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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  06:53:59  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd forgotten that bit about Emperel -- it's been quite some time since I read the Old Grey Box.

While I do like what Vangey is doing, I'd still love to see a mostly human version of the Lords Who Sleep get redone.



Well... there *is* precedent for Realms novels being demoted from canon status (I won't be more specific out of respect for the authors, because there's nothing wrong with the books as stories in and of themselves, imo)... and we've been talking about world resets elsewhere... so why not just follow through with a reset to "end of 2E" before the events of "Beyond the High Road"? Anything that follows would be campaign-specific and not canon, but we've (sadly) had fewer and fewer issues with such decisions since the $ellplague. I would personally like to see a Candlekeep-community-developed alternate timeline parallelling the $ellplague (and the 1370s in their entirety, if we agree to go back that far). Anyway, enough threadjacking... Wooly, if you like this idea, excise our digression in its entirety and start a new scroll. Otherwise, consider this threadjack dead.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 05 Nov 2008 06:55:25
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1709 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  15:59:52  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, Brian/Garen/Sage of the Purple Court, do you have anything to say about games of chance or gambling within the Royal Court of Cormyr? What's popular, what's bettable (and what's not), and what do the gossips say?

Steven
just wondering and not wanting to generate lore himself this morning


For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1073 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:04:41  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But how useful would the Lords Who Sleep have been? Far as I can see they were all unaugmented humans. Wouldn't the Devil Dragon for example have slaughtered them en masse without breaking a sweat?

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:20:58  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

So, Brian/Garen/Sage of the Purple Court, do you have anything to say about games of chance or gambling within the Royal Court of Cormyr? What's popular, what's bettable (and what's not), and what do the gossips say?
Oho!

Courtiers and servants at Court gamble on everything, from games of chance and skill--dice, cards, chess, knife-throwing, and other games--to which noble this lass or lord will try to bed, to the color of the Queen's gown this evening, to the manner of address a certain other courtier will receive from royal personages. In back rooms, gossip both precedes and follows such gambling, usually when the gamblers ought to be doing something more closely related to their duties than their entertainment.

One caveat: games of chance, at Court, are played among equals. Nobles don't play with servants or guardsmen (they reserve that for taverns and seedier locales), though they will gamble over predictions with anyone whose acquaintance they have made... and can trust to both pay up and shut up.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  16:24:13  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khorne

But how useful would the Lords Who Sleep have been? Far as I can see they were all unaugmented humans. Wouldn't the Devil Dragon for example have slaughtered them en masse without breaking a sweat?
The Lords that Sleep weren't intended as a counterweight to a great, single threat (like the Devil Dragon), but against a sweeping menace that required skill, bravery and leadership from persons ready to lay down their lives for the kingdom. They are, as much as sleeping knights arrayed in magical arms, nobles of the realm that will wake, ready to lead Cormyreans, in their darkest hour, past evils unimaginable back into the light.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  17:38:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by khorne

But how useful would the Lords Who Sleep have been? Far as I can see they were all unaugmented humans. Wouldn't the Devil Dragon for example have slaughtered them en masse without breaking a sweat?
The Lords that Sleep weren't intended as a counterweight to a great, single threat (like the Devil Dragon), but against a sweeping menace that required skill, bravery and leadership from persons ready to lay down their lives for the kingdom. They are, as much as sleeping knights arrayed in magical arms, nobles of the realm that will wake, ready to lead Cormyreans, in their darkest hour, past evils unimaginable back into the light.



Not only that, but there's that whole prophecy... One or more of the Sleeping Lords could have done something else quite vital in a dark hour. It could be something like leading the right charge, or defending the right person or place, or pulling a Frodo, or anything like that.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2008 :  21:42:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed told me that all of the Lords Who Sleep had 'wings of flying'. Whilst I'm sure that they likely would not have taken down the Devil Dragon, 100 hardened, veteran battlemasters hitting the dragon in mid-air and en masse would likely have caused some pretty significant damage to her.

I think that if I'd written "Beyond the High Road" (BTW, this is my hubris showing) my final scene would have been the first flight of the Devil Dragon, bellowing her challenge to the realm as she wings in over the Stonelands with the last few paragraphs of the book devoted to the Sleeping Sword, what they are/were, and with them vectoring in on the dragon for a huge aerial battle.

My first battle scene of "Death of the Dragon" would have been this fight, as above.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2008 :  23:59:03  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it, George. I've got another one for you; let Brian have his scroll back.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  00:37:59  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry... it's the Needed-badly Document Again. I was playing around with a genealogy program and the Obarskyr succession list from the Grand History, and got to the Thronestrife... and can't proceed any further because we have no direct relationships indicated. Kasplara, Jasl, Arathra, and Barander are all grandnieces and grandnephews of Gorauna (descended, I would assume, from Berost, Gorann, and Ulbaeram), and apparently their parentage is [NDA].

My question is not regarding the parentage of the above, because I know you can't answer such a question anyway. Although... if that has changed recently... I'm all ears.

Anyway, my question (and hopefully the answer to this one isn't under NDA as well) is: are Keldroun's children Gorann and Gorauna twins? It's obvious that they're both named for his slain brother Gordroun, but I thought that they might be twins as well... if there is an NDA in place and I'm right, a "no comment" will be sufficient.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 07 Nov 2008 00:38:32
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  01:25:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

I like it, George. I've got another one for you; let Brian have his scroll back.



Yeah, I know. I'll shut up now.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  02:29:07  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

The Hooded One, Lady Herald of Realmslore, 24 Mar 2008 : 17:48:44

Nevorick,
Ed tells me that the Thronestrife is still largely under NDA, but that a LITTLE more about Cormyr will soon be revealed in "an official manner and place," and that he will carefully check and see what he can and can't post here, in response to you. "Very early May" is his suspected timeframe for knowing that, unfortunately.
However, in my experience, the problem often lies in the broad "what can you tell me about" format of your query. Not with Ed, mind you; like all creatives, he loves having as free a hand as possible in answering you. Rather, the problem is with getting WotC permission/avoiding NDAs. Are there, perhaps, half a dozen or so very tightly focussed questions about the Thronestrife you could pose to Ed, here? "Yes/no" and "confirm/deny" and "am I right about this specific fact?" varieties, perhaps? This will really help Ed in seeing if he can skate around the NDAs, and give you a few specific answers and perhaps some strong hints. (The idea of NDAs is not to ruin the impact of forthcoming products, not to maliciously stonewall gamers wanting to fully enjoy the Realms they already play in.)
love,
THO



From the date of this quoted post, it was pre-GHotR... now, we have no further publications for FR outside of D&DI, which has been stated to emphasize post-Sellplague developments (which I agree that it should), and yet the NDAs still remain. Is this solely for the chance, however infinitesimal it may be, that there will be pre-Sellplague lore released through D&DI? If so, I think that Hasbro needs to give their heads a shake, preferably in converging directions at supersonic velocities. The people who love the pre-Sellplague Realms are not going to subscribe to D&DI just for the possibility of seeing something usable. The way for Wizbro to make money on the lore is to release it on a pay-per-download basis as Paizo does with PDFs of old D&D material.

