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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 21:46:04
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Am I the only one to notice this? In 3e there was a sense of hope in parts of the realms that somehow things might turn out alright. Now in 4e there's this sense of ennui. Sort of a grudging acceptance that everything is just going to rot to death under the weight of it's own apathy. Sort of like the entire realm is stuck in a Paris night club in the 50's, smoking a gauloise, listening to sad jazz and reminiscing about its youth.
I liked that sense of hopefulness in 3e. It made me enjoy the campaign setting more than any other D&D world. Now, it feels like the realm is permanently stuck in late November before the snow falls and there's no leaves or colors anywhere.
Am I the only one to notice this, or am I reading too much into it?
Or if you agree with me, what do you feel the solution to this would be?
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"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
Edited by - Kamuraki on 13 Oct 2008 21:47:27
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 22:02:13
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As Charlie Brown once said to Lucy,
THAT'S IT!!
Now that I've diagnosed the problem, we can go about correcting it.
By the way, this is VERY prevalent in RAS's The Pirate King, now that I think about it. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 22:45:07
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| I have to agree... but how do you correct such a problem when the source of the problem (Wizbro) is beyond our reach? There isn't really a guaranteed solution, because if 4E FR does well, Wizbro will take it as an endorsement of their butchery, and if it doesn't, they're more likely to just ditch it rather than sell it to a company who cares. Why sell something with as much potential as FR when you can sit on it until its fans get desperate enough to say "OKAY! We'll take whatever tripe you give us, as long as it says 'Forgotten Realms' on the cover." (For me, btw, that's never going to happen. I have loads of old source material and the community here to keep me inspired and advancing my own timeline until something changes for the better on the business side of things.) |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 23:02:51
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Maybe we need authors to introduce some new heroes who are, for lack of a better word, FUN! Characters who don't take the whole mess too seriously. I'm working on one at the moment, but I've no idea how to submit even a short story to WotC.
I say I'm working on one, but it's slow going with my own machinima series, voice acting projects, and writing projects for podcasts and machinima scripts, so it's hard to find time for it. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 23:13:53
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| Hell, I don't care if Hasbro/WotC completely and utterly ditches the Realms after 4e. If they do, then the IP reverts to Ed as per the original agreement and he can fix everything. The thing that worries me is that they will keep putting out the minimum number of novels/game accessories to keep the IP. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 23:34:47
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Well, that might have something to do with the fact that aside from sporadic DDI articles, the new 4E Realms will have no 'official', ongoing support.
When I told my FLGS owner that there were going to be 3 FR products total in 4E, his response was: "Well, all the work I need to do to get the FRCG into shape to actually DM there I can devote to a homebrew and build and tailor my own world".
I know that personally I am saddened that I'll never get the opportunity to purchase another FR gaming product from WotC again.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 02:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Hell, I don't care if Hasbro/WotC completely and utterly ditches the Realms after 4e. If they do, then the IP reverts to Ed as per the original agreement and he can fix everything. The thing that worries me is that they will keep putting out the minimum number of novels/game accessories to keep the IP.
-People always say this, and it makes me wince. Think about what you say. By the rights leaving WotC, all of those things that exist in the Forgotten Realms, that have become part of the lore and history of it, that are still owned by WotC will not be able to be used. The Planes, for example? We're used to the Great Wheel/Great Tree. WotC has the rights to those specific things/people/places that we know of the planes. Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms would not be able to utilize them. Sure, he'd use his own planar structure, and no knock against him, but those aren't the planes that we necessarily know, and have come to like/dislike/whatever. Things like this, but broadened and extended, would happen to the setting left and right. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 02:55:45
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| Dagnirion: you have nothing to fear! If Paizo figured out a way around the Great Wheel, I have the utmost confidence that Ed, who freakin' invented the NINE HELLS, would find a way around it too! nay... he will BULLDOZE HIS WAY THROUGH IT, and the resulting landscaping will be breathtaking! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 03:33:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Dagnirion: you have nothing to fear! If Paizo figured out a way around the Great Wheel, I have the utmost confidence that Ed, who freakin' invented the NINE HELLS, would find a way around it too! nay... he will BULLDOZE HIS WAY THROUGH IT, and the resulting landscaping will be breathtaking!
