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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 19:01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
While it would be interesting to see Ed's original vision of the Realms, I wouldn't be interested in seeing everything we got since TSR bought the setting from him thrown out. I mean, I like the Realms as they are pre-$ellplague... even Maztica.
-Indeed, this was my point. The Forgotten Realms as we know them (1e, 2e, 3e) =/= Ed Greenwood's original Forgotten Realms. We, I, you, whatever, might like the Forgotten Realms as we know them (1e, 2e, 3e), but not like Ed Greenwood's original Forgotten Realms. Or, of course, vice versa. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 19:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, as I've mentioned elsewhere, part of the reason I'd reset to right after Cloak & Dagger is to continue forward, from that point, adapting/changing/ignoring the 3E events as necessary.
-It was more of a rhetorical question, to demonstrate that, there isn't an extremely abrupt transition point, in which on one side, there are things we like, more or less, and on the other side, things we don't like, more or less. I'd, personally, choose 1,375 DR as the point to "continue on". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 14 Oct 2008 19:03:44 |
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Baragon Geddarm
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 19:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, as I've mentioned elsewhere, part of the reason I'd reset to right after Cloak & Dagger is to continue forward, from that point, adapting/changing/ignoring the 3E events as necessary.
-It was more of a rhetorical question, to demonstrate that, there isn't an extremely abrupt transition point, in which on one side, there are things we like, more or less, and on the other side, things we don't like, more or less. I'd, personally, choose 1,375 DR as the point to "continue on".
I agree as well. I've no problems with starting 1375 and just altering what happened to 4e. I don't mind the system though (Nor do any of my players, including the guy who hates D&D period). So I had a few alterations that popped into my head I posted elsewhere.
1. A jump of about 10 years would have been a bit better to allow for changes to happen.
2. To explain the system changes in 4e (namely magic), rather than off Mystra (A task that seem to come with the job yet Ao keeps forgetting to put on the job description when he hires a new goddess), why not somehow have Shar and Cyric somehow imprison her (Realizing killing her would have some detrimental effects) which ends up having a weakening effect on the weave (Since she's not dead, just 'missing'). Spellcasters are forced to rely on foci to better channel the weave due to it's weakening and barriers between dimensions like the Feywild (And maybe even Aebir without having to yank it into the realms (If you're a fan of the Dragonborn that is)) begin to weaken (explain the changes to Moon Elves and Sun elves.)
3. Keep the pantheon. I admit, while a trimmed pantheon is a bit cleaner, But I'm a big fan of my three 2e FR gods books. Sure, some changes could occur. some gods re-invent themselves. But there's nothing wrong with they way it is IMO.
4. If the Spellplague is something you like (Or Sellplague as I heard someone mention it as. Kinda funny), why not have something happen to the zones (some if not all) of wild magic. Have them somehow change into pockets of the plague without making the plague to be some kind of magic hungry swarm of loucusts roaming the countryside. |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 21:02:11
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Nice to see Erik weighing in here. I hope that he can pass along our desire for a resurgence in the upbeat feel of the realms to his fellow authors.
Still, as it stands now, all you'd need to do is add jazz, Cadillacs, and trench coats to the realms and you'd have the perfect setting for film noirs. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
Edited by - Kamuraki on 14 Oct 2008 21:25:04 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 21:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
Nice to see Erik weighing in here. I hope that he can pass along our desire for a resurgence in the upbeat feel of the realms to his fellow authors.
That's an interesting thing to me, trying to get a handle on the upbeat/downbeat "feel" of the world.
What do people draw on particularly that creates the feel of a depressed/noirish sort of place?
I wonder how much of this isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think the game sourcebook doesn't do much for telling you about the optimism/depression of the state of the world. It just gives you the geography and lets you set whatever tone you want for your games. If you view the Realms as a depressing place (or if you are depressed about the changes), it stands to reason that the Realms becomes a depressing place.
I mean, to me, the dominant feel in the Realms has always been Sword-and-Sorcery, which originated in Howard's Conan work . . . and that's pretty gray and gritty. The Realms for me is the way the Realms exists in my writing--mostly bleak, but still filled with a fierce hope that outlasts all the bad guys.
Now, of course, there's wide range in the world (a story told in, say, peaceful and beautiful Silverymoon is different from one in the hellish mines of Sembia), so you should be able to set your campaign wherever you want--in places full of optimism or not. Do people feel as though that range isn't there anymore?