Back to the Thronestrife: We know that Gorann's wife is Jalanthra (child Edrae) and Ulbaeram's wife is Silbran (child Raerboth; illegitimate children of Ulbaeram are Belmuth and Ortolar, mother uncertain, but possibly Silbran). Edrae died at around age 3, but all three of Ulbaeram's sons lived to be old enough to have children, some (presumably not all) of whom are named.

Berost: born 282, died 301 (first son of Keldroun)
Gorann: born 284, died 303 (second son of Keldroun)
Gorauna: born 284?, died 349? (daughter of Keldroun)
Ulbaeram: born 288, died 308 (third son of Keldroun)

Belmuth: born 304, died 334 (bastard son of Ulbaeram)
Sargrannon: born 324?, died 336 (first? son of Belmuth)
Imbrus I: born 322?, died 339 (second? son of Belmuth)
Imbrus II: born 339, died 341 (son of Imbrus I)
Ortolar: born 305, died 337 (bastard son of Ulbaeram)
Artreth: born 334, died 340 (first son of Ortolar)
Zoumdan: born 336, died 340 (second son of Ortolar)
Raerboth: born 306, died 326 (only heir of Ulbaeram)
Baerildo: born 325, died 328 (only? son of Raerboth)

Mad Meurthe: born 318, died 344 (granddaughter of Gorauna)
(parents unknown)
Kasplara: born 329, died 345 (grandniece of Gorauna)
Jasl: born 327, died 347 (grandnephew of Gorauna)
Arathra: born 322, died 348 (grandniece of Gorauna)
Barander: born 329, died 372 (grandnephew of Gorauna)

The previous four are descended from Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram in some combination, probably from unnamed daughters; if they were descended from Gorauna's consort's sibling(s), they wouldn't be eligible heirs to the throne. Anyway, that's all I have; I'd love to have some more concrete information so I can continue the genealogy, but it looks as though all this lore about the past is going to stay bottled up until the future (i.e., post-Sellplague) is described.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  03:49:11  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Ed tells me that the Thronestrife is still largely under NDA <snip>
From the date of this quoted post, it was pre-GHotR... now, we have no further publications for FR outside of D&DI, which has been stated to emphasize post-Sellplague developments (which I agree that it should), and yet the NDAs still remain. Is this solely for the chance, however infinitesimal it may be, that there will be pre-Sellplague lore released through D&DI?[/quote]The quote was from this past March, while Grand History came out last September. No products potentially related to the above-listed NDA have come out, and all NDAs remain until expressly dropped by the company (WotC), whether such a product is published, cancelled, or folded into another product. It's possible that they're keeping the NDA in place for a reason, or merely because they don't wish to allow anyone but Wizards to release information.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the question is. If you're asking about the specific relationships among the members of the royal family listed in your post, your answer is still, unfortunately, "NDA."

I will say this: all persons to sit on the Dragon Throne (yes, even Silbran) can trace their descent to Faerlthann First-King. Anything more than that will have to wait until (if ever) the Royal Lineage comes to light.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  04:20:05  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What are the odds that the Vast cities, being cultularly and geographically related to these nations, could apply to and receive a similar membership in the Freesails? In other words, that Raven's Bluff (at least, and perhaps Procampur and Tsurlagol later) could maintain its own contingent of Freesails in lieu of a proper Navy and that this contingent would be allied with the other Freesails.
That's not really how the Freesails work.

Freesailors are a sort of privateer, but with less authority (and more freedom) from its sponsoring country. Each Freesailor captain swears allegiance to a specific power, but they are not an organized force, and owe no assistance to their kingdom in formal combats. They are, instead, empowered to defend the nation against attacks and to capture pirates or lawless and nationless ships.

The cities of the Vast and other areas are not eligible for membership in the Freesails because this group is not an alliance of powers but brotherhood of captains and sailors, committed to keeping waterways free of piracy and the attacks of villainous kingdoms.

quote:
How does Cormyr distinguish a 'war' ship from a 'peaceful' one? For example, a galleon or caravel can certainly be used for both trading or war and it's not like counting cannon is going to distinguish them.

Would a galleon out of the Vast, for example, be in any danger of being turned away or attacked because it was armed with several ballistae and carried an armed crew?
Attacked, no--not unless it began trimming sail or turning in such away that it appeared hostile (showing ballistae, etc.), or unless its crew was actively armed when approaching other ships (most sailors don't spend most of their time wearing blades unless they are spoiling for a fight).

Turned away? Absolutely. Ships entering the Lake of Dragons are expected to be there peacefully, and unless they stow and unload their ship-to-ship weapons, store ready warblades (not belt-knives or similar, of course), and obey the commands of Blue Dragon ships in the area, they can expect to be turned aside.

quote:
By the way, approximately how long is a Cormyrean 'war caravel'? How long are their galleons? How long is Filfaeril, the new fast galleon? Approximately how much do they displace? The historical vessels which bore these names have during their long history varied in size by more than an order of magnitude, which is a bit much for my tastes.
Specifics on ship size, displacement, batteries of weapons, and such are beyond my areas of expertise. I could make up numbers, but they would likely be disingenuous.
quote:
I'm wondering whether a trading convoy of two 'frigates' (130' long vessels designed to be faster, slimmer and handier than galleons) and a three-masted 90' long raker would be considered a prudent measure when sailing near the Pirate Isles or an intolerable threat to Cormyr's sovereignity of the sea if it desired to enter the Dragonmere.
Any armed and arrayed ships, sailing into the Dragonmere, are going to be confronted and possibly opposed. Near the Pirate Isles is fine, but no three such large ships are going to be allowed to stay together so close to Cormyrean shores.

quote:
Could a Freesailor vessel freely board and seize any vessel sailing from Westgate that doesn't show the flag of a friendly power? Is such a prize handled in the same manner as pirate ships taken under arms?

I ask because if so, my players will undoubtedly go back to their privateer roots and basically make Westgate an untenable harbour for anyone but allies of Cormyr.
No, they can't. Freesailors reserve their efforts to eliminating (and, on occasion, practicing) piracy, and avoid assaulting ships in and out of Westgate particularly. The ships of that city, and the coin it commands, would at the very least create a nuisance for the formal Navy of Cormyr if true conflict broke out, and they do not wish to be blamed.

quote:
Also, are ships required to show national flags? For example, do Sembian merchant vessels sail under the mark of their coster, their country or both? Is anyone not showing any flag presumed to be a pirate or at least a smuggler (not unreasonable, given that there appear to be more pirate vessels on the Inner Sea than naval vessels)?
There is no Law of the Sea, as such, in the Realms. Ships are expected to fly a national flag, and failure to do so means that a ship's captain cannot claim the protection of any nation if attacked (though they can still appeal to they nation of the attacker for justice).

quote:
More on Freesailors. How much freedom do they have?