-Regardless, it's still not the same thing we're accustomed to. Like I said in my original post, I don't think that he'd create anything crappy, because he's a good designer, but what he'd create isn't what we're accustomed to, and what we've had for, well, since the beginning. The Trio Nefarious, suddenly, they're not Nycaloths, they're...Tholacyns!
-That kind of stuff. It doesn't make things inherently bad, but, it makes so much previous stuff invalidated that, you wonder, what's the point?
-I was talking to Rin about this today, when we were having lunch. In my opinion, what the designers did to the setting "jumped the shark". But, come 5e, if the designers reversed everything that was done, and said, "Oh, it was all a dream!", the damage is still done. What do you do, ignore everything that happened? Strike it from the canon, and it actually never happened? It's a catch 22.
-I realize that last part isn't 100% relevant, but the beginning is, so... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 06:26:24
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| Regardless, I happen to agree with Hawkins here... if they ditch it and the Realms revert to Ed, this would be the best things that have happened to the Realms since mid 2007. I don't even care if Ed says "We're back in 1200 DR, the Time of Troubles never happened, etc." But this is all irrelevant at this stage. I'm not an IP expert, but I'm not entirely sure Ed wouldn't have his choice as to what he gets to keep or not. If you use that logic for WotC, who owns the IP now, wouldn't you say Ed would then have complete ownwership of all things done past and present that bears the FR trademark? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 06:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I was talking to Rin about this today, when we were having lunch. In my opinion, what the designers did to the setting "jumped the shark". But, come 5e, if the designers reversed everything that was done, and said, "Oh, it was all a dream!", the damage is still done. What do you do, ignore everything that happened? Strike it from the canon, and it actually never happened? It's a catch 22.
What about my idea? Resetting the Realms back to an earlier point (for me, right after after Cloak & Dagger), and starting again from there. Meanwhile, the Realms of 4E is continued as its own alternate setting. Many people think of it as a new setting, anyway, and in some ways, it is. So why not make it official? Spin the 4E Realms off as the Shattered Realms (or something similar), and relaunch the Forgotten Realms at an earlier point, before all the fecal matter impacted the ventilation device. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 07:47:39
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Wooly, I like your thinking. Although, for the most part, I'm okay with what happened in 3.x. The only major changes from 3E canon I've made in my campaign are at the beginning and the end of 3.x chronology. First, Tanalasta was resurrected. She and her sister respected their father's wishes and did not try to bring him back, and Tanalasta takes the regency while Alusair assumes command of the military. Second, Khelben tried to sacrifice himself to create/restore Rhymanthiin (sp?), but Corellon and Mystra refused his sacrifice, and contributed tiny fragments of their own divine essences to complete the spell. Third, Halaster does not die, and there is no Smellplague. I like the odor-free Realms myself. 
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, that might have something to do with the fact that aside from sporadic DDI articles, the new 4E Realms will have no 'official', ongoing support.
When I told my FLGS owner that there were going to be 3 FR products total in 4E, his response was: "Well, all the work I need to do to get the FRCG into shape to actually DM there I can devote to a homebrew and build and tailor my own world".
I know that personally I am saddened that I'll never get the opportunity to purchase another FR gaming product from WotC again.
-- George Krashos
To return this thread closer to topic: There is no optimism among many of us for the viability and future of the setting, either, so it's rather appropriate. As far as Krash's comments above, I would argue that a DM's time is far better spent tailoring the pre-4E Realms to his own personal preferences for gaming with pre-4E rules, because at least you have the past source material to draw on... and yes, I know that some people thought that was a problem with the setting. I always found that using cookie cutters on cardboard didn't produce anything believable. My ruleset of choice is either 3.5 or Pathfinder, depending on how well my house rules will work with the changes we've seen so far in Pathfinder. So far, it looks good with the playtesting my group has done.
