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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1707 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  19:17:37  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk Come to think of it, George should have his own scroll too, being our resident expert on Impiltur... George? Sage? Any thoughts?


His own scroll? That's aiming WAY too low. I think WotC should put him on retainer, with an official title and a regular paycheck.





Tried that once, long ago, to no avail. Too bad, really, for all concerned.

Now Brian/Garen, apologies for not getting over here sooner to congratulate you on the well-deserved little group by the sea here. Very tidy. Where do you keep your beer?

Seriously, Brian's a great contributor to the Realms and I know I'm glad to count him among my friends and fellow Faerunians.

And just to keep this from being an admiration society, how's this for a posited idea (which may or may not be reacting from long ago conversations with Ed or you or Grant or someone)?

All those "X-silver" families were descended from a group of folks who struck immense wealth by cooperatively finding Cormyr's equivalent to the Comstock Lode? They all built their wealth off of silver ore, even though that vein may have long since been played out. Now, all that's left are the many silver heirlooms and the names. Does that work within your concept of Cormyr society?

Steven
who's still chewing on a number of topics and ideas from our get-togethers at Gen Con this year.....


For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6642 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2008 :  23:26:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk Come to think of it, George should have his own scroll too, being our resident expert on Impiltur... George? Sage? Any thoughts?


His own scroll? That's aiming WAY too low. I think WotC should put him on retainer, with an official title and a regular paycheck.





I'd be happy to do it for free. As I was getting into the Realms I remember thinking that I would love to have Jeff Grubb's old "FR traffic cop" job.

But given the FR changes in 4E, the position is redundant methinks.

Oh, and I've had something of a re-think regarding having my own scroll. Simply because I realised the other day that it would probably be a good idea to keep better track of my random FR musings as my own archiving of same has been haphazard at best.

That and the fact that I can't let Brian get one up on me as he already trumps me in the good looks stakes.

So 'powers that be', I'd love a scroll thanks. It might get a bit dusty and underutilised, but I'm sure someone will get some use out of it.

-- George Krashos

P.S. Oh, and unlike the rest of the people here, I'm fortunate to be able to ignore the NDA demon better than most. There aren't any NDAs in place regarding material that will appear in my thread - just my random musings and thoughts.

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 23 Oct 2008 23:28:33
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2008 :  00:53:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos


So 'powers that be', I'd love a scroll thanks. It might get a bit dusty and underutilised, but I'm sure someone will get some use out of it.

-- George Krashos


Is done.
Questions for George Krashos

I'd been wanting to start a questions thread for someone!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Oct 2008 00:54:30
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2008 :  02:30:36  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

But given the FR changes in 4E, the position is redundant methinks.
You'll never be redundant George. At least not to me, and never here at Candlekeep.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2008 :  03:42:21  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Are Azoun's bastards documented in the previously-discussed Holy Grail of Cormyrean noble bloodlines? A simple "No," "In part," or "Fully" will suffice, but if more information is open for disclosure, I'll happily receive it.
The answer to your question is "not really." The Royal Lineage of Cormyr is concerned with the members of the Blood Royal that are relevant to the passage of the Crown and the history of the Forest Kingdom. Since the bastards of Azoun are fairly numerous, and since they also haven't much affected Cormyr's development, including them would throw the document off its course. The Azoun's Offspring article from 2006 does deal with the recognized bastards of Azoun's youth, but beyond those, there are (unsurprisingly) more illiegitimate sons and daughters of the Old Lion of Cormyr.

There's another reason that these children are not detailed beyond a desire to reveal them in more dramatic fashion: play opportunities. Being able to throw in a charismatic war captain or monastic hero that is a secret (and suddenly-aware) royal bastard is too delicious a possibility to rob DMs of.


Mod Edit: Fixed the link.

Edited by - The Sage on 24 Oct 2008 04:04:20
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2008 :  06:32:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Besides, Azoun's got enough illegitimate kids to populate a small city.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2008 :  16:46:23  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Besides, Azoun's got enough illegitimate kids to populate a small city.