I've seen that range just in the novels we've had so far. Blackstaff Tower is generally upbeat and positive, not noirish at all--it's still the Realms of glittering noble parties and shady back-alley murders. Mistshore is very much a noir sort of fantasy story (and a really good one, too, that I would recommend to anyone). And I'd mention Downshadow but . . . meh. It'll wait until April. 
quote:
Still, as it stands now, all you'd need to do is add jazz, Cadillacs, and trench coats to the realms and you'd have the perfect setting for film noirs.
Heh, great image . . . but let's not give the gnomes the ideas. They're monsters now, after all--who knows what dastardly trickery they might get up to! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 21:30:18
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I'll concede that Blackstaff Tower was the first 4e book I read that got back to that old feeling. But will we see more of those characters? At this point we're wary to get attached to new story lines because we're not sure if there will be any follow-up to them.
And another thing just occurred to me. Perhaps our dislike of the changes in FR stems in part from our dislike of the turbulent changes occurring around the real world as well. We look to the FR novels as an escape to a place we're comfortable with. Where we can read new adventures about our favorite heroes and villains. But now, almost all of those characters have been killed off. So we've lost that old sense of reliability that people are craving, and made the realms so appealing to some of us. The remedy to this is obviously introduce some new, likable, RECURRING heroes and villains who give us hope for the franchise yet again. So get on it Sages  |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
Edited by - Kamuraki on 14 Oct 2008 21:32:27 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 22:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
And another thing just occurred to me. Perhaps our dislike of the changes in FR stems in part from our dislike of the turbulent changes occurring around the real world as well. We look to the FR novels as an escape to a place we're comfortable with. Where we can read new adventures about our favorite heroes and villains. But now, almost all of those characters have been killed off. So we've lost that old sense of reliability that people are craving, and made the realms so appealing to some of us. The remedy to this is obviously introduce some new, likable, RECURRING heroes and villains who give us hope for the franchise yet again. So get on it Sages
The problem with that idea is that once these recurring heroes get out there and start saving the Realms from this or that, there will be players that will feel threatened by them. "How can we save the Realms is THEY'RE saving the Realms already? What do the Realms need me for?" Maybe not at first, but continued exploits of any characters will see them pit against progressively more powerful foes and then the NPC super hero complex will start all over again... and be wiped away with another RSE + 100 year time jump to kill them off in time for 5th edition. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 23:18:05
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Edit: Every time I respond to one of Nerfed's posts, I have to double-check afterward to make sure I'm not responding to myself. Maybe I should change my avatar... 
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
And another thing just occurred to me. Perhaps our dislike of the changes in FR stems in part from our dislike of the turbulent changes occurring around the real world as well. We look to the FR novels as an escape to a place we're comfortable with. Where we can read new adventures about our favorite heroes and villains. But now, almost all of those characters have been killed off. So we've lost that old sense of reliability that people are craving, and made the realms so appealing to some of us. The remedy to this is obviously introduce some new, likable, RECURRING heroes and villains who give us hope for the franchise yet again. So get on it Sages
The problem with that idea is that once these recurring heroes get out there and start saving the Realms from this or that, there will be players that will feel threatened by them. "How can we save the Realms is THEY'RE saving the Realms already? What do the Realms need me for?" Maybe not at first, but continued exploits of any characters will see them pit against progressively more powerful foes and then the NPC super hero complex will start all over again... and be wiped away with another RSE + 100 year time jump to kill them off in time for 5th edition.