Wooly: The Realms have jumped the shark, largely because Wizbro wouldn't listen to Ed in the first place. I intend to take Ed's words to heart for my own Realms, and Anchorome, Katashaka, and Osse are next on my project list. I'd love to know what (if anything) exists in the way of available pre-4E lore for these lands. Maztica is still getting blown up, but I'll probably do it much less spectacularly and more epidemiologically than world-collision-ish. I can see employing a time-jump, but probably more like 10 or maybe 20 years, nothing like a full century.
Anyway, it's midnight where I am, and I need some sleep.  Who knows? Maybe shark-jumping is the current trendy nautical sport in the Pacific Northwest... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Oct 2008 08:10:06 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 08:05:14
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| To avoid the Eberrealms I would set the reset-point just before the events of the Tyr/Helm soap opera, about 1382/83. In that way we can keep the established lore of 3e and are free to go on without the burden of the tainted lore of 4e. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 08:12:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
To avoid the Eberrealms I would set the reset-point just before the events of the Tyr/Helm soap opera, about 1382/83. In that way we can keep the established lore of 3e and are free to go on without the burden of the tainted lore of 4e.
I like that. There are *some* events of 1384 that I would continue as scheduled, such as the Crusade reclaiming Myth Drannor... but the refounded realm would be Cormanthyr, blast it! Myth Drannor is the name of the city!  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 08:35:33
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I feel...honestly...way behind. There's nothing really to grab onto in the Realms anymore, so much has been flushed away. Who are the heroes? The villains? Who do I still care about?
I've read the material, but nothing jumps out. I miss Todd Lockwood's work on every page, the thickness of the work, the character depth.
I guess I just don't see why they couldn't have just made this "Shattered Realms" an optional setting, and given us an update maybe ten years along the timeline. Change things up, don't obliterate.
Nothing was broken, and they tried to fix everything. I used to snap up every text on the realms I could. Now...it's tough to fork over a dime for a world that seems cold and unfamiliar.
So...my "ennui" finds its solace in the novels and 3.5. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 10:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, that might have something to do with the fact that aside from sporadic DDI articles, the new 4E Realms will have no 'official', ongoing support.
When I told my FLGS owner that there were going to be 3 FR products total in 4E, his response was: "Well, all the work I need to do to get the FRCG into shape to actually DM there I can devote to a homebrew and build and tailor my own world".
I know that personally I am saddened that I'll never get the opportunity to purchase another FR gaming product from WotC again.
-- George Krashos
First, as the saying goes, Never say never! Who knows what they will say in a year's time.
Second, as before, I usually do not need new books or new rules, for that matter, to delve into the Realms. Dunno, but at a rough guess, I have about 30 3,xE core and FR books, and many more FR - AD&D stuff. There simply will never be a shortage of information should I require it.
Third ... there is opportunity here. I am not sure how WotC or Hasbro will handle that issue, but the pre-Spellplague Realms are there for the taking. At a rough guess, 80% of the Realms history is a white sheet (unless you sneak into Ed's secret chambers) and I wonder whether we over here at Candlekeep cannot get together and fill in those blank spaces. For example, Arcane Age adventures aside, nigh everything before 1200 DR is left untouched by the sourcebooks - bar a few infos here and there. If we decide - on a non-profit basis - to flesh these areas out, possibly with the help of the archwizard himself, there is no need to BUY more FR books.  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 13:38:53
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I wanted to add my input here because I honestly feel like an outsider; but don't worry, not in a bad way! I am actually inspired and motivated because there is a community like Candlekeep and I am upset I did not become more active earlier on.
You see, the Forgotten Realms we all have come to love over these years will never truely die because of communities like this. Likewise, without such a loyal and vocal community, who knows what kind of crap they would get away with? If you don't think they were feeling the heat, you should have spoken to some of them right before the Gencon presentation. I've seen people in real-world combat not look as worries! :p
Anyways, my point is that each of you in some way is influencing what the future of FR will be. I think it is this kind of dynamic that makes the community unique and one that won't go away easily. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
To avoid the Eberrealms I would set the reset-point just before the events of the Tyr/Helm soap opera, about 1382/83. In that way we can keep the established lore of 3e and are free to go on without the burden of the tainted lore of 4e.