At least a town the size of Eveningstar, anyway.

Re: disclosure on the offspring: That's what I was thinking, on both counts. As an amateur genalogist, I know that genealogies get complicated enough showing the descendants of two relationships involving the same person... as does Krash, from his work on Impiltur.

Thanks again for the answers, Garen. My pace of question-flinging should slow somewhat now that I'm employed again, so hopefully you'll have a greater variety of answer-seekers to keep this scroll busy.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 28 Oct 2008 16:49:57
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2008 :  16:49:06  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Re: disclosure on the offspring: That's what I was thinking, on both counts. As an amateur genalogist, I know that genealogies get complicated enough showing the descendants of two relationships involving the same person... as does Krash, from his work on Impiltur.
Oh, George is well aware of how complicated the Cormyr Lineage is, believe me. He's the one I've bounced all my "Hey, does this solution work?" suggestions to fix various quandaries off. He's got more freedom on Impiltur (thank goodness), both to create and share his creation, and I can't wait to see that masterpiece when it's done.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2008 :  17:00:28  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Thanks again for the answers, Garen. My pace of question-flinging should slow somewhat now that I'm employed again, so hopefully you'll have a greater variety of answer-seekers to keep this scroll busy.
Don't be silly; I enjoy the questions. They make me feel like someone's listening and I'm not just babbling to myself...
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2008 :  03:57:17  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Re: disclosure on the offspring: That's what I was thinking, on both counts. As an amateur genalogist, I know that genealogies get complicated enough showing the descendants of two relationships involving the same person... as does Krash, from his work on Impiltur.
Oh, George is well aware of how complicated the Cormyr Lineage is, believe me. He's the one I've bounced all my "Hey, does this solution work?" suggestions to fix various quandaries off. He's got more freedom on Impiltur (thank goodness), both to create and share his creation, and I can't wait to see that masterpiece when it's done.



You and me both, and a lot of others, I suspect.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  07:45:31  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Thanks again for the answers, Garen. My pace of question-flinging should slow somewhat now that I'm employed again, so hopefully you'll have a greater variety of answer-seekers to keep this scroll busy.

Don't be silly; I enjoy the questions. They make me feel like someone's listening and I'm not just babbling to myself...


Okay then, I have another one for you... I was actually drawing up the Obarskyr family tree, as far as is possible with what's available, and I was wondering why the information on the successors of Keldroun is so patchy. Meurthe, Jasl, Kasplara, and Arathra are all described in terms of their relationship to Gorauna, rather than in terms of who their mothers and/or fathers are. Mind you, I'd like to know more about Gorauna herself... she's an odd duck if there ever was one. However, I'm expecting a red alert NDA here, seeing as you couldn't provide any similar information about the Silvers, but I thought I should ask the question anyway in case you could at least tell me *why* the information in the GHotR succession was phrased the way it was. That's all.

Edit: A more general question that you might be better able to help out with: A simple yes-or-no: Are the unnamed siblings of kings named in the Big List? For instance, Tharyann, father of Boldovar the Mad, is described as being the third son and tenth child of Moriann, so he has two older brothers and seven older sisters, not to mention younger siblings, all of whom are unnamed in my sources. Thanks again, for anything you can give me other than "NDA".

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 03 Nov 2008 07:54:07
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  14:07:03  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Okay then, I have another one for you... I was actually drawing up the Obarskyr family tree, as far as is possible with what's available, and I was wondering why the information on the successors of Keldroun is so patchy. Meurthe, Jasl, Kasplara, and Arathra are all described in terms of their relationship to Gorauna, rather than in terms of who their mothers and/or fathers are.
The time of those rulers is known in Cormyr as the Thronestrife, when Gorauna controlled the Royal House. George determined it would work better describing things from relation to her, rather than from their respectivel parents. More than that,I can't say, other than that it is known whose children and grandchildren (and such) each of those rulers are.
quote:
A more general question that you might be better able to help out with: A simple yes-or-no: Are the unnamed siblings of kings named in the Big List? For instance, Tharyann, father of Boldovar the Mad, is described as being the third son and tenth child of Moriann, so he has two older brothers and seven older sisters, not to mention younger siblings, all of whom are unnamed in my sources. Thanks again, for anything you can give me other than "NDA".
Yes, they are named.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  21:33:34  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Okay then, I have another one for you... I was actually drawing up the Obarskyr family tree, as far as is possible with what's available, and I was wondering why the information on the successors of Keldroun is so patchy. Meurthe, Jasl, Kasplara, and Arathra are all described in terms of their relationship to Gorauna, rather than in terms of who their mothers and/or fathers are.

