farm. Believing himself not cut out for the adventuring life and having little true interest in agrarian pursuits, Garelaun joined the Warsword in 1340 DR. He served in the Blacksword (that part of the Warsword based in and around Ilmwatch) and soon was recognised for his cool head, personal discipline and no-nonsense demeanour. His experience soon saw him promoted and after some 20 years of meritorious service he retired from the Warsword in 1361 DR as he had come to the attention of Lord Haelimbrar of the Council of Lords who recruited him to his household to lead his personal estate guards (Lord Haelimbrar has two estates: Cleftfall Keep near to Tower Ithfell and Sungrove Manor, west of Lyrabar).
Garelaun lived at Sungrove Manor and after some time noticed the attentions of the oft-visiting, young Imbrar who would gaze on as he drilled the estate guards and conducted weapons training. With Lord Haelimbrar's approval, young Imbrar was allowed to conduct gymnastics and exercises with the troops, and Garelaun taught him the rudiments of how to hold a weapon, don armor and use a shield. He also saw to the young king's physical activities - encouraging him to run and remain active - and ensuring that he ate healthily. In addition, Imbrar was allowed to go hunting with Garelaun and other trusted retainers and he learned how to skin and butcher game, and hurl weapons and use a bow.
The sudden death of Garelaun was a blow for young Imbrar who had come to love the gruff, taciturn armsman. But coming as it did on the eve of his 12th birthday, Imbar was not to know that his training in earnest was being organised by the Council and the Queen-Regent.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 19 Aug 2018 09:36:22 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 17:21:14
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Hi George,
I've a question regarding Lost Empires of Faerun, I'm trying with you since the authors are not active anymore on these forums and you are listed as one of the developers (and it's Eltab-related).
During completely unrelated research I stumbled by chance on a reference to Wendonai "the Seducer" that said he was banished for 2000 years by a Mulhorandi cleric of Horus-Re. This came completely out of the blue for me since I always thought of Wendonai's role as one relegated only in elven lore. I chased the references and ended up on page 54 of LEoF where is stated that after falling out of favor with Lolth after -2549 he allied with Eltab and served as his emissary to Faerun "for several centuries" and then returned to Faerun for the last time in -623 summoned by a Nar demonbinder and was subsequently banished by a priest of Horus-Re with an epic spell for 2000 years.
This raises several questions and sent me on wild tangents checking timelines and looking for references, what follows is mere speculation but I would like to know any idea you might have on it and maybe you can answer some questions at the end.
So, that paragraph about Wendonai serving as Eltab emissary on Faerun is interesting because it happens way before the direct involvement of Eltab in the affairs of Narfell. I realised only due to this chance finding that it makes complete sense to have Wendonai involved with Narfell as he was the one setting up Narathmault for the Ilythiiri. Now from what I knew of Wendonai, he is the schemer type of behind the throne mastermind that delights in corruption, but he's not one of the big demon lords of the Abyss and, after his fall out of favor with Lolth, he lacked a "big" sponsor. Thus I see him as a savvy salesmen advertising to select few demon lords about the chances offered by the power hungry empire of Narfell and Orcus outbidding all the opposition (still have to decide exactly with what, souls? Servitor demons? Favours? Protection from Lolth?) and thus establishing his dominance. Of course the other demon lords interest was piqued and Wendonai managed to sell under the counter his connections separately to Graz'zt (who sired at least one Dynasty), Fraz'urb-luu (that probably kept his involvement very limited just to keep an eye on the others and scheme against them) and, as revealed by the LEoF excerpt, Eltab.
So Orcus was the first and most prominent, Graz'zt acted to counter Orcus power and was directly involved in the strife (which may have exposed Wendonai's multiple dealings) while Fraz'Urb-luu and Eltab took a more laid back approach of keeping tabs on the opposition. All the while Wendonai kept being the middleman (because he knew the secrets of Narathmault/Dun Tharos and the keys to the bindings of the hosts of demons already present, since he set the whole place up) and reaping in benefits probably from both sides, mortal and fiendish.
This suddendly changed when, instead of doing his own thing in the shadow, he was actually summoned and bound to service by a Nar demonbinder that then further humiliated him by sending him to actually fight the Mulhorandi (something so base and direct, not to mention a waste of his talents, that Wendonai probably found it utterly revolting) and when he was banished for 2000 years by a priest of Horus-Re s**t had definitely hit the fan and whatever projects he had for Faerun suddendly grinded to an halt.
Seeing as we now know that Fraz'urb-luu had a hand in revealing to the Narfelli how to summon and bind Eltab, it would be natural to think that he did the same to Wendonai (for unknown reasons). But looking at the timeline I see that Wendonai was summoned in -623, after the failed attempt of the invasion of Mulhorand by the first member of the Orgolath Dynasty descended from Graz'zt, the ones that had just ousted the first Orcus line from power.