I like that. There are *some* events of 1384 that I would continue as scheduled, such as the Crusade reclaiming Myth Drannor... but the refounded realm would be Cormanthyr, blast it! Myth Drannor is the name of the city!
I pick the reset point as being right before 3E for a couple of reasons. One is that I liked a couple of the plot threads from Cloak & Dagger that were unceremoniously brushed to the side. Another reason is that while there are 3E events I liked, there are others I didn't like and/or that I thought were pointless. Starting over right before 3E started allows for the opportunity to re-do some events (bringing back Shade without making everyone look like idiots), repeat some events (the elven Crusade), and to wipe other events out of existence (the absolutely pointless War of the Spider Queen, for example). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Oct 2008 14:55:50 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 15:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
Am I the only one to notice this, or am I reading too much into it?
No, you aren't the only one to notice this--I too have noticed a distinct lack of cheer in the most of the new Realms products. One can argue about how cheerlessness is more realistic and whatnot (though I'm not sure if I'd even agree with that), but IMO the bottomline is that the Realms is supposed to be an "optimistic" type of setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 15:35:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
By the way, this is VERY prevalent in RAS's The Pirate King, now that I think about it.
Haven't read that novel at this time (and at the moment, I don't even feel a desire to read it), but I've read all the other Drizzt novels, and I have to say the later books do tend to take themselves way too seriously, and are also "preachier" than I think they should be.
It's hard for me to believe (having complained about the earlier novels being overly simplistic), but I kind of miss the time when the Drizzt novels weren't so "self-conscious" and didn't endeavor to be much more than fun reads. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Oct 2008 15:38:31 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 15:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, that might have something to do with the fact that aside from sporadic DDI articles, the new 4E Realms will have no 'official', ongoing support.
When I told my FLGS owner that there were going to be 3 FR products total in 4E, his response was: "Well, all the work I need to do to get the FRCG into shape to actually DM there I can devote to a homebrew and build and tailor my own world".
I know that personally I am saddened that I'll never get the opportunity to purchase another FR gaming product from WotC again.
-- George Krashos
Hey, it's not impossible for WotC to put out more sourcebooks, they just don't have any more planned at this time. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 15:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
Am I the only one to notice this, or am I reading too much into it?
No, you aren't the only one to notice this--I too have noticed a distinct lack of cheer in the most of the new Realms products. One can argue about how cheerlessness is more realistic and whatnot (though I'm not sure if I'd even agree with that), but IMO the bottomline is that the Realms is supposed to be an "optimistic" type of setting.
Amen to that. I get all the doom and gloom I need from Warhammer 40.000 (now there is a setting that could use some prozac). |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 16:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
Am I the only one to notice this, or am I reading too much into it?
No, you aren't the only one to notice this--I too have noticed a distinct lack of cheer in the most of the new Realms products. One can argue about how cheerlessness is more realistic and whatnot (though I'm not sure if I'd even agree with that), but IMO the bottomline is that the Realms is supposed to be an "optimistic" type of setting.
Amen to that. I get all the doom and gloom I need from Warhammer 40.000 (now there is a setting that could use some prozac).
Been to Eberron recently? Don't get me wrong, I like the steam-punk feel of Eberron, but it definitely is a gloomy place. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
Am I the only one to notice this, or am I reading too much into it?
No, you aren't the only one to notice this--I too have noticed a distinct lack of cheer in the most of the new Realms products. One can argue about how cheerlessness is more realistic and whatnot (though I'm not sure if I'd even agree with that), but IMO the bottomline is that the Realms is supposed to be an "optimistic" type of setting.
Amen to that. I get all the doom and gloom I need from Warhammer 40.000 (now there is a setting that could use some prozac).
Been to Eberron recently? Don't get me wrong, I like the steam-punk feel of Eberron, but it definitely is a gloomy place.