The time of those rulers is known in Cormyr as the Thronestrife, when Gorauna controlled the Royal House. George determined it would work better describing things from relation to her, rather than from their respectivel parents. More than that,I can't say, other than that it is known whose children and grandchildren (and such) each of those rulers are.
quote:
A more general question that you might be better able to help out with: A simple yes-or-no: Are the unnamed siblings of kings named in the Big List? For instance, Tharyann, father of Boldovar the Mad, is described as being the third son and tenth child of Moriann, so he has two older brothers and seven older sisters, not to mention younger siblings, all of whom are unnamed in my sources. Thanks again, for anything you can give me other than "NDA".
Yes, they are named.


That was everything I was expecting to learn, if not all I was hoping for. Now, we just need to convince Wizards that the rest of this information is worth making available... the basic stuff, anyway; I don't expect you and Ed to spill the beans on the more interesting specific mysteries like the twice-slain Thatoryl Elian, unless there's no chance of the novel being asked for. Can you tell me whether or not the applicable NDAs are for projects that are being actively worked on, or is that too vague a question to bother answering? I just want to know if the information has a gelugon's chance in Nessus of coming to light.

Edit: I *am* very curious now as to why George decided it would "work better" to describe Gorauna's relations in such a way... but Gorauna herself is an interesting character, so it's understandable in that sense. Of course, now I'm just that much more curious, but I won't do any more fishing. I'm assuming that there is a reason, and that we will learn what that reason is when and if the document is made public. I'm thinking the records have been sealed for 75 years; I believe that's the standard for assassinations of heads of state, correct?

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 03 Nov 2008 21:44:40
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  21:43:48  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Can you tell me whether or not the applicable NDAs are for projects that are being actively worked on, or is that too vague a question to bother answering? I just want to know if the information has a gelugon's chance in Nessus of coming to light.
The only real answer to this question is "NDA." If it was being "actively worked on," assuming you mean "for the purpose of publication," I wouldn't be allowed to say, and if it's not, it's still under informal NDA by WotC.

I will tell you that the Lineage is always being actively worked on, by which I mean that every piece of information that's released that might possibly affect the core body of knowledge is poured over and reconciled as best as my little mind can manage. Asking about this issue here will, I'm afraid, not bear much fruit; I will continue to work on the Lineage until it is either published or Ed tells me to give it up, neither or which has happened yet.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  21:50:14  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your patience, Brian. I'll shut up now and let you disseminate *real* Realmslore. Hopefully I can come up with some questions you *can* answer, but as near as I can tell, if it's something I don't know and I'm curious about, it's regarding specific lineages or individuals, and hence under NDA.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  21:54:02  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

Thanks for your patience, Brian. I'll shut up now and let you disseminate *real* Realmslore. Hopefully I can come up with some questions you *can* answer, but as near as I can tell, if it's something I don't know and I'm curious about, it's regarding specific lineages or individuals, and hence under NDA.
Heh!

Frankly, a lot of the stuff related to Cormyr is off-limits because of the Lineage. It's mainly related to the Blood Royal and related families (like the Silver families and its offshoots), though, so I'm pretty free to answer more outlying questions, or to pontificate on matters of descent, inheritance, noble privelege, etc. within the Forest Kingdom.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6642 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2008 :  23:48:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gorauna is "it" in Cormyr during the Thronestrife period and wove a tangled legitimate and illegitimate Obarskyr line of succession that suited her - as such I thought it fitting that the lineage reflect her absolute power in that period.