Yeah... but you're missing the real source of the problem, which is munchkin DMs who think that they need to use every uber-powerful NPC in the books, whether good or not, and because there are (or were) so many good-aligned ones, they steal the show. We need DMs to read the part of the FRCS/FRCG/DM's Cyclopedia/Running the Realms/etc. where it specifically says (in various phrasings) just because something is in these books doesn't mean it has to appear in your game. It's your world. DMs who run the Realms "as is" right out of the book (at least prior to 4E) are going to create serious goodness envy in a good aligned party, because these characters (Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters) are there to foil the big plots that the PCs aren't ready to tackle yet. Given the population of the Realms, they don't have enough time to police the entire world at a micro-management level, nor should they be expected to... that's why we have player characters. Personally, I think that Ed Greenwood's next novel should feature something big and bad enough that Elminster, Dove, Storm, and the Simbul together can't take it down (because you know such a thing exists somewhere), and Szass Tam allies with it. What happens? Well, all those other good guys that the 4E designers killed off would have saved the day... and as a result, Faerun becomes untenable as a setting for future stories, and we have to move to Anchorome or Katashaka or Osse. Of course, Wizbro would just refuse to publish it and that would be that. All I know for sure is, the latest RSE was a Realms-Shattering Event. It's broken, and I'm catching it in mid-fall for my own purposes, because we can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again.  Personally, by comparison, I love what Weis and Hickman did with Dragonplants, and I rate the Smellplague Realms somewhere far below Fifth Age Krynn... hrm... maybe I'll dust off my 3E Dragginglance book... nah. I have a lot of alternate recent history to work out for the Realms, and I'm having fun with that. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Oct 2008 23:29:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 23:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
And another thing just occurred to me. Perhaps our dislike of the changes in FR stems in part from our dislike of the turbulent changes occurring around the real world as well. We look to the FR novels as an escape to a place we're comfortable with. Where we can read new adventures about our favorite heroes and villains. But now, almost all of those characters have been killed off. So we've lost that old sense of reliability that people are craving, and made the realms so appealing to some of us. The remedy to this is obviously introduce some new, likable, RECURRING heroes and villains who give us hope for the franchise yet again. So get on it Sages
The problem with that idea is that once these recurring heroes get out there and start saving the Realms from this or that, there will be players that will feel threatened by them. "How can we save the Realms is THEY'RE saving the Realms already? What do the Realms need me for?" Maybe not at first, but continued exploits of any characters will see them pit against progressively more powerful foes and then the NPC super hero complex will start all over again... and be wiped away with another RSE + 100 year time jump to kill them off in time for 5th edition.
Yeah... but you're missing the real source of the problem, which is munchkin DMs who think that they need to use every uber-powerful NPC in the books, whether good or not, and because there are (or were) so many good-aligned ones, they steal the show. We need DMs to read the part of the FRCS/FRCG/DM's Cyclopedia/Running the Realms/etc. where it specifically says (in various phrasings) just because something is in these books doesn't mean it has to appear in your game. It's your world. DMs who run the Realms "as is" right out of the book (at least prior to 4E) are going to create serious goodness envy in a good aligned party, because these characters (Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters) are there to foil the big plots that the PCs aren't ready to tackle yet. Given the population of the Realms, they don't have enough time to police the entire world at a micro-management level, nor should they be expected to... that's why we have player characters. Personally, I think that Ed Greenwood's next novel should feature something big and bad enough that Elminster, Dove, Storm, and the Simbul together can't take it down (because you know such a thing exists somewhere), and Szass Tam allies with it. What happens? Well, all those other good guys that the 4E designers killed off would have saved the day... and as a result, Faerun becomes untenable as a setting for future stories, and we have to move to Anchorome or Katashaka or Osse. Of course, Wizbro would just refuse to publish it and that would be that. All I know for sure is, the latest RSE was a Realms-Shattering Event. It's broken, and I'm catching it in mid-fall for my own purposes, because we can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Personally, by comparison, I love what Weis and Hickman did with Dragonplants, and I rate the Smellplague Realms somewhere far below Fifth Age Krynn... hrm... maybe I'll dust off my 3E Dragginglance book... nah. I have a lot of alternate recent history to work out for the Realms, and I'm having fun with that.
Indeed. And I'd also like to note that there have been a lot of recurring heroes who haven't gotten in the way of anyone else saving the Realms, too. Has Cale saved the Realms? Has Drizzt? Has Arilyn? Has Alias? As has been pointed out, more than once, there are way too many people, and way too many plots in the Realms for a dozen people to be on top of everything. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 03:08:02
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| I appear to have stirred up a hornets nest. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 04:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
And another thing just occurred to me. Perhaps our dislike of the changes in FR stems in part from our dislike of the turbulent changes occurring around the real world as well. We look to the FR novels as an escape to a place we're comfortable with. Where we can read new adventures about our favorite heroes and villains. But now, almost all of those characters have been killed off. So we've lost that old sense of reliability that people are craving, and made the realms so appealing to some of us. The remedy to this is obviously introduce some new, likable, RECURRING heroes and villains who give us hope for the franchise yet again. So get on it Sages
The problem with that idea is that once these recurring heroes get out there and start saving the Realms from this or that, there will be players that will feel threatened by them. "How can we save the Realms is THEY'RE saving the Realms already? What do the Realms need me for?" Maybe not at first, but continued exploits of any characters will see them pit against progressively more powerful foes and then the NPC super hero complex will start all over again... and be wiped away with another RSE + 100 year time jump to kill them off in time for 5th edition.