Trust me, when it comes to gloom, 40k takes the prize without even noticing the other contestants. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-People always say this, and it makes me wince. Think about what you say. By the rights leaving WotC, all of those things that exist in the Forgotten Realms, that have become part of the lore and history of it, that are still owned by WotC will not be able to be used. The Planes, for example? We're used to the Great Wheel/Great Tree. WotC has the rights to those specific things/people/places that we know of the planes. Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms would not be able to utilize them. Sure, he'd use his own planar structure, and no knock against him, but those aren't the planes that we necessarily know, and have come to like/dislike/whatever. Things like this, but broadened and extended, would happen to the setting left and right.
In addition to what the others have said above, I would rather see Ed re-create the realms closer to what he originally envisioned than what WotC has done to it currently. It no longer feels like the Realms to me. There are some Realmsian labels attached to it to try and make me feel like it is the Realms, but it is not (IMO). Whatever Ed did with the Realms, it would still feel like the Realms, of this I am sure. I have no faith whatsoever in WotC's ability to do this anymore. Especially since I am primarily a novel reader and the planar structure is not dealt with too extensively in the novels, and I know that Ed would try to keep as much of the novels relevant as he could. Because he cares about us, the fans, and not the dollar signs we might represent. Not that I do not think that he would like the dollar signs (everyone likes to get paid for their hard work), but that is not his primary motivation. Otherwise he would not give us so much Realmslore for free here at the 'Keep. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 14 Oct 2008 17:28:59 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:29:47
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Not to insert myself in the griping about the 4e plan forward, but . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
First, Tanalasta was resurrected.
I'm curious as to how do you get around Cormyrean law on this point (namely, that resurrecting a noble is illegal and tantamount to treason for the whole family)?
I mean, it's not like your campaign has to have all the same laws--I'm just curious if an exception was made, or there was some subterfuge, etc. Like for instance, Filfaeril had Tanalasta brought back without Alusair/Caladnei/Cormyr's knowledge (or replaced with a doppelganger), and put it about that the rumors of her death were greatly exaggerated . . . leaving openings for some big intrigue.
And to turn briefly *on* to the OP:
Well, I certainly am not without hope, and I intend to keep writing as though hope exists. A little more elusive, yes, but still definitely there.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
If you use that logic for WotC, who owns the IP now, wouldn't you say Ed would then have complete ownwership of all things done past and present that bears the FR trademark?
-He'd only get the license to the Forgotten Realms. Things that fall out of that purview, that WotC owns (specific places/names/classes/feats/and all of those kinds of things, whatever), he'd have to get permission to use. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What about my idea? Resetting the Realms back to an earlier point (for me, right after after Cloak & Dagger), and starting again from there. Meanwhile, the Realms of 4E is continued as its own alternate setting. Many people think of it as a new setting, anyway, and in some ways, it is. So why not make it official? Spin the 4E Realms off as the Shattered Realms (or something similar), and relaunch the Forgotten Realms at an earlier point, before all the fecal matter impacted the ventilation device.
-That's only a temporary, quick band-aid solution, I think. As Rin and I were talking about, there are some things that took place during the 3e era, that were in "preparation" for 4e. The death of Eilistraee, for example. Where do you draw the line? Keep some things in 1,374 DR, like the death of Khelben, but not others, like the reclamation of Myth Drannor by the Elven Crusade? Who decides, in an official capacity? And, eventually, the timeline would move forward, to 1,385 DR, if you keep the "classic" line going. That's when the Spellplague would have "hit". Now what? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
In addition to what the others have said above, I would rather see Ed re-create the realms closer to what he originally envisioned than what WotC has done to it currently. It no longer feels like the Realms to me. There are some Realmsian labels attached to it to try and make me feel like it is the Realms, but it is not (IMO). Whatever Ed did with the Realms, it would still feel like the Realms, of this I am sure. I have no faith whatsoever in WotC's ability to do this anymore. Especially since I am primarily a novel reader and the planar structure is not dealt with too extensively in the novels, and I know that Ed would try to keep as much of the novels relevant as he could. Because he cares about us, the fans, and not the dollar signs we might represent. Not that I do not think that he would like the dollar signs (everyone likes to get paid for their hard work), but that is not his primary motivation. Otherwise he would not give us so much Realmslore for free here at the 'Keep.