Truthfully, the original Grant Christie lineage did it from this perspective and I decided to keep it as is (whilst filling in spots in and around it) out of respect for his hard work. Brian has in turn respected this design decision also.

Mainly I think because he's a heck of a great guy and because he's likely a secret Highknight just waiting to bust out of his "deep cover".

The lineage has gone through some interesting changes and transformations over the last 8 or so years. I've actually seen transcriptions of Ed's original notes and what Grant did to them to get a skeleton lineage in place. He then started adding flesh before passing the torch to me. I focused on giving every monarch some detail (there were several who had no info at all other than birth/death and reign dates) and trolling through the extant Cormyr lore and adding it in as I thought it best fit (ala things like the "Lords Who Sleep").

Brian then totally hijacked the lineage, came up with some absolutely sensational lore on things like Thatoryl Elian and Encharin and made me realise that my Cormyr mojo had now headed to points east. He transitioned into the 'keeper' quite easily, although I do confess that bits of me found it hard to let go and let the young, whipper-snapper do his thing. I'm so very glad my ego let him strut his stuff - his subsequent ideas and design work feel "right" and make me realise that my choices likely wouldn't have.

The lineage is a beautiful thing, and a model for my Impiltur one that is building, increment by increment. The Cormyr lineage will always be the best and brightest however. I hope to see the day it is shared with the fans.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Nov 2008 23:57:15
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  00:55:49  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos


<snip>
The lineage has gone through some interesting changes and transformations over the last 8 or so years. I've actually seen transcriptions of Ed's original notes and what Grant did to them to get a skeleton lineage in place. He then started adding flesh before passing the torch to me. I focused on giving every monarch some detail (there were several who had no info at all other than birth/death and reign dates) and trolling through the extant Cormyr lore and adding it in as I thought it best fit (ala things like the "Lords Who Sleep").

Brian then totally hijacked the lineage, came up with some absolutely sensational lore on things like Thatoryl Elian and Encharin and made me realise that my Cormyr mojo had now headed to points east. He transitioned into the 'keeper' quite easily, although I do confess that bits of me found it hard to let go and let the young, whipper-snapper do his thing. I'm so very glad my ego let him strut his stuff - his subsequent ideas and design work feel "right" and make me realise that my choices likely wouldn't have.

The lineage is a beautiful thing, and a model for my Impiltur one that is building, increment by increment. The Cormyr lineage will always be the best and brightest however. I hope to see the day it is shared with the fans.

-- George Krashos



I hope to see that day too, George... but I've learned to keep my hopes and expectations in conflict. My surprises are all pleasant ones that way.

The reconciliation of two different death dates for Thatoryl Elian is another bugbear I've been curious about, but I've already dumped that can of worms in Brian's lap... he deftly caught said worms in a handy NDA created for just that purpose.

However, if there's anything that either of you can tell me about the "Lords Who Sleep" I'm all ears... all I know is that they died during the ghazneth conflict in the Cormyr trilogy (which I read some years ago, and can't recall nearly enough of now).

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  01:50:14  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The reconciliation of two different death dates for Thatoryl Elian is another bugbear I've been curious about, but I've already dumped that can of worms in Brian's lap... he deftly caught said worms in a handy NDA created for just that purpose.
So far as I can tell, the lore all points to Thatoryl Elian being slain in -75DR by Andar Obarskyr, elder brother to the famous (and founding) Ondeth.

Was there another date?
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  02:42:09  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you know if Cormyrean naval vessels render passing honours to vessels of any other nations? If so, to whom? Or, if passing honours are standard, to whom are they denied? Pirates, obviously, even if they were to fly a standard of some pirate 'republic'/'kingdom' or other, but is there anyone else?

