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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 02:00:52
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Heh. He's SUPPOSED to be tiresome. 
What's ironic is that Ed never wanted to write about Elminster OR the Seven as anything more than offstage, referred-to-by-others characters, but the publishers always want him to make them the main characters in his novels. Just as Bob Salvatore finds it very hard to get away from the constant urgings to write more about Drizzt. "Write another surefire tale about your iconic character" has been the refrain for literally decades now.
I'm sure if Ed never wrote another word about any of the Chosen, he'd be more than happy. He has SO many neglected characters to tell the stories of, dating back to before TSR ever approached him to make the Realms into a game setting.
As far as the Knights trilogy (and I fear the 4e timeshift will prevent Ed doing what he wanted to do: write a lot more Knights books), there are some things I feel I should tell Orn. Such as:
* The books have way too many main characters, but Ed's stuck with that, because he's covering Realms "history." Believe me, he simplified events drastically - - but he can't make core members of the Knights "go away" to make a simpler, tighter story.
* Ed's whole point, in these early books, is to show just how bumbling and powerless novice adventurers are. Being a hero is being scared ***tless but doing what has to be done anyway, and striving and striving again no matter how much of a mess you make of things, NOT scoring improbably-easy after improbably-easy shining victory. The Knights are incredibly lucky to stay alive, and they're also kept alive because more powerful beings WANT them kept alive, and "watch over them." This is the Realms, and that's often the way things work. Again, "history" is trumping what would make a stronger story.
* Ed's also trying to underscore that heroics often involve being loyal to your friends/companions, and learning to work as a team. That's what the Knights accomplish in these three books - - and it's quite legitimate to contend that this is about ALL they accomplish, though they do manage the "being utterly scared and up against stronger foes but going in and doing it anyway" heroism. Ed told me how much he wanted to have more wordcount and more time to write, to bring the Knights into Shadowdale and show Doust ruling it and Florin gaining stature throughout the Dales . . . but there just wasn't the time and wordcount, because he refused to leave important story elements out or not show the reader the banter and subtly growing characters of the Knights (and to those who say they don't develop, I merely shrug and say that as an editor, I can certainly see the character development; Ed kept it far more subtle than most fantasy authors bother to, but that's a strength of his writing, not a deficiency).
And when I write these things, believe me: as the player of a Knight or two, I'm a far harsher critic of these books than most readers are equipped to be.
And I like them very much. I think the first and the third are the best books in the series, and I wish there had been another two trilogies, at least. However, I strongly suspect that you'll see more Elminster books from Ed's pen next - - because, I suspect even more strongly, that's what the editors will demand.
I also disagree, Orn, that the Knights failed to complete "most of their quests." Their primary 'quest,' after they got the charter, was to stay alive ... and they managed that. 
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 13 Feb 2009 02:15:39 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 04:18:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
What's ironic is that Ed never wanted to write about Elminster OR the Seven as anything more than offstage, referred-to-by-others characters, but the publishers always want him to make them the main characters in his novels. Just as Bob Salvatore finds it very hard to get away from the constant urgings to write more about Drizzt. "Write another surefire tale about your iconic character" has been the refrain for literally decades now.
I'm sure if Ed never wrote another word about any of the Chosen, he'd be more than happy. He has SO many neglected characters to tell the stories of, dating back to before TSR ever approached him to make the Realms into a game setting.
love,
THO
-THO,So WotC/TSR wanted Ed to write about the settings "Iconics". And now they took THEM away?   Very interesting. 
BRIMSTONE
EDIT POST 500  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 13 Feb 2009 04:23:09 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 07:03:58
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| Thank you for that milady. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 07:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
What's ironic is that Ed never wanted to write about Elminster OR the Seven as anything more than offstage, referred-to-by-others characters, but the publishers always want him to make them the main characters in his novels. Just as Bob Salvatore finds it very hard to get away from the constant urgings to write more about Drizzt. "Write another surefire tale about your iconic character" has been the refrain for literally decades now.
I'm sure if Ed never wrote another word about any of the Chosen, he'd be more than happy. He has SO many neglected characters to tell the stories of, dating back to before TSR ever approached him to make the Realms into a game setting.
love,
THO
-THO,So WotC/TSR wanted Ed to write about the settings "Iconics". And now they took THEM away? Very interesting.
BRIMSTONE
EDIT POST 500
It's something many of us have pointed out before... According to some Wizards folks, "people" perceived Elminster and the Seven as being too prominent, and that's why they had to be removed. These same Wizards folks conveniently ignore the fact that it was their demands to Ed that made El and the Sisters keep getting screen time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 16:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
What's ironic is that Ed never wanted to write about Elminster OR the Seven as anything more than offstage, referred-to-by-others characters, but the publishers always want him to make them the main characters in his novels. Just as Bob Salvatore finds it very hard to get away from the constant urgings to write more about Drizzt. "Write another surefire tale about your iconic character" has been the refrain for literally decades now.