Can they sail their ships whereever on the Inner Sea they please? Can they take passengers at the discretion of their captain, even from nations that Cormyr considers hostile or at least dubious (Thay, Zhentil Keep)? Can they function as merchant ships, earning money for a non-Cormyrean trading company? How is it viewed if their officers decide to take a hand in hostilities that do not involve Cormyr, such as that between Mulhorand and Unther? Are they seen as private citizens acting on their own initiative or is it viewed as tantamount to a declaration of war?
Freesailors represent their kingdoms, and as privateers, their actions can precipitate hostilities. They are bound by the laws and dictates of their nation, but are not military officers or envoys, and as such do not speak for the kingdom.

In exchange for the freedom of the seas--to capture pirates and enemies of the Crown--Freesailors give a cut (50%) of their booty to the kingdom on landing within a home port. A Captain can choose to gift a captured ship to the Crown toward this amount, and this usually reduces the amount owed to a great degree (as well as cutting down on command and bookkeeping problems).

quote:
How does one cease to a be a Freesailor? Can the owner of a ship suddenly decide that he'd prefer to be an independent mercenary ship? Can he decide that he still wants to be a Freesailor, but a Sembian or Impilturan one (or a Raven's Bluff one, if the allegiance should ever come to be)?
This requires a very explicit declaration to the appropriate authority, and is essentially a surrender of any right of citizenship, authority, title, lands or rank within the former kingdom. In other words, the decision is not taken lightly.

quote:
*My PCs were given the task of acting as ambassadors for an airing of this idea as their trade takes them to Cormyr, one of their ships already belongs to the Cormyrean Freesails and the membership of their group is mixed Cormyrean (noble and common), Sembian and Raven's Bluff, including at least one knight of the city and an important merchant.
Freesailor ships belong to their captains. A Freesailor can't captain someone else's ship, though a group of collective owners can choose to band together under a single captain. In the Inner Sea, all ships must have a captain, and this person is responsible for all the acts of a ship; of all the informal naval laws, this one is the most "enforced," with a given Captain always held liable for whatever occurs on his ship... save mutiny.

More information about naval issues in the Inner Sea, the Freesails, and similar issues can be found in Pirates of the Fallen Stars and the Sea of Fallen Stars boxed set.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  05:58:24  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the question is. If you're asking about the specific relationships among the members of the royal family listed in your post, your answer is still, unfortunately, "NDA."


That much I suspected. My primary question was phrased more as a speculation, to wit: "The previous four [Kasplara, Jasl, Arathra, and Barander] are descended from Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram in some combination, probably from unnamed daughters; if they were descended from Gorauna's consort's sibling(s), they wouldn't be eligible heirs to the throne." Can you at least confirm or deny that speculation? Never mind... your following paragraph confirms it. Edit: Unless... there's something very convoluted and incestuous going on...

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

I will say this: all persons to sit on the Dragon Throne (yes, even Silbran) can trace their descent to Faerlthann First-King. Anything more than that will have to wait until (if ever) the Royal Lineage comes to light.



I wondered about that when I saw her entry in the succession... but if Silbran was an Obarskyr before marriage... I suppose she could be a descendant of Besmra and Kurrurdan, or really from anyone else through an undocumented line (read: somebody's daughter). All we have in the GHotR is the line of succession, which is only father to son about half the time, at a very rough estimate.

Okay... who do I need to write letters to about releasing the Royal Lineage? Polls on CK and requests on the Wizards boards are not sufficient, I know. I would also love to see a novel by Ed on the Thronestrife... preferably before the release of the Lineage, but I definitely want to see the latter happen, so if my "double hockey sticks" comment in my sig is accurate with respect to a novel set in early Cormyr, then by all means I would rather at least have the lore. I'll add the contact info to my poll scroll if you are able to provide it.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 07 Nov 2008 08:15:49
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  09:48:08  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George, thank you for sharing your Those Who Sleep text. (I'd still like to see the FRQ1 maps, though!)

Those brief lines in Beyond the High Road were such a thorough example of How Not to Handle a Shared World:

1. You don't delete parts of the setting, especially old ones, especially when other people created them, without (a) an excellent dramatic reason and (b) replacing it with things at least as good.

2. You don't show off how badass your antagonists/protagonists are by one-upmanship, casually and dramatically having them wipe out other people's characters.

3. You don't tell simplified, more boring stories in a complex world. You don't crudely simplify the world by removing bits that don't suit you.

4. If you're going to squander threads intended for DMs for the sake of short-term novel sales, at least get some.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  12:53:57  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

That's not really how the Freesails work.

Freesailors are a sort of privateer, but with less authority (and more freedom) from its sponsoring country. Each Freesailor captain swears allegiance to a specific power, but they are not an organized force, and owe no assistance to their kingdom in formal combats. They are, instead, empowered to defend the nation against attacks and to capture pirates or lawless and nationless ships.

The cities of the Vast and other areas are not eligible for membership in the Freesails because this group is not an alliance of powers but brotherhood of captains and sailors, committed to keeping waterways free of piracy and the attacks of villainous kingdoms.

I understand that the Allegiance of Freesailors is not an allegiance of powers per se. It is, nevertheless, a non-governmental agency that allows people from certain nations to cooperate in the pursuit of given goals. In that sense, it can be compared to international football organisations like FIFA (for the structure, not the purpose) or the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movements.

We can assume that the cities of the Vast regard themselves as empowered to grant letters of marque and reprisal. We can also assume that the relationship between those cities and Impiltur is at least as friendly as that between Sembia and Cormyr, if not more so.

I was talking about the possibility that as a deliberate policy choice, the governments of Cormyr and perhaps Impiltur and Sembia, could 'suggest' to the head of the Freesailors (Ayesunder Truesilver) that the rules of the organisation be amended to such an extent as to recognise privateer captains and crew from other kingdoms than Cormyr, Impiltur and Sembia, if they were to wish to join the organisation. The benefit of this would be to allow the 'Big Three' some measure of oversight over whom these places are granting letters of marque, as well as improving the cooperation that Freesailors are likely to get when operating in the naval waters of these powers (which is likely to be often, as the Vast is well situated for strikes against the Pirate Isles).

From the point of view of Cormyr, it would appear to be desirable that more vessels belong to the Freesails, even if they do not swear allegiance to the Dragon Throne. The Allegiance of Freesailors provides a framework for international cooperation against pirates, which should improve success against them, and an Inner Sea where most armed ships belong to the same brotherhood should at least reduce the chances that those powers presently neutral would fight one another. If Sembian vessels, surely more of a threat to Cormyrean interests than most others in the Inner Sea (barring Thayvian ones), are accepted, it's not a stretch to imagine making membership open to more nations.