In other words, is there any nation or city state which comes into contact with Cormyr, but is considered illegitimate by the authorities? Such as, perhaps, Zhentarim vessels or vessels from Westgate or Starmantle.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  03:18:13  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Do you know if Cormyrean naval vessels render passing honours to vessels of any other nations? If so, to whom? Or, if passing honours are standard, to whom are they denied? Pirates, obviously, even if they were to fly a standard of some pirate 'republic'/'kingdom' or other, but is there anyone else?
There are relatively very few (a little over two dozen) genuine warships of Cormyr in the 1370s, and these tend to afford passing honors only peaceful ships of allied or neutral powers (Impiltur, Sembia before Netheril struck, Aglarond, and a few others). War ships do not get passing honors from Cormyrean ships, because those ships are relegated to the Lake of Dragons, where ships of other nations are not welcome unless there for trade.

Ships manned by Freesailors are far more common east of the Neck, and these ships afford honors based on their captains' attitudes, with the exception that ships of Cormyr, Impiltur and Sembia (the patrons of the Freesailors) all get passing honors.

quote:
In other words, is there any nation or city state which comes into contact with Cormyr, but is considered illegitimate by the authorities? Such as, perhaps, Zhentarim vessels or vessels from Westgate or Starmantle.
Zhentil Keep and Westgate aren't considered "legitimate," but passing honors aren't as developed in the Realms as they are in real-world naval history. Thay, for instance, doesn't get passing honors, though Cormyr and other nations recognize their rule.

Essentially, allies get passing honors, neutrals and enemies don't. Vessels flying flags of "rogue" locales (like Westgate or Zhentil Keep) may be sunk by Freesailors depending on their perception of relative power, but are entirely unwelcome within the Lake of Dragons--to the point of being attacked on sight.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  04:13:00  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

There are relatively very few (a little over two dozen) genuine warships of Cormyr in the 1370s, and these tend to afford passing honors only peaceful ships of allied or neutral powers (Impiltur, Sembia before Netheril struck, Aglarond, and a few others). War ships do not get passing honors from Cormyrean ships, because those ships are relegated to the Lake of Dragons, where ships of other nations are not welcome unless there for trade.

Ships manned by Freesailors are far more common east of the Neck, and these ships afford honors based on their captains' attitudes, with the exception that ships of Cormyr, Impiltur and Sembia (the patrons of the Freesailors) all get passing honors.

Very good. A few related questions.

What are the odds that the Vast cities, being cultularly and geographically related to these nations, could apply to and receive a similar membership in the Freesails? In other words, that Raven's Bluff (at least, and perhaps Procampur and Tsurlagol later) could maintain its own contingent of Freesails in lieu of a proper Navy and that this contingent would be allied with the other Freesails.*

How does Cormyr distinguish a 'war' ship from a 'peaceful' one? For example, a galleon or caravel can certainly be used for both trading or war and it's not like counting cannon is going to distinguish them.

Would a galleon out of the Vast, for example, be in any danger of being turned away or attacked because it was armed with several ballistae and carried an armed crew?

By the way, approximately how long is a Cormyrean 'war caravel'? How long are their galleons? How long is Filfaeril, the new fast galleon? Approximately how much do they displace? The historical vessels which bore these names have during their long history varied in size by more than an order of magnitude, which is a bit much for my tastes.

I'm wondering whether a trading convoy of two 'frigates' (130' long vessels designed to be faster, slimmer and handier than galleons) and a three-masted 90' long raker would be considered a prudent measure when sailing near the Pirate Isles or an intolerable threat to Cormyr's sovereignity of the sea if it desired to enter the Dragonmere.

quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

Essentially, allies get passing honors, neutrals and enemies don't. Vessels flying flags of "rogue" locales (like Westgate or Zhentil Keep) may be sunk by Freesailors depending on their perception of relative power, but are entirely unwelcome within the Lake of Dragons--to the point of being attacked on sight.


Could a Freesailor vessel freely board and seize any vessel sailing from Westgate that doesn't show the flag of a friendly power? Is such a prize handled in the same manner as pirate ships taken under arms?