Yeah... but you're missing the real source of the problem, which is munchkin DMs who think that they need to use every uber-powerful NPC in the books, whether good or not, and because there are (or were) so many good-aligned ones, they steal the show. We need DMs to read the part of the FRCS/FRCG/DM's Cyclopedia/Running the Realms/etc. where it specifically says (in various phrasings) just because something is in these books doesn't mean it has to appear in your game. It's your world. DMs who run the Realms "as is" right out of the book (at least prior to 4E) are going to create serious goodness envy in a good aligned party, because these characters (Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters) are there to foil the big plots that the PCs aren't ready to tackle yet. Given the population of the Realms, they don't have enough time to police the entire world at a micro-management level, nor should they be expected to... that's why we have player characters. Personally, I think that Ed Greenwood's next novel should feature something big and bad enough that Elminster, Dove, Storm, and the Simbul together can't take it down (because you know such a thing exists somewhere), and Szass Tam allies with it. What happens? Well, all those other good guys that the 4E designers killed off would have saved the day... and as a result, Faerun becomes untenable as a setting for future stories, and we have to move to Anchorome or Katashaka or Osse. Of course, Wizbro would just refuse to publish it and that would be that. All I know for sure is, the latest RSE was a Realms-Shattering Event. It's broken, and I'm catching it in mid-fall for my own purposes, because we can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Personally, by comparison, I love what Weis and Hickman did with Dragonplants, and I rate the Smellplague Realms somewhere far below Fifth Age Krynn... hrm... maybe I'll dust off my 3E Dragginglance book... nah. I have a lot of alternate recent history to work out for the Realms, and I'm having fun with that.
Indeed. And I'd also like to note that there have been a lot of recurring heroes who haven't gotten in the way of anyone else saving the Realms, too. Has Cale saved the Realms? Has Drizzt? Has Arilyn? Has Alias? As has been pointed out, more than once, there are way too many people, and way too many plots in the Realms for a dozen people to be on top of everything.
Oh, I agree with both of you, Jakk and Wooly. My statement was intended as a polite show of displeasure at the state of things and how they got that way. If I hadn't restrained myself, it would probably have come off something like this:
"That **** wouldn't work because a ****** bunch of ******* little ****** would complain their ****** characters aren't ******* doing **** because of the bull**** NPC super hero complex."
And that's not the kind of message I wanted to send...
...here. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Baragon Geddarm
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 04:29:48
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I think the only time I had ANY named/canon NPCs show up was in Waterdeep when the group saved the Paladinson from a drow attack (At least I let them think that as Khelben had been present as well. They just didn't do anything as the players had it well in hand [And probably would not have as NPC saves are no fun for players])
I had a small number of NPCs show up at the party thrown for the players to cause a little fun trouble. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 06:25:04
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As I stated in my description of my favorite character, the only time that any of the named NPCs showed up in the story was when we were a) pretty high level and b) all of Toril was threatened. Hell, by the end of the adventure, we had traveled to different planes, restarted a 'world clock' and discovered that everything happened because it was a bid for power (and freedom) by Levistus against Asmodeus. (I did mention we reached epic level near the end, right?)
Tell ya whut, nothin's scarier than Asmodeus savin' yur hide with a wink saying 'you owe me one'. My Arcane Trickster started taking levels of cleric (Selune) soon after. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
As Rin and I were talking about, there are some things that took place during the 3e era, that were in "preparation" for 4e. The death of Eilistraee, for example. Where do you draw the line? Keep some things in 1,374 DR, like the death of Khelben, but not others, like the reclamation of Myth Drannor by the Elven Crusade? Who decides, in an official capacity? And, eventually, the timeline would move forward, to 1,385 DR, if you keep the "classic" line going. That's when the Spellplague would have "hit". Now what?