Raven's Bluff realises that the Freesails would not and could not defend the city. The goal would be to use its own privateer vessels to do that, but to have those privateers belong to an organisation that enjoys a formiddable reputation and at least the possibility of friendly vessels to give aid from time to time.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Specifics on ship size, displacement, batteries of weapons, and such are beyond my areas of expertise. I could make up numbers, but they would likely be disingenuous.

Very good.

I'm just trying to understand what is meant by 'galleon' and 'caravel' in this context. In the real world, both Regazona and the Mayflower were described as 'galleons', even though one was a huge warhips and the other a rather small merchant vessel.

The words have been used for so many things in history that they convey little or no information to me in a fantasy setting.

Could you at least name historical vessels that you think of as 'somewhat similar' to a Cormyrean galleon and a Cormyrean caravel? On the understanding that this represents only what you think of when you use the term and not an official ruling of any sort?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Any armed and arrayed ships, sailing into the Dragonmere, are going to be confronted and possibly opposed. Near the Pirate Isles is fine, but no three such large ships are going to be allowed to stay together so close to Cormyrean shores.

Very good.

If the ships sail as a convoy through the Neck, but respond peacefully to a challenge and claim only to want to enter the port of Suzail to trade, would they be escorted into port or would they be required to seperate from each other? Would the fact that they needed to be challenged by the Navy carry any stigma or legal reprisal later on?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

No, they can't. Freesailors reserve their efforts to eliminating (and, on occasion, practicing) piracy, and avoid assaulting ships in and out of Westgate particularly. The ships of that city, and the coin it commands, would at the very least create a nuisance for the formal Navy of Cormyr if true conflict broke out, and they do not wish to be blamed.

I see. This seems to contradict your previous statement that:
"Vessels flying flags of "rogue" locales (like Westgate or Zhentil Keep) may be sunk by Freesailors depending on their perception of relative power, but are entirely unwelcome within the Lake of Dragons--to the point of being attacked on sight."

Or does it just mean that ships entering and leaving Westgate take care not to fly the flag of the city?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

There is no Law of the Sea, as such, in the Realms. Ships are expected to fly a national flag, and failure to do so means that a ship's captain cannot claim the protection of any nation if attacked (though they can still appeal to they nation of the attacker for justice).

I see. Can a vessel with owners from multiple nations choose any of them as the 'port of registry'?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Freesailors represent their kingdoms, and as privateers, their actions can precipitate hostilities. They are bound by the laws and dictates of their nation, but are not military officers or envoys, and as such do not speak for the kingdom.

In our world, at least, a holder of a letter of marque and reprisal was not bound to serve full time as a privateer for the granter of that letter. He could even hold a letter of marque from more than one power and/or serve in the armed forces of another power while holding a letter of marque.

None of this would precipitate hostilities, unless he specifically attacked or captured a ship in his capacity as a privateer for a specific nation.

Is this significantly different in the Realms?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

This requires a very explicit declaration to the appropriate authority, and is essentially a surrender of any right of citizenship, authority, title, lands or rank within the former kingdom. In other words, the decision is not taken lightly.

It is not possible, for example, for a person to resign his position as captain of a Freesail vessel, turn in his letter of marquee and retain his Cormyrean citizenship? And the new captain of the vessel, being of a nationality other than Cormyrean, could simply decide to seek a letter of marquee from another power (Sembia or Impiltur) and still remain a part of the Allegiance of Freesailors?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Freesailor ships belong to their captains. A Freesailor can't captain someone else's ship, though a group of collective owners can choose to band together under a single captain. In the Inner Sea, all ships must have a captain, and this person is responsible for all the acts of a ship; of all the informal naval laws, this one is the most "enforced," with a given Captain always held liable for whatever occurs on his ship... save mutiny.

The PCs and a group of NPCs own the ship and have chosen a captain to represent them. The captain is Cormyrean and of noble blood (though stripped of titles in the aftermath of the Abraxus Affair, as he is a Cormaeril, albeit one not involved at all in the conspiracy).

Others of the owners, while initially content to have the ship serve as a privateer for Cormyr, would now like to register it as a privateer for their adopted home, Raven's Bluff. They would, ideally, wish to do so in with the acquisience of Cormyrean authorities and with the understanding that they remained friendly. After all, they'd still hunt pirates, which is to the benefit of Cormyr, even if they turned their 50% over to a different power.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

More information about naval issues in the Inner Sea, the Freesails, and similar issues can be found in Pirates of the Fallen Stars and the Sea of Fallen Stars boxed set.


I own the Pirates of the Fallen Stars and a book called the Sea of Fallen Stars (TSR 11393); but I'm not familiar with a boxed set. Where can I get that?

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Garen Thal
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  14:39:01  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I was talking about the possibility that as a deliberate policy choice, the governments of Cormyr and perhaps Impiltur and Sembia, could 'suggest' to the head of the Freesailors (Ayesunder Truesilver) that the rules of the organisation be amended to such an extent as to recognise privateer captains and crew from other kingdoms than Cormyr, Impiltur and Sembia, if they were to wish to join the organisation. The benefit of this would be to allow the 'Big Three' some measure of oversight over whom these places are granting letters of marque, as well as improving the cooperation that Freesailors are likely to get when operating in the naval waters of these powers (which is likely to be often, as the Vast is well situated for strikes against the Pirate Isles).
It's certainly a possibility, if it works for your campaign.

Technically speaking, the head of the Freesailors is not Ayesunder Truesilver, whose title is Warden of the Port at Maresember. The admiral of the Imperial Navy is officially the king of Cormyr, though he can assign those duties at his leisure.

quote:
Could you at least name historical vessels that you think of as 'somewhat similar' to a Cormyrean galleon and a Cormyrean caravel? On the understanding that this represents only what you think of when you use the term and not an official ruling of any sort?
References to "galleons" should evoke notions the 500 ton ships of the day, though floating castles are just that--massive constructions. Caravels are the late medieval ships of the same name.

quote:
If the ships sail as a convoy through the Neck, but respond peacefully to a challenge and claim only to want to enter the port of Suzail to trade, would they be escorted into port or would they be required to separate from each other? Would the fact that they needed to be challenged by the Navy carry any stigma or legal reprisal later on?
There's no stigma in needing to be stopped; the stigma is in sailing the Inner Sea as a flotilla. They would, in fact, be required to separate, with only one ship permitted to dock at a time, and the other two escorted and boarded ("inspected") while the others unloaded. This is to prevent both armed assault from sea and swarming attacks by massed, clearly-allied sailors.

quote:
I see. This seems to contradict your previous statement that:
"Vessels flying flags of "rogue" locales (like Westgate or Zhentil Keep) may be sunk by Freesailors depending on their perception of relative power, but are entirely unwelcome within the Lake of Dragons--to the point of being attacked on sight."