I ask because if so, my players will undoubtedly go back to their privateer roots and basically make Westgate an untenable harbour for anyone but allies of Cormyr.

Also, are ships required to show national flags? For example, do Sembian merchant vessels sail under the mark of their coster, their country or both? Is anyone not showing any flag presumed to be a pirate or at least a smuggler (not unreasonable, given that there appear to be more pirate vessels on the Inner Sea than naval vessels)?

More on Freesailors. How much freedom do they have?

Can they sail their ships whereever on the Inner Sea they please? Can they take passengers at the discretion of their captain, even from nations that Cormyr considers hostile or at least dubious (Thay, Zhentil Keep)? Can they function as merchant ships, earning money for a non-Cormyrean trading company? How is it viewed if their officers decide to take a hand in hostilities that do not involve Cormyr, such as that between Mulhorand and Unther? Are they seen as private citizens acting on their own initiative or is it viewed as tantamount to a declaration of war?

How does one cease to a be a Freesailor? Can the owner of a ship suddenly decide that he'd prefer to be an independent mercenary ship? Can he decide that he still wants to be a Freesailor, but a Sembian or Impilturan one (or a Raven's Bluff one, if the allegiance should ever come to be)?

*My PCs were given the task of acting as ambassadors for an airing of this idea as their trade takes them to Cormyr, one of their ships already belongs to the Cormyrean Freesails and the membership of their group is mixed Cormyrean (noble and common), Sembian and Raven's Bluff, including at least one knight of the city and an important merchant.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  11:48:39  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
However, if there's anything that either of you can tell me about the "Lords Who Sleep" I'm all ears... all I know is that they died during the ghazneth conflict in the Cormyr trilogy (which I read some years ago, and can't recall nearly enough of now).



The Lords Who Sleep ... ... I had at various times a Dragon/Dungeon article in the works for those fellows. But then Troy Denning decided to kill them all. Offstage. Finito. One of the less inspired decisions of the FR novel line IMO.

What follows is the beginnings of a Dragon article that I held onto for sentimental reasons.

“When Sitral’s brood pace the cobbles deep,
And great wyrms scour the twisted stones,
Ondeth’s blood will set the Lords Who Sleep
To slumber in Grolag’s bones.
For legions of fiends and the walking dead
Will bring ruin to this wooded land,
Unless those who should have been long dead
Array for battle and take stand.”

“The Foretellings”
Alaundo of Candlekeep
The Year of the Smiling Prophet (-58DR)

The realm of Cormyr has claimed the Stonelands, that area of trackless ravines and stone monoliths atop a rugged and imposing plateau north of the Storm Horns, for many centuries. Yet in all those long years Cormyr’s rule over the Stonelands has never exceeded the reach of a Purple Dragon’s blade. As the centuries have rolled on, various Cormyrean monarchs have awarded ambitious and successful adventurers the title “Baron of the Stonelands”, and charged them with building fortresses, fighting monsters and in truth holding the region for Cormyr. Such endeavors have met with limited success over the passing years however, due to the countless humanoids that infest the region and the vile machinations of the Zhentarim aimed at controlling overland trade routes throughout the Inner Sea. Yet the truth of Cormyr’s quest to rule the Stonelands lies in a secret known only to a few sages, the royal family of Cormyr and its High Wizard, and a shadowy group known as the Guardians. The secret relates to The Lords Who Sleep, great warriors placed in magical temporal stasis long ago to await the hour when the prophecy of the long-dead seer Alaundo would come to pass. As a matter of policy, the royal court of Cormyr refers to these stalwarts as “the Sleeping Sword”, so that most who overhear believe that an actual, magical sword is being spoken of.

History of The Sleeping Sword

The blood of House Obarskyr was fresh on the soil of Cormyr when King Keldroun succeeded his brothers Torst and Gordroun in the Year of the Waking Dreams (289 DR). King Torst and Gordroun had perished in flooded Marsember at the hands of Belorth “the Pretender” and his father, the pirate Kurrurdan, and Keldroun saw to it that Gordroun was crowned posthumously although he truly never ruled the Forest Kingdom.