I definitely agree that everyone has their own ideas about what the Realms should keep and what it shouldn't--I know I'd be happy if the Realms was reset to just before 3E just like Wooly suggested, but not everyone would be. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Heh, great image . . . but let's not give the gnomes the ideas. They're monsters now, after all--who knows what dastardly trickery they might get up to!
Heh. Well, technically everyone's a monster and always has been--for example, humans are in the new MM and I think they were in the 3E one as well, not sure about earlier editions. Perfectly fitting I guess.
quote:
I wonder how much of this isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think the game sourcebook doesn't do much for telling you about the optimism/depression of the state of the world.
A good point. When the sourcebooks talk about how the Spellplague brought about death, madness, refugees, new creepy monsters, etc., it's easy (for me anyway) to think that that's the new "tone" for the setting (ie. post-apocolyptic horror and/or decline). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 18:45:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
And another thing just occurred to me. Perhaps our dislike of the changes in FR stems in part from our dislike of the turbulent changes occurring around the real world as well. We look to the FR novels as an escape to a place we're comfortable with. Where we can read new adventures about our favorite heroes and villains.
I agree. The Realms have long been a place for me to escape to. There's no reason for me to "escape" to a place that makes me miserable. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 19:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
As Rin and I were talking about, there are some things that took place during the 3e era, that were in "preparation" for 4e. The death of Eilistraee, for example. Where do you draw the line? Keep some things in 1,374 DR, like the death of Khelben, but not others, like the reclamation of Myth Drannor by the Elven Crusade? Who decides, in an official capacity? And, eventually, the timeline would move forward, to 1,385 DR, if you keep the "classic" line going. That's when the Spellplague would have "hit". Now what?
I definitely agree that everyone has their own ideas about what the Realms should keep and what it shouldn't--I know I'd be happy if the Realms was reset to just before 3E just like Wooly suggested, but not everyone would be.
Truth. Some people would favor going all the way back to the Old Grey Box. I think of 2E as the "Golden Age" of Realmslore, so that's why I don't go back further. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Heh, great image . . . but let's not give the gnomes the ideas. They're monsters now, after all--who knows what dastardly trickery they might get up to!
Heh. Well, technically everyone's a monster and always has been--for example, humans are in the new MM and I think they were in the 3E one as well, not sure about earlier editions. Perfectly fitting I guess.
Oh sure--kill my joke with your inescapable logic!
quote:
When the sourcebooks talk about how the Spellplague brought about death, madness, refugees, new creepy monsters, etc., it's easy (for me anyway) to think that that's the new "tone" for the setting (ie. post-apocolyptic horror and/or decline).
Heck, I had all that in Depths of Madness, and that was 3e.
And on that very valid point you're raising, 'Lyrna, I think the period following the Spellplague was, indeed, pretty post-apocalyptic horror.
But that was a little less than a hundred years ago--we shouldn't necessarily assume the Spellplague-era tone applies to the modern Realms (at least all over).
To draw a parallel, that would be like saying, for instance, the apocalyptic World-War I era (where people thought modern civilization was destroying itself) embodies life in 2008.
Personally, I think 4e FR has just as much potential to show just as much range as previous iterations of the world--it just hasn't had the chance to do so yet. We've got, what, three novels out about the new Realms? And even those three show an incredible range.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:30:44
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The way I look at it, if you only reset back as far as the end of 3e, its still a fairly smooth continuity. Those who want to go as far back as 2e or even good old grey box 1e can skip over recent events and just use newly presented Realmslore to build on since it usually seems so timeless. Then one could insert "recent" old lore and 1e and 2e players could implement it as current events while still allowing 3e stuff to be built on to the tail end of things for people still progressing through the 1370s+... and keep everything fairly system neutral by skipping the crunch and going 100% fluff. Where crunch is required to explain something not previously covered in the rules, it could be fleshed out in web enhancements as needed.
The only thing I'm up in the air on is the cosmology. I never liked the switch to the great tree thing since I got so attached to the great wheel as presented and thoroughly developed in earlier editions. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 20:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Oh sure--kill my joke with your inescapable logic!
Couldn't help myself.
quote:
And on that very valid point you're raising, 'Lyrna, I think the period following the Spellplague was, indeed, pretty post-apocalyptic horror.