Or does it just mean that ships entering and leaving Westgate take care not to fly the flag of the city?
No one attacks ships of Westgate entering or leaving harbor. It's dishonorable and borders on an act of war.

On the open sea, Freesailors might assault Westhavian ships, if they have enough men or arms to eliminate the opposing crew, or are otherwise strong enough that they need not fear reprisal. Westgate, however, does notice these things (assuming survivors are returned or escape), and Freesails can't perform such acts with absolute impunity.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Freesailors represent their kingdoms, and as privateers, their actions can precipitate hostilities. They are bound by the laws and dictates of their nation, but are not military officers or envoys, and as such do not speak for the kingdom.

In our world, at least, a holder of a letter of marque and reprisal was not bound to serve full time as a privateer for the granter of that letter. He could even hold a letter of marque from more than one power and/or serve in the armed forces of another power while holding a letter of marque.

None of this would precipitate hostilities, unless he specifically attacked or captured a ship in his capacity as a privateer for a specific nation.

Is this significantly different in the Realms?
Freesailors hold a position somewhere between a privateer and a potentially-conscripted sailor. Freesails are expected to serve their country in times of war, and membership in the Freesailors is an explicit declaration of allegiance to a single power. They are free to stand with whatever allies they choose, but they cannot be Freesailors of multiple nations.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

This requires a very explicit declaration to the appropriate authority, and is essentially a surrender of any right of citizenship, authority, title, lands or rank within the former kingdom. In other words, the decision is not taken lightly.

It is not possible, for example, for a person to resign his position as captain of a Freesail vessel, turn in his letter of marquee and retain his Cormyrean citizenship? And the new captain of the vessel, being of a nationality other than Cormyrean, could simply decide to seek a letter of marquee from another power (Sembia or Impiltur) and still remain a part of the Allegiance of Freesailors?

quote:
The PCs and a group of NPCs own the ship and have chosen a captain to represent them. The captain is Cormyrean and of noble blood (though stripped of titles in the aftermath of the Abraxus Affair, as he is a Cormaeril, albeit one not involved at all in the conspiracy).

Others of the owners, while initially content to have the ship serve as a privateer for Cormyr, would now like to register it as a privateer for their adopted home, Raven's Bluff. They would, ideally, wish to do so in with the acquisience of Cormyrean authorities and with the understanding that they remained friendly. After all, they'd still hunt pirates, which is to the benefit of Cormyr, even if they turned their 50% over to a different power.
This can potentially lead to very strained relations with the Crown of Cormyr, but this is a case where you have to do what's best for your campaign.

quote:
I own the Pirates of the Fallen Stars and a book called the Sea of Fallen Stars (TSR 11393); but I'm not familiar with a boxed set. Where can I get that?
I am likely be mistaken about the boxed/book nature of SoFS. The product I'm speaking of is penned by the able and august Steven Schend, and is quite the source of lore.

Edited by - Garen Thal on 07 Nov 2008 14:48:21
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I own the Pirates of the Fallen Stars and a book called the Sea of Fallen Stars (TSR 11393); but I'm not familiar with a boxed set. Where can I get that?
I am likely be mistaken about the boxed/book nature of SoFS. The product I'm speaking of is penned by the able and august Steven Schend, and is quite the source of lore.



As someone who has bought the print copy twice and the pdf once, I can unequivocally state that Sea of Fallen Stars is a sourcebook.

I believe WotC/TSR had stopped doing boxed sets, by that point. I miss the boxed sets.

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The Sage
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Brian may be thinking of the associated The Wyrmskull Throne adventure module. I know a few gaming stores both here and in the UK bundled together both SoFS and TWT into one handy plastic wrapped package for a time after their respective releases. Not necessarily a "boxed set" in the same manner as Ruins of Myth Drannor, but...

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Jakk
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Okay... one last stab at making some sense of the Thronestrife lineage, then I'll shut up about it. For the following kings and queens:
Kasplara: born 329, died 345 (grandniece of Gorauna)
Jasl: born 327, died 347 (grandnephew of Gorauna)
Arathra: born 322, died 348 (grandniece of Gorauna)
Barander: born 329, died 372 (grandnephew of Gorauna)
Are they grandsons and granddaughters of (a) Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram, or of (b) unnamed sisters of the three, or (c) a combination of the two?

One letter, that's all I ask. I suspect (b), particularly Berost and/or sisters, given that we have known offspring of Gorann and Ulbaeram.

Okay. I'll shut up about this now. My original question from a couple of days ago was:
quote:
originally posted by Jakk:
Anyway, my question (and hopefully the answer to this one isn't under NDA as well) is: are Keldroun's children Gorann and Gorauna twins? It's obvious that they're both named for his slain brother Gordroun, but I thought that they might be twins as well...



Thanks again! No more lineage questions, I promise.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Garen Thal
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USA
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  18:49:20  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Are they grandsons and granddaughters of (a) Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram, or of (b) unnamed sisters of the three, or (c) a combination of the two?

One letter, that's all I ask. I suspect (b), particularly Berost and/or sisters, given that we have known offspring of Gorann and Ulbaeram.
Can't answer that. One letter is insufficient. Three, however, covers it: NDA.

A teasing hint, though: There aren't any unnamed sisters in the Lineage.
quote:
originally posted by Jakk:
Anyway, my question (and hopefully the answer to this one isn't under NDA as well) is: are Keldroun's children Gorann and Gorauna twins? It's obvious that they're both named for his slain brother Gordroun, but I thought that they might be twins as well...
No, they are not twins, and actually are not named after Gordroun. Gorann, if you notice, is born in 284DR, and Gordroun was slain in 289DR.

quote:
Thanks again! No more lineage questions, I promise.
I don't mind the questions, but the fact is that if it's in the Lineage, I can't answer the question. And while I applaud your attempts at a thorough understanding of the familial relationships, we've taken years trying to seal in these cracks; if we missed an issue, it's news to us (Ed, George, and me). I hope that the Royal Lineage will see the sun some day, and soon, but I've sadly got to dodge questions as best I can about it until then. :/
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Jakk
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  19:24:45  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Are they grandsons and granddaughters of (a) Berost, Gorann, and/or Ulbaeram, or of (b) unnamed sisters of the three, or (c) a combination of the two?

One letter, that's all I ask. I suspect (b), particularly Berost and/or sisters, given that we have known offspring of Gorann and Ulbaeram.

Can't answer that. One letter is insufficient. Three, however, covers it: NDA.

A teasing hint, though: There aren't any unnamed sisters in the Lineage.


I don't doubt that they're all named in the full Royal Lineage document, as you've already said as much in our earlier discussion. I meant "unnamed in the succession snippet we are given in the GH"... Moriann has at least ten children including at least three sons and seven daughters, only one of whom is named in the GH: Tharyann, his tenth child and third son.