Due to the suddenness with which Keldroun had the ruler’s mantle thrust upon him, the High Wizard Baerauble, along with the patriarchs of the Silver noble families, chose Aluth Greatgaunt to be the king’s constant companion and advisor. Aluth was a common born general who was blessed with great energy, foresight and an unshakeable loyalty to the Obarskyr line. He tempered the young king’s rashness and gently steered him toward a path of securing the realm against future harm.

The spread of great Anauroch in the half a century preceding the rule of King Keldroun, had seen the gradual disintegration of Hlundadim, the goblin nation north of the Storm Horns. The lapping sands of the Great Desert had brought this once mighty foe of Cormyr low, and many goblinkin fled into the High Moors, the Stonelands, and the northern fringes of Cormyr rather than face the brutal elements. King Keldroun led the Royal Host of Cormyr in hunting down the goblinkin raiders that plagued the northern settlements, and supported Melandrar Greatwyrm, an old battle companion of Aluth Greatgaunt’s, in his efforts to claim and hold the Stonelands for the kingdom as a first bulwark against the humanoid raiders. The “Stone Baron”, as Melandrar came to be known, led his mounted knights on many forays into the treacherous ravines of the Stonelands, slaying countless humanoids, and establishing the Stonebolt Trail, a crucial trade route connecting Cormyr with Myth Drannor. He also built a chain of hill forts west of the Stonebolt Trail to guard against the raids of the goblinkin that plagued the many trade caravans that now passed through the area.

Having brought stability to Cormyr, King Keldroun’s sense of satisfaction was deeply shaken by the counsel he received from Baerauble, High Wizard of Cormyr, in the Year of the Vintner’s Dagger (291 DR). The archmage brought to the king’s attention the passage from the prophecies of Alaundo that all scholars and sages agreed referred to the kingdom of Cormyr. Baerauble was sure that the time of Alaundo’s dread prophecy was nigh, pointing to submerged Marsember and the activities of Melandrar, the “great wyrm” of the prophecy, to support his belief. After taking counsel with Lord Greatgaunt, and being persuaded that his most loyal adviser was in firm agreement with the High Wizard, Keldroun had the Royal Sage Imindarth search the libraries and archives of the court for any reference to the mysterious “Grolag” of whom Alaundo spoke. Several days of feverish searching brought rewarding news when Imindarth discovered a reference to a goblin army of Hlundadim led by a chieftain named Grolag. King Moriann of Cormyr had defeated Grolag and his army in the Year of the Cold Enchanter (199 DR) in an area of the Stonelands known as the Needlespires for its countless, upward thrusting columns of stone. To the delight of King Keldroun, Baron Melandrar declared that he knew the site well, for it was a place avoided by the humanoids of the region, and used often by his men as a base camp.

Having unraveled the mystery of the reference to “Grolag’s bones” in the prophecy, the king’s closest advisors bent their wisdom toward deducing what the final lines of the prophecy meant. After more than a tenday of sometimes heated discussion the view of the High Wizard Baerauble prevailed that the phrase “those who should have been long dead” meant warriors magically preserved past their normal lifespans, rather than undead or the recipients of unreliable longevity magics. The task of selecting the warriors and constructing their place of rest fell to Lord Greatgaunt and he went about his work with the greatest possible secrecy and speed.

In the months that followed various well-known noble sons and some more notorious members of the nobility were recruited by Lord Greatgaunt to become The Lords Who Sleep. Having passed the rigorous magical probing of the High Wizard Baerauble, these worthies were whisked away by the High Wizard’s Art to the underground fastness that had been constructed beneath the Needlespires ...

That's about as far as I got before "Beyond the High Road" destroyed that little lore hook.

As an aside I can note that the creation of the Sleeping Sword led indirectly to the death of King Keldroun. The sudden disappearance of a host of younger noble sons sent rumours swirling that Keldroun was killing off various noble lines or kidnapping its members for his own evil, future plans. Nothing could have been further from the truth, but that didn't stop him being murdered by a group of allied nobles from the Turcassan, Immerdusk and Huntcrown families who saw the disappearance of their kin and younglings as a direct attack against their families' survival.