So, instead of having Fraz'Urb-luu just casually revealing to the Narfelli how to bind such a powerful demon as Wendonai (not a demon lord but unique and powerful enough to warrant his own special ritual), I see it more fitting if Fraz'Urb-luu gave the relevant information to Orcus (Gods know in exchange of what) that was fuming at the discovery of Wendonai's double dealings (revealed by the Graz'zt sponsored coup) and was searching for a way to punish him.
At this point we have Wendonai first bound and forced to fight like a dretch and then forced back to the Abyss, away from his favourite playground and hunted by Orcus.
Now is the time when I see Wendonai's ties to Eltab come to full fruition (beside the scheming Fraz'Urb-luu, the other one of his "customers" yet not directly involved), since Graz'zt had his dynasty established now and Wendonai's services were not needed so spending resources to protect him was futile. So in exchange for protection I can see Eltab literally milking Wendonai for all possible useful informations on Toril, this would explain quite a few things: the ease with which he actually succeeded in conquering and holding the Raumathari-held Rashemen when other demon armies were not as efficient on the battlefield (otherwise Narfell would have won the war ages ago), his knowledge of the portal to the Council Hills originally used by Wendonai and the Ilythiiri to set up Narathmault, his escape from the Wychlaran in the far off Sharawood (probably another ancient Ilythiiri fortress/outpost revealed to him by Wendonai) where he tried to make his last stand, his persuasion that Orcus is responsible for his binding on Faerun (since Orcus did the same, revealing to mortals the summoning and binding rituals, to his buddy Wendonai and removing Eltab from the Abyss meant he could go after Wendonai unopposed).
Back to Wendonai, after Eltab's summoning on Toril he was left without sponsors again but probably by that time (about five hundred years later) Orcus rage was lessened (at least to the point where he focused on other more pressing matters like his struggles against the other demon lords). Forced to remain in the Abyss for 2000 years I can see several possible ways to kill time for him: he worked together with Ndulu to keep Eltab's territory from falling to the other demon lords, he worked for Fraz'Urb-luu (last of his old "customers") to expand his territories in the 248th Layer (probably undercover, such as directing most of Eltab/Ndulu's forces against the other demon lords forces and downplaying the conquests of the forces loyal to Fraz'Urb-luu) or he went his own indipendent way in search of other sponsors to drag into ever-expanding webs of intrigue. Whatever his fate, assuming he survives, I can see him keeping tabs on all the mortals (and their offsprings and down through the generations) that wronged him in order to be able to strike at their descendants (mainly descendants of the Narfelli demonbinders, which I see him identifying in some elements of the Red Wizards and maybe an handful of solitary spellcasters scattered in the Eastern Realms, and the Empire of Mulhorand) as soon as he is able to come back to his playground of choice in 1377.
Does the above make sense? Please feel free to confirm, deny and comment in any possible way.
Now some questions: any informations on the priest of Horus-Re that performed the banishing-on-steroids or on his family line, temple, specific order? He seems to be a pretty mighty fellow for not being an incarnation (he was not the Pharaoh and since he was in the church of Horus-Re I doubt he was an incarnation of another member of the pantheon). Also an epic spell that banishes powerful outsiders for 2000 years suggests that Mulhorand at the time had magic and weapons ready to confront summoned beings (which makes sense if they were keeping watch on Narfell and suspected future problems with them) but that they lost such magic by the time the Red Wizards succesfully revolted (and were probably not happy at discovering that the Hadryllis in Sultim was an excellent forgery ... I wonder if the Witches of Rashemen realised they had an hand in the founding of Thay by robbing Mulhorand of the weapon needed to kick Eltab's butt, that would be surely bad press for them if the matter became of public notice), so any idea what might have happened?
Regarding Eltab proper, how do you see his involvement with Narfell before his direct summoning and binding (if there was any, which now I think there was, through Wendonai)? He didn't try too hard to establish his own ruling dynasty but maybe he sponsored or sired some dignitaries of the Empire?
Would Wendonai's schemes find fertile soil in Undrek'Thoz, the segmented city populated by the descendants of the drow of Narathmault? It seems too peaceful of a place, sitting right below Thay but with no recorded history of strife between them and Mulhorand or Thay (even at it's weakest right after the indipendence), it seems they preferred to bother the elves in the Yuirwood instead of striking at the humans above their heads, which is strange, maybe there is something between them shielding the surface? Is the Athora to blame? And do the drow know or sense the presence of such an artifact? |
Edited by - Demzer on 19 Aug 2018 17:26:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2018 : 00:39:26
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Demzer, on the above, one thing to consider about that priest of Horus-Re, we do have indications that there's more than one incarnation of a god active at any given time. Its not like the god-kings are serving as avatars, or like how the gods are portrayed in Stargate the tv series. If anything, it would almost be like the god-kings are serving as Tome of Magic brand binders... letting an intellect ride their consciousness in return for the blessings of that consciousness, but that consciousness is not in control.