If what you mean is that there are no sisters of Berost, Gorann, and Ulbaeram (see (b) above) other than Gorauna (who is the only named sister in published material, and who herself was *NDA* prior to the GHotR seeing print), that narrows it down. Okay. I'm done speculating now, really... at least until your next teasing hint.

<snip>

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I don't mind the questions, but the fact is that if it's in the Lineage, I can't answer the question. And while I applaud your attempts at a thorough understanding of the familial relationships, we've taken years trying to seal in these cracks; if we missed an issue, it's news to us (Ed, George, and me). I hope that the Royal Lineage will see the sun some day, and soon, but I've sadly got to dodge questions as best I can about it until then. :/



My hopes are with yours on that, Garen. As I asked earlier, is there anyone we can write letters to with regard to the publication of such "hidden" lore? I love writing letters... as you've probably guessed by now.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 07 Nov 2008 19:30:30
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  20:14:22  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

It's certainly a possibility, if it works for your campaign.

Well, the PCs in my campaign were given the task of opening negotiations to that end. I had not decided whether they'd succeed or whether Cormyr would even consider the matter.

The PCs' schooner, The Pride of Suzail, has been a very successful privateer for the Freesails, taking five fighting pirate vessels as prizes during the last summer and turning 50% of the value over to the Crown even when they were forced by weather or circumstance to take port somewhere else. The Lord Mayor of Raven's Bluff thought that since the owners of the ship are both Ravenar and Cormyrean, they'd make good ambassadors (that, and they were heading there anyway and this way the embassage wouldn't cost the city anything).

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Technically speaking, the head of the Freesailors is not Ayesunder Truesilver, whose title is Warden of the Port at Maresember. The admiral of the Imperial Navy is officially the king of Cormyr, though he can assign those duties at his leisure.

I saw that Jerry Davis had made him head of the Freesailors and assumed that he based this on Ed's word or some canon source. I stand corrected, then.

Who then is the head of the organisation and how is it governed? Is there a council of old captains responsible for the bylaws and the annual dinner? Does each nation send a representative? How does it work?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

References to "galleons" should evoke notions the 500 ton ships of the day, though floating castles are just that--massive constructions. Caravels are the late medieval ships of the same name.

Thank you very much. That makes it much clearer.

I can assume, then, that the Cormyrean 'war caravels' (distinct from caravels) are the equivalent of caravela redonda and therefore the smaller forerunner of the galleon. That makes sense to me.

Very good.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

There's no stigma in needing to be stopped; the stigma is in sailing the Inner Sea as a flotilla. They would, in fact, be required to separate, with only one ship permitted to dock at a time, and the other two escorted and boarded ("inspected") while the others unloaded. This is to prevent both armed assault from sea and swarming attacks by massed, clearly-allied sailors.

Very well.

But one would think that given the massive pirate fleets that exist on the Inner Sea, sensible ship captains would only sail in armed convoys. After all, during historical wars, the relatively few privateers/pirates of the real world managed to have that effect in many places. Lone ships would be those sailing between out-of-the-way places or people trying to avoid paying a fee (or possibly smuggling).

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

No one attacks ships of Westgate entering or leaving harbor. It's dishonorable and borders on an act of war.

On the open sea, Freesailors might assault Westhavian ships, if they have enough men or arms to eliminate the opposing crew, or are otherwise strong enough that they need not fear reprisal. Westgate, however, does notice these things (assuming survivors are returned or escape), and Freesails can't perform such acts with absolute impunity.

I understand.

Remaining out of sight of land and taking note of who enters and leaves, following rich prizes, could be done. But it's most likely it would in an angry protest and either a Westhavian mercenary flotilla attacking the ship or the Crown deciding to call the offending ship back in for a War Wizard administered lesson in international amity. Right?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Freesailors hold a position somewhere between a privateer and a potentially-conscripted sailor. Freesails are expected to serve their country in times of war, and membership in the Freesailors is an explicit declaration of allegiance to a single power. They are free to stand with whatever allies they choose, but they cannot be Freesailors of multiple nations.

Fair enough.

There isn't any stigma attached to a Freesailor crewman taking service on another ship, is there? They're not bound to be Freesailors for life, are they (even though they may personally consider themselves, at least symbolically, still a part of the brotherhood)?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

This can potentially lead to very strained relations with the Crown of Cormyr, but this is a case where you have to do what's best for your campaign.

What works for my campaign is whatever is most realistic, based on what we know of Cormyr. I'm happy whether this is possible or not, and I like the fact that the Cormyrean-born members of the crew potentially have a conflict of loyalties.

Of the four native Cormyreans in the group, at least two people genuinely love Cormyr, one is an inhabitant of the outer marches and the descendant of Esparan nobility and hence somewhat ambigious about his feelings and one is somewhat bitter about being punished for the actions of her extended family. The others are split between wanting higher profits and wanting to serve their adopted home of Raven's Bluff.

If the crew is to stay together, they'd have to come to some sort of arrangement that at least allowed them to remain friendly with Cormyr. The captain is still a fierce patriot and wouldn't accept anything less.

If the owners of the ship (most of whom aren't native Cormyreans) democratically elected a new captain (while on shore, so that this would legally constitute a retirement of the captain and not a mutiny) and that captain declared his desire to serve HIS country as a privateer, would the Crown blame the old captain or would they merely be miffed at the new one?

Many merchant costers are multinational and outfitting a privateer vessel is (at least was in our world) a business like any other, so it's likely enough that this has happened before. A ship owned by the Six Coffers Market Priakos could well have been Cormyrean before Mirabeta Selkirk acquired her part in the operation and switched captains, removing someone loyal to Cormyr with someone loyal to her personally.

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Garen Thal
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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  20:58:06  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I saw that Jerry Davis had made him head of the Freesailors and assumed that he based this on Ed's word or some canon source. I stand corrected, then.

Who then is the head of the organisation and how is it governed? Is there a council of old captains responsible for the bylaws and the annual dinner? Does each nation send a representative? How does it work?
The Freesailors don't have bylaws or an annual dinner. They are a loose brotherhood of seamen who come together in mutual defense of one another, the nations they serve, and the sea at large. They owe collective allegiance to the three kingdoms that sponsor the brotherhood (Cormyr, Sembia and Impiltur), direct individual allegiance to their specific countries, and indirect, formal homage to the King of Cormyr (who is the head of the order).

quote:
But one would think that given the massive pirate fleets that exist on the Inner Sea, sensible ship captains would only sail in armed convoys. After all, during historical wars, the relatively few privateers/pirates of the real world managed to have that effect in many places. Lone ships would be those sailing between out-of-the-way places or people trying to avoid paying a fee (or possibly smuggling).
Lone ships are also those trying not be noticed, maintain a small profile, or remain maneuverable enough--thanks to not needing to watch out for companion ships--to escape.