I recall from Ed's notes that Melandrar had a weredragon (song dragon) consort who was one of the Guardians like Emperel. Other notable members of the Sleeping Sword included Gelroth Turcassan "the Crimson Cavalier" (named such for his rose-hued platemail and his devotion to Sune), Andonia Huntcrown (a deadly warrior who many considered the best sword wielder, male or female, in the kingdom at that time) and the twins Arbruin and Erbruin Immerdusk (known as the "Bearblades" for their massive height and girth and proclivity to spout forth almost unintelligible warcries in the thick of battle).

I do recall that Brian mentioned to me a couple of years ago that he had "plans" for the Sleeping Sword and I remember that he had a 'play' with my rhyme above, but I'm not sure what happened to that project? Brian?

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  12:51:04  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent post George

Mantle Lore and The Lords Who Sleep in the same day - it doesn't get much better than that :)

Thank you for your ongoing work on the Realms

Kind regards

Damian


So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  13:42:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two questions, Krash:

1) What was the inspiration for the Lords Who Sleep?

2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?

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Garen Thal
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  14:21:28  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I do recall that Brian mentioned to me a couple of years ago that he had "plans" for the Sleeping Sword and I remember that he had a 'play' with my rhyme above, but I'm not sure what happened to that project? Brian?
Not a project, exactly. Just Plans, still unhatched.

There was a bit of play I had with the rhyme, but it's lost in the files of my home computer, and would need a bit of time to dig up.
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Garen Thal
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  14:24:32  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
1) What was the inspiration for the Lords Who Sleep?
The design inspiration, or the in-character one? Design, you'd have to ask Ed, but it boils down to having an ever-present and legendary tale floating around Cormyr of defenders that will rise up in the kingdom's hour of greatest need. It's the 'Once and Future King' line of thinking, but for FR.

In-character, I think George has covered things quite nicely.
quote:
2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?
Not in their original form, exactly, but it's certainly possible that someone had the idea. Highlight for spoilers.

Vangerdahast certainly had such an idea, leading to his plans that are revealed in Elminster's Daughter and his eventual transformation into a dragon.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  16:12:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?
Not in their original form, exactly, but it's certainly possible that someone had the idea. Highlight for spoilers.

Vangerdahast certainly had such an idea, leading to his plans that are revealed in Elminster's Daughter and his eventual transformation into a dragon.



Yeah, I remember that, but I was curious about the idea of a Lords Who Sleep 2, basically -- trying the same idea again, with better security, perhaps.

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George Krashos
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Australia
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  21:43:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Two questions, Krash:

1) What was the inspiration for the Lords Who Sleep?

2) Do you think they would have been reconstituted some time after their destruction?



The Lords Who Sleep have been with us since the Ol' Grey Box, specifically the NPC write-up of Emperel.

I've always considered them to be similar in concept to the sleeping knights of a book called "The Wierdstone of Brisingamen" by Alan Garner. Knowing Ed, he came up with the concept independently (and it is a staple of fantasy literature, as Brian points out) but Garner writes fairly evocatively about his sleeping knights and if I'd got a decent Dragon/Dungeon article up and running, I'd have drawn from his prose.

I also tinkered with doing a Lords Who Sleep II but Ed told me he was in the process of doing so. As Brian again points out (this is his thread after all - which I'm ungraciously sticking my nose into) this concept was hinted at in the novel "Elminster's Daughter" with dragons replacing humans.

I must say I love the concept of warriors held in stasis until they are "needed" and the original Sleeping Sword was a wonderful, wonderful bit of realmslore that did not receive its proper due.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Nov 2008 :  22:59:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd forgotten that bit about Emperel -- it's been quite some time since I read the Old Grey Box.

While I do like what Vangey is doing, I'd still love to see a mostly human version of the Lords Who Sleep get redone.

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