Below are some of the the entries from Old Empires which seem to indicate that more than one incarnation can exist at a time. There are a few others as well.
At present, only one of the Zulkirs harbors an ambition to destroy Mulhorand. Lauzoril, Zulkir of the school of Enchantment and Charm, has allied with the Cult of Set to assassinate the incarnations of the god-king. His activities are not sanctioned by the other schools of Red Wizardry, but they would not mind if he succeeded.
The pharaoh is always male and always an incarnation of Horus-Re [except for a brief time after the loss of Thay, when an incarnation of Thoth took the throne (all of the other incarnations of Horus-Re were dead)].
The God-Kings: These are blood relatives of the incarnations, but no divine spirits reside within them. They are mortals with exceptional god-given abilities (high stats and levels), but they do not possess divine power. There are many god-kings in Mulhorand (see #147;Personalities,#148; page 30).
Now, I'm not saying that there are dozens of incarnations of each god. I'd bet though that there are likely two at a given time of the major gods, and lesser gods probably have a small chance of having multiple. In this way, the elder may rule as "THE" current incarnation, while the younger incarnation is in "training" to take over.
I actually also bet that there's some kind of actual ritual that isn't spoken of, but is performed, that awakens the power in a mortal's blood to gain the power of being an incarnation. From a game standpoint, I'd personally make incarnation something of a template that gets stacked on top of a character, and I'd have two versions of incarnation.... one for the lesser incarnation and one for the "CURRENT" incarnation. In fact, if THIS is done, you could conceivably have multiple lesser incarnations of a god running around and it not be game unbalancing, and a new ritual be performed to turn the lesser incarnation into the "active" one. Such a ritual might involve some kind of interaction with the actual manifestation itself to "further awaken the power in the blood".
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2018 : 01:40:43
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Telegar Thistledorn
This individual is indeed a "loyal knight" of the realm but masquerades as a Knight of Imphras II when accompanying Imbrar in his guise as Sarshel of Laviguer. He has no formal affiliation with that order but wears their accoutrements when in this role. And yes, you have to be a paladin to be a Knight of Imphras II to qualify - he's not a paladin, merely a lowly (and deadly) fighter.
Telegar's title of "Throneblade" is that given to the formal bodyguard of the king (which Imbrar is, even though he doesn't rule). That title has changed from dynasty to dynasty in Impiltur. Telegar's ancestors were Heltharn retainers even before the time of Imphras the Great and his great-great-great-grandfather perished with KIng Imbrar in the Giantspires as a member of his Royal Guard.
Whilst the Knights of Imphras II have operated as the quasi-Royal Guard of Impiltur since their inception, the Council of Lords always saw fit to have a body of warriors beholden to them and the family as an alternative to this body. These individuals guard the Heltharn estates (as noted in the post about Garelaun) and are the most trusted of the individuals surrounding the throne. These retainers have filled the position of Throneblade since the time of King Lashilmbrar.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Sep 2018 09:43:03 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2018 : 01:58:00
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Count Ulimbrar Thornspar
Ulimbrar was born in 1340 DR, and is the son of Erethella's younger sister Baranthra and therefore the nephew of the current matriarch of the house. He is a stolid, humourless individual with a steadfast devotion to Torm. His mother Baranthra was (and is) a straight laced, domineering type who is suffered by Erethella only because she has a keen eye for business and assists the family by astutely advising on financial affairs and investments. In fact, she's money and status obsessed - which is partly why Ulimbrar left the family to become a paladin and forsake worldly material possessions. His mother has never forgiven him.
The Thornspars don't follow the practice of other houses in preferring a male line of succession. The eldest child and their children rule the house and in this case, that is Erethella's line. The noble houses are able to sort out their own succession and don't have to follow the rules laid down in respect of the monarchy.
The "Revel Witches" are the granddaughters of Erethella's younger uncle Ebraun Thornspar, a debauched individual who died a few years ago after a life of excess. As such, they are Ulimbrar's second cousins, but he has very little to do with them. In fact they make him damn uncomfortable as they tease him (with good humour) and throw themselves all over him when they do see him, knowing that he hates it. The fact that their usual attire is skimpy to say the least, makes this even more problematic for him. As they say, you can't pick your family.
Imbrar has heard of the "Revel Witches" but has yet to meet them in the ... ahem ... flesh.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Questions for George Krashos