The Freesailors are not active privateers during an ongoing war. They were formed to combat a specific piratical threat, and remain in existence, but their job is largely done, save when a charismatic captain gathers too many or too hungry a group of sailors.

quote:
Remaining out of sight of land and taking note of who enters and leaves, following rich prizes, could be done. But it's most likely it would in an angry protest and either a Westhavian mercenary flotilla attacking the ship or the Crown deciding to call the offending ship back in for a War Wizard administered lesson in international amity. Right?
Quite right.

quote:
There isn't any stigma attached to a Freesailor crewman taking service on another ship, is there? They're not bound to be Freesailors for life, are they (even though they may personally consider themselves, at least symbolically, still a part of the brotherhood)?
A Freesailor's status isn't of consequence unless he's in command of a ship. In service to a captain, a Freesailor follows his commander's orders, as he's supposed to. As a crewman, he's just a crewman.

quote:
What works for my campaign is whatever is most realistic, based on what we know of Cormyr. I'm happy whether this is possible or not, and I like the fact that the Cormyrean-born members of the crew potentially have a conflict of loyalties.

Of the four native Cormyreans in the group, at least two people genuinely love Cormyr, one is an inhabitant of the outer marches and the descendant of Esparan nobility and hence somewhat ambigious about his feelings and one is somewhat bitter about being punished for the actions of her extended family. The others are split between wanting higher profits and wanting to serve their adopted home of Raven's Bluff.

If the crew is to stay together, they'd have to come to some sort of arrangement that at least allowed them to remain friendly with Cormyr. The captain is still a fierce patriot and wouldn't accept anything less.

If the owners of the ship (most of whom aren't native Cormyreans) democratically elected a new captain (while on shore, so that this would legally constitute a retirement of the captain and not a mutiny) and that captain declared his desire to serve HIS country as a privateer, would the Crown blame the old captain or would they merely be miffed at the new one?

Many merchant costers are multinational and outfitting a privateer vessel is (at least was in our world) a business like any other, so it's likely enough that this has happened before. A ship owned by the Six Coffers Market Priakos could well have been Cormyrean before Mirabeta Selkirk acquired her part in the operation and switched captains, removing someone loyal to Cormyr with someone loyal to her personally.
The majority of Freesail ships are not trading vessels but ships of war, capable of carrying heavy tonnage but manned by fighting men in addition to capable sailors.

A ship's owner(s) can appoint whatever captain they like. That is the prerogative of possession. The former captain can serve the new captain, if he likes, but Cormyr will not judge him for the loss of his command. If that captain was a Freesailor, he would need to inform the Crown that his ship is no longer among the Freesails of Cormyr, and should not be called upon for aid.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  22:09:42  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

The Freesailors don't have bylaws or an annual dinner. They are a loose brotherhood of seamen who come together in mutual defense of one another, the nations they serve, and the sea at large. They owe collective allegiance to the three kingdoms that sponsor the brotherhood (Cormyr, Sembia and Impiltur), direct individual allegiance to their specific countries, and indirect, formal homage to the King of Cormyr (who is the head of the order).

Aww...

No social functions for Freesailors, then? When an old and respected captain retires, do his fellow captains not give some sort of farewell service? Are there no memorial services for those lost at sea? Or are these sometimes done, but on an ad hoc basis?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

The Freesailors are not active privateers during an ongoing war. They were formed to combat a specific piratical threat, and remain in existence, but their job is largely done, save when a charismatic captain gathers too many or too hungry a group of sailors.

From various mentions in official sourcebooks, I've gotten the impression that the pirates of the Fallen Stars are far from a spent force and still have vessels in the hundreds. I think Miklos Selkirk alone could command over a hundred.

Is it a wrong impression on my part to view all deep-sea travel over the Inner Sea as hazardous due to pirates?

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Jakk
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Canada
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Posted - 10 Nov 2008 :  19:43:40  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
<snip>
A teasing hint, though: There aren't any unnamed sisters in the Lineage.


I don't doubt that they're all named in the full Royal Lineage document, as you've already said as much in our earlier discussion. I meant "unnamed in the succession snippet we are given in the GH"... Moriann has at least ten children including at least three sons and seven daughters, only one of whom is named in the GH: Tharyann, his tenth child and third son.

If what you mean is that there are no sisters of Berost, Gorann, and Ulbaeram other than Gorauna (who is the only named sister in published material, and who herself was *NDA* prior to the GHotR seeing print), that narrows it down. Okay. I'm done speculating now, really... at least until your next teasing hint.
<snip>



I'll take silence on the above question to mean that my speculation is correct.

Another question for you, since nobody else has been pestering you here lately... has Faerlthann's wife been named anywhere outside the NDA zone? I was Googling for stuff, and I'm assuming that the answer is "so far, no" because I can't find any mention of her name.

On a related note, can you tell me what Suzara's maiden family name is? Or is that covered by the NDA blanket too?

Just to confirm: the third son that Suzara took back to Impiltur is Vaerom, who has five sons whose names have not been published, correct? And a full third question: Have the Cormyr-Impiltur connections been explored in depth by anyone (you, Ed, GK, others), and if so, is the information *NDA* or can it be shared?

Okay... three little questions is enough for now. I suspect that the lineage NDA will veto my first two answers, but my "third son" query comes from a REALMS-L posting from George (who else?) regarding Impiltur (part of "Imbrar's Inheritance" I believe).

Thanks again!

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 10 Nov 2008 19:44:30
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2008 :  19:55:29  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I'll take silence on the above question to mean that my speculation is correct.
Please, don't take my silence as anything other than evidence that I can't answer the question. Because I can't.
quote:
Another question for you, since nobody else has been pestering you here lately... has Faerlthann's wife been named anywhere outside the NDA zone? I was Googling for stuff, and I'm assuming that the answer is "so far, no" because I can't find any mention of her name.
So far, no. Sorry.
quote:
On a related note, can you tell me what Suzara's maiden family name is? Or is that covered by the NDA blanket too?
Suzara, like many folks, did not actually have a family name. So it's not violating any secrets to tell you that I can't tell you what it was, because it didn't exist.
quote:
Just to confirm: the third son that Suzara took back to Impiltur is Vaerom, who has five sons whose names have not been published, correct? And a full third question: Have the Cormyr-Impiltur connections been explored in depth by anyone (you, Ed, GK, others), and if so, is the information *NDA* or can it be shared?
Yes, Vaerom is the third son.

As for the Impiltur connections, there are tenuously explored in various places (the Lineage, Champions of Ruin, and a couple of other materials), but only scratch the surface. It's an interesting relationship, but not something (in my opinion) that defines the Forest Kingdom--it is not, to use a real-world example, akin to the homage William of Normandy owed the King of France when he claimed the crown of England.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2008 :  20:02:20  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
No social functions for Freesailors, then? When an old and respected captain retires, do his fellow captains not give some sort of farewell service? Are there no memorial services for those lost at sea? Or are these sometimes done, but on an ad hoc basis?
When a respected captain leaves the sea (through retirement), he is often visited by those that respect him at port, each of whom give him an honored dinner and treat him as a sort of ambassador.