I'm sure if Ed never wrote another word about any of the Chosen, he'd be more than happy. He has SO many neglected characters to tell the stories of, dating back to before TSR ever approached him to make the Realms into a game setting.
love,
THO
-THO,So WotC/TSR wanted Ed to write about the settings "Iconics". And now they took THEM away? Very interesting.
BRIMSTONE
EDIT POST 500
As wild as it sounds it's exactly what they did. Its a major reason I got riled up with what they did, i can put up with most anything....but I hate hipocracy.
Ed's characters, that he created, nutured and loved deserved better.
ed: sp |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 14 Feb 2009 01:43:12 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 17:32:54
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I agree.
And yes, Hooded One, thank you. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Orn
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 18:55:52
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| Thanks, Lady Hooded one. I read your post a few times, and you raised some excellent points. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 12:07:40
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On the whole TSR/WotC wanting El/Seven Sisters novels while also wanting their role cut down to size topic - before starting to complain about paradoxes and the like, shouldn't one consider the possibility that it might be because the people now in charge of the Realms are not the same people as those who decreed that "there must be Elminster novels and a Seven Sisters sourcebook?"
I'm saying this, because in my opinion the scaling down of the Chosen of Mystra's roles began early on in the 3rd edition publications (and if they'd kept it at that level I personally would have had no complaints - but they had to go and kill off as many of them as they could instead. Grrr). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 14:48:34
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| talkin bout all powerful heroes ive been a bit disapointed with the ease with which a lot of dragons have been overcome by mere humans.i thought they were uber powerful.even entreri in p o t w k refers to the dragon sisters in some awe.and hed wipe the floor with most of the cast from rogue dragons which is the series i was referring to. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 15:01:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Again, "history" is trumping what would make a stronger story.
I really don't think so: just a more linear and a more conventional story. Both of Orn's objections, the lack of simplistic focus and the role of happenstance and manipulation over easy self-determination, aren't characteristics of Ed's writing per se but of the Realms, and some of my favourite. Unfortunately, some people -- not Orn necessarily -- confuse heroism with egotism.quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
On the whole TSR/WotC wanting El/Seven Sisters novels while also wanting their role cut down to size topic - before starting to complain about paradoxes and the like, shouldn't one consider the possibility that it might be because the people now in charge of the Realms are not the same people as those who decreed that "there must be Elminster novels and a Seven Sisters sourcebook?"
Phil Athans and Richard Baker were in major roles then and now.
In one of the promo articles for the 3E Realms in 2001, Richard said: 'This isn’t Elminster’s world. This is the world where your player characters are engaged in writing the story of their deeds, their defeats, and their triumphs.' Rob Heinsoo added: 'It also gives you a clearer sense that the PCs’ actions matter, that Elminster and the other major characters of the Realms won’t solve the world’s problems.'
Yet far from scaling down the Chosen's roles, the 3E era saw them cemented as 'iconic characters', Elminster placed front and centre in the FRCS and his face all over the website, with Julia Martin deciding not to use Ed's 1996 Conspectus introduction because it wasn't by Elminster, two more Elminster novels and more short stories starring El and the Seven. (At the same time, he was removed from his legitimate narrator/mouthpiece role.)
The Wizards editors and managers kept on abusing Ed's characters long after Rich, at least, recognized it was a bad idea, then years later used the same rhetoric to justify a different, even more harmful outcome, without admitting the least responsibility for what they'd done. |
Edited by - Faraer on 15 Feb 2009 15:09:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 15:38:58
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Not only that, but there are other ways they could have been written out of their active roles without killing them or blowing up the setting...
As a challenge to myself, I took the supposed problems of Mystra and her Chosen, and decided to see if I could remove them without the Sellplague or any other ridiculousness. I followed the same idea of having Cyric murder Mystra 2.0, but made it plausible, and then drew from existing Realmslore (and a lot of my own ideas) to reduce the number of Chosen, create a new Mystra, and give her a strong neutral aspect.
So if I, someone who has never signed an NDA or seen any shared-world product before it was released, can come up with a more plausible way to accomplish the same thing without blowing up the setting, then the professionals certainly could have. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:26:44
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| Because the Wizards people aren't telling us which of their stated justifications were primary and which are fringe benefits, we've all been having to guess what the real process was. I don't know if I've got it right, but I can put together an argument for what they did that's a good deal more compelling than most of the reasons stated individually, many of which are weak if not insupportable. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:43:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yet far