But that was a little less than a hundred years ago--we shouldn't necessarily assume the Spellplague-era tone applies to the modern Realms (at least all over).
I completely agree with you--that's how it should be. However, I would like to point out that when I pore through much of the new lore that's out right now (not all of it, but a lot of it), I often come across "The Spellplague caused such-and-such" or some variation of that. Heck, even Bruce Cordell publically admitted (in the recent Dragon article, the one with him and Phil Athans) that he didn't like how the FRCG kept saying "Spellplague, Spellplague, Spellplague". So, even though the event in question is 100 years old in the setting, it's still all over the place in the 4E material. And of course, there's no escaping the fact that outside the setting, the Spellplague came upon us (the players/readers/fans) very recently--only a little over a year ago.
So, I hope that all explains why I think the Spellplague is still very "fresh" even though it technically happened about 100 years ago. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 20:50:50 |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:04:27
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| Spellplague. It's sort of like Hasbro's equivalent of the Bush administrations "9/11" explanation for everything they did for the last 7 years. lol |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:34:32
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Okay, let's make sure that's as far as the political commentary goes. I know it was meant as a joke, but it really isn't appropriate for a discussion here at Candlekeep.
Just a friendly Mod reminder. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Oct 2008 00:36:06 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:41:52
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I know this seems kind of like a departure from the OP, but we're talking about getting a "feel" (in this case, by the OP, "hopelessness") for the setting based on how much info we have available, which I'm contending isn't enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
So, I hope that all explains why I think the Spellplague is still very "fresh" even though it technically happened about 100 years ago.
Indeed, that makes sense.
And in a very real sense, the sourcebooks that have come out have *had* to talk a lot about the Spellplague, because it's the source of many fundamental changes to how things work in the setting. "Why isn't such-and-such here, and such-and-such is in its place?" "Well, when the spellplague came through . . ."
But like I established earlier in my posts, the sourcebooks that have been released don't nearly have the depths of previous editions . . . mostly because there's so little. With the current business model, for better or worse, WotC has gone extremely general with the Realms, throwing out a lot of blanks to be filled in by DMs.
I think the novels, as they emerge, will start to fill in the missing flavor, like in previous editions. For instance, I don't think you can nearly get a universal sense of the Realms in 1-3e without the novels, so why should 4e be any different?
Judging the 4e Realms based on the three books is like judging 3e based only upon the FRCS, the PGtF, and Mysteries of the Moonsea (for a hard-cover adventure). Sure, you'll get a sense of how to play in the Realms, but there's so much more out there for 3e. That sort of stuff is coming for 4e, but it hasn't all appeared YET. It'll be in the novels and on DDI, but it takes time.
It's just not possible for one (or even three) sourcebooks to capture all there is to know . . . only provide the page for you to write on with your own campaigns and/or fill in with what the novels inspire you to dream up.
So I have no doubt that the setting can seem bleak right now, based on what we have. All I'm saying is that that will change.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 01:11:51
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| Thanks Erik, that sounds great. |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 05:19:22
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| Well, I still hold out hopes for the realms in the coming novels. If the franchise can weather the coming books that depict the deaths of many beloved characters, and rebuild that sense of wonder about the realms future, then I have no doubt it will endure... at least until 5e |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:18:11
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| If the FRCS was the only thing published for FR3.0, it would have still been a pretty good update. Just compare FRCS3.0 to FRCS4E back to back. Mr de Bie, I greatly enjoy your stories. Like Ed, you're being a good team player here. I don't think much about your team, though. |
Edited by - RodOdom on 16 Oct 2008 16:18:36 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Indeed, that makes sense.
I'm glad.
quote:
And in a very real sense, the sourcebooks that have come out have *had* to talk a lot about the Spellplague, because it's the source of many fundamental changes to how things work in the setting. "Why isn't such-and-such here, and such-and-such is in its place?" "Well, when the spellplague came through . . ."
But like I established earlier in my posts, the sourcebooks that have been released don't nearly have the depths of previous editions . . . mostly because there's so little. With the current business model, for better or worse, WotC has gone extremely general with the Realms, throwing out a lot of blanks to be filled in by DMs.