When a respected captain dies, his colors are sometimes passed to the captain who best knew him. That captain then flies those colors of the dead captain for a year beneath all the other flags (national, personal, etc.) on his mast, before returning the colors to the captain's kin.

quote:
From various mentions in official sourcebooks, I've gotten the impression that the pirates of the Fallen Stars are far from a spent force and still have vessels in the hundreds. I think Miklos Selkirk alone could command over a hundred.

Is it a wrong impression on my part to view all deep-sea travel over the Inner Sea as hazardous due to pirates?
All deep-sea travel is dangerous, yes, but most vessels stay to the coasts. It's a longer trip, certainly, but far safer.

Commanding a hundred ships can cost well over a million gold pieces, from purchasing and repairing those ships, paying the sailors and their officers, stocking them with food and goods for travel, paying for guards to protect you from the pirates, and the bookkeepers and warehouse-keepers and mundane laborers necessary to keep things going. Such a massive undertaking would draw far too much attention, cost far too much coin, and in the end still be more dangerous than hiring ten thousand soldiers and conquering yourself a small nation.

Most pirate leaders barely command half a dozen or so ships, because their trust of other captains only stretches so far. A Sembian can't count the men he can trust on two hands, unless he's lost a few fingers from gambling debts...
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 11 Nov 2008 :  04:46:19  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

When a respected captain leaves the sea (through retirement), he is often visited by those that respect him at port, each of whom give him an honored dinner and treat him as a sort of ambassador.

When a respected captain dies, his colors are sometimes passed to the captain who best knew him. That captain then flies those colors of the dead captain for a year beneath all the other flags (national, personal, etc.) on his mast, before returning the colors to the captain's kin.

Excellent. Thank you.

I've got one more Freesailor question. In Pirates of the Fallen Stars, it's mentioned that membership is 'by invitation only'. Whose invitation would that be?

Can any Freesailor captain invite another to join, so long as the invitee holds a letter of marque and reprisal from Cormyr, Sembia or Impiltur? Must a certain minimum number of members vouch for him, besides the sponsoring captain? Must the nominal head of the order give his consent?

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

All deep-sea travel is dangerous, yes, but most vessels stay to the coasts. It's a longer trip, certainly, but far safer.

But Sembia and Cormyr then have a clear economic incentive to destroy the pirates or at least make attacks on them so costly that they dare not attack ships flying their colours.

So I wouldn't say that the work of the Freesailors is anywhere near finished.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Commanding a hundred ships can cost well over a million gold pieces, from purchasing and repairing those ships, paying the sailors and their officers, stocking them with food and goods for travel, paying for guards to protect you from the pirates, and the bookkeepers and warehouse-keepers and mundane laborers necessary to keep things going. Such a massive undertaking would draw far too much attention, cost far too much coin, and in the end still be more dangerous than hiring ten thousand soldiers and conquering yourself a small nation.

In the FRCS, page 145, it states that a pirate captain named Samagaer Silverblade commanded over a hundred ships in 1368 DR. It also states that this Silverblade is the same man as Miklos Selkirk.

Admittedly, his lieutinents now control only about a half of the ships he had before the Sahuagin War, but that's still a lot of ships for one man. Especially since there are other powerful leaders than him, such as Azla, Vurgrom the Mighty, Teldar and Xenz.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Most pirate leaders barely command half a dozen or so ships, because their trust of other captains only stretches so far. A Sembian can't count the men he can trust on two hands, unless he's lost a few fingers from gambling debts...


Absolutely. Nowhere was it mentioned that Selkirk could trust all of these men. ;)

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 11 Nov 2008 04:49:19
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2008 :  05:43:31  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Please, don't take my silence as anything other than evidence that I can't answer the question. Because I can't.

Okay. I'll make things up until I have canon to work from; if Wizards does retcons all the time, I can get away with them once in a while. And I messed up when I originally asked the question; I had to redo everything genealogical from scratch because I misread the listing in GHotR; Tharyann "the Elder" was the third son of Irbruin, not Moriann (who was the second son, and Tharyann's brother). I'm paying more attention to dates now.

quote:
So far, no. Sorry.

I thought not. No biggie; I'm just trying to find as many names of spouses of rulers as possible. Do you have a list of published (and hence NDA-exempt) such names? Because I suspect that they *all* have names, from what I've learned about this magnificent document from a variety of sources (mostly, indirectly, Google), but I know what my reasonable expectations are, and I try (really hard, as difficult as it is some times) to be reasonable.

quote:
Suzara, like many folks, did not actually have a family name. So it's not violating any secrets to tell you that I can't tell you what it was, because it didn't exist.

Okay. Why is it that there are no uninteresting secrets?

quote:
Yes, Vaerom is the third son.

Thanks. And his sons and other descendants are NDA, I assume?

quote:
As for the Impiltur connections, there are tenuously explored in various places (the Lineage, Champions of Ruin, and a couple of other materials), but only scratch the surface. It's an interesting relationship, but not something (in my opinion) that defines the Forest Kingdom--it is not, to use a real-world example, akin to the homage William of Normandy owed the King of France when he claimed the crown of England.

I thought as much, judging from what little I've found regarding the Impiltur Obarskyrs since Suzara's return. Can anything be said about the Obarskyrs of Impiltur other than Vaerom and his line (i.e., the "rest of the family": cousins of Ondeth, Villiam and Andar)?

Thanks again for the answers you were able to provide; hopefully we'll see the other answers sooner rather than later... but I won't hold my breath.

Edit: One more question that just occurred to me, and the answer is probably the usual three letters, but I'll try anyway: I just noticed (or, rather, was just struck by the significance) that Kasplara, Jasl, and Arathra succeeded to the throne in reverse order of birth. I'm assuming that the "why" of that is firmly NDA'd, but can you say whether or not any of these three and Barander are siblings, and if so, are there one set of siblings or two? I'm not asking whose offspring they are; I know the answer to that one to be "NDA". (I am paying attention to the answers I don't get. )

Sorry... I know I said "one more" but... we know from the GHotR that Thargreve "the Greater" slew Gorauna... can you tell us the year of that event, or is it also protected by NDA? I suspect it happened around the time Barander abdicated, in fact just before; given what we know about Barander, he was only king by Gorauna's machinations, and didn't really want the throne, so when Thargreve killed his scheming grandmother (Barander's great-aunt), Barander was only too happy to surrender the crown. Or at least that's how I see it. If you can confirm this, great; if you can't comment, I understand; and if I'm altogether on the wrong track and you can tell me so, even better. Thanks again! I'll try not to come up with any more questions tonight (it's 10:40 PM on the 10th here on the West Coast right now).

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 11 Nov 2008 06:43:18
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