-I don't buy into this. Ed Greenwood is a nice guy and all, but do I like his vision of the Forgotten Realms, before he sold it to TSR, and all of the development began and such? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know what it is. What it isn't, though, is the Forgotten Realms that I like. That is, it isn't going to be the Forgotten Realms that we have all bought into. I know, offhand, that he originally had different plans for Thay. So, Thay will be different. There won't be a Kara-Tur, or Bloodstone Lands, or Moonshae Islands. The Forgotten Realms that I like have a Thay that has specific characteristics, a Kara-Tur, Bloodstone Lands, Moonshae Islands, and so on.
-Honestly, what's the difference between this, and the WotC designers changing things with the Spellplague? In both cases, we get a product that is mostly resembling, but not what we are all used to, and what we all know we like. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 14 Oct 2008 17:41:17 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 18:36:50
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| While it would be interesting to see Ed's original vision of the Realms, I wouldn't be interested in seeing everything we got since TSR bought the setting from him thrown out. I mean, I like the Realms as they are pre-$ellplague... even Maztica. If Ed were to just back up to before 4th edition and pick up from there with new material that doesn't get rid of anything old, I'd love it and would be willing to support it forever and offer to have his abomination of the natural order love child to boot. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 18:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What about my idea? Resetting the Realms back to an earlier point (for me, right after after Cloak & Dagger), and starting again from there. Meanwhile, the Realms of 4E is continued as its own alternate setting. Many people think of it as a new setting, anyway, and in some ways, it is. So why not make it official? Spin the 4E Realms off as the Shattered Realms (or something similar), and relaunch the Forgotten Realms at an earlier point, before all the fecal matter impacted the ventilation device.
-That's only a temporary, quick band-aid solution, I think. As Rin and I were talking about, there are some things that took place during the 3e era, that were in "preparation" for 4e. The death of Eilistraee, for example. Where do you draw the line? Keep some things in 1,374 DR, like the death of Khelben, but not others, like the reclamation of Myth Drannor by the Elven Crusade? Who decides, in an official capacity? And, eventually, the timeline would move forward, to 1,385 DR, if you keep the "classic" line going. That's when the Spellplague would have "hit". Now what?
Well, as I've mentioned elsewhere, part of the reason I'd reset to right after Cloak & Dagger is to continue forward, from that point, adapting/changing/ignoring the 3E events as necessary.
First we'd undo some of the FRCS retcons, and/or actually offer explanations for some changes (the Thunder Blessing would be an excellent way to explain why the previously non-magical dwarves suddenly had arcane magic). Also, some plotlines from 2E wouldn't be brushed aside or ignored, like the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars.
Some 3E events would still happen, but with changes. I liked the idea of Shade, but I thought the execution of bringing them back was horrible. Not only did they come across as way too powerful and capable, but many established Realms NPCs came across as idiots during that trilogy. So I'd still have them come back, but they'd not be as strong or powerful.
Some 3E events would happen again, pretty much as before. The elven Crusade or Dragon Rage are both fine, as is.
And then there are events that would be utterly kicked aside. I found the War of the Spider Queen to be utterly pointless, so I'd drop that and everything spun from it.
And then, after all that? Then let the Realms progress as they always had before -- a bunch of smaller things happening in a bunch of places, with a few big events happening here and there. Everything past the mid-point of 1375 would be new, and would not involve divine soap operas, impossible divine murders, and illogical cataclysms. There was still an incredible amount of potential in the Realms, and my hypothetical approach would acknowledge that and continue to explore that potential. Blowing up the setting would not be an option.
Meanwhile, in the Shattered Realms, everything would be left exactly as it was. Yeah, it does get a bit wiggy with the alternate worlds thing, but I'd rather have alternate worlds that coexist, rather than one world turning into another and becoming unrecognizable. |
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The loss of the cautious optimism feeling in 4e