Right, it is what it is, for better for worse. But, see below...
quote:
I think the novels, as they emerge, will start to fill in the missing flavor, like in previous editions. For instance, I don't think you can nearly get a universal sense of the Realms in 1-3e without the novels, so why should 4e be any different?
It might not be any different. However, whether it's "fair" or not, the 4E Realms has left a bad impression on me. In addition to that, I'm a firm believer in not only having an opinion, but the right to change my opinion as I go along. What I mean here is, I could wait for years and years for the 4E Realms to fill up with lore that might possibly be satisfactory to me. I could defer my opinion indefinitely, but I don't think doing that would be true to myself, and I still know that I could always change my mind at a later date. Also, I think the most important thing here is that while I love the Realms, it is ultimately a fictional setting (that is, not one of "the big things in life"), and on top of that, it's not the only hobby that I have. One only has so much time in life, and I don't see the point in spending too much energy on something that brings in little if any joy for me. It's not only easier for me but more honest for me to simply state that, based on what's out for the 4E Realms right now, it is overall not for me, even if there are some bits and pieces of it that are well-done and/or inspiring. And if I choose give up on the official setting thanks to that, that doesn't take anything away from anyone else.
I have always contended that it's possible that at some point in the future, for some reason, I might decide I like the 4E Realms. However, I am also a pragmatic person at heart, and I'm more interested what is likely than what is merely possible. I have taken a look at the material (even if I might not have read every single word), and I know myself well enough to decide that I probably will never grow to love or even like the 4E Realms. Once again, it's entirely possible that overall I have not and will not give the setting a "fair chance". However, it is what it is, and I'm not trying to get people to NOT enjoy the setting, either.
Once again I hope that makes sense and explains where I'm coming from.
PS: And by the way, I'm still probably going to read all the Ed Greenwood Presents: Waterdeep novels, because I've heard good things about them. It's not like I'm "walking away" from the Realms entirely, I've just decided that the setting has gone in a direction that I dislike and I'm not going to try to bring myself to like it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Oct 2008 16:31:51 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 17:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
If the FRCS was the only thing published for FR3.0, it would have still been a pretty good update. Just compare FRCS3.0 to FRCS4E back to back.
-Right, I was just about to bring this up. Should we really have to wait for X amount of novels to be published for us to get a better feel for the new Forgotten Realms? Because, campaign setting books (As in the FRCS, the ECS, and so on) are supposed to do that, to begin with- that is, provide a broad-yet-specific-enough overview of the setting to get the general feel for what it is like. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 17:40:47
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I'd like to comment on that. With all the respect for Mr. de Bie, i don't agree with that. What gave the feeling of the realms to me was the gray box, the FR series of source books, the Volo's guides, the religion books, the adventure modules of the 1 and 2e era. That is to me when the the world shaped in my mind.
Maybe the novels of the 3e era shaped the realms we have now with the massive RSE's we saw thrown at the setting but in the begining, it was a gaming world and not a novel world. The Harper series for exemple was great because it gave us small scale stories that zoomed on characters and that helped get a micro view of the world but it didn't shaped the feeling, it emphasized it.
That is just a little point i wanted to make because people tend to forget how the realms were at the begining. It was a joy to read from the gray box on not only because of the content, but also because of the way it was writen. There was a sense of wonder emanating from the book. Now it's just stats and powers and little snipets of phrases without feeling. Somehow along the route, we lost the fantasy feeling of a fantasy setting, the sense of wonder. I always believed that roleplaying and the gaming worlds we create exists or were invented to help us immerse in a fantasy state of mind. The way the new rules are delivered in the new setting doesn't do that for me. It's just not writen that way.
I know i'm not the kid a was when i discovered FR but in my heart, i'm still that kid and i still want to feel transported into another world. I don't want to be impressed by foating pieces of earth and lunar landscapes or spellcrazed events. I just want good prose, feelings and wonder. I want npcs with depth and not questgivers, i want to understand the world, not just stats.
I guess i want to feel like a kid again when i read fantasy :)
I hope my english is understandable.
Pat
quote:
I think the novels, as they emerge, will start to fill in the missing flavor, like in previous editions. For instance, I don't think you can nearly get a universal sense of the Realms in 1-3e without the novels, so why should 4e be any different?
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Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 18:02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
I appear to have stirred up a hornets nest.
More like monstrous fiendish dire hornets ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The loss of the cautious optimism feeling in 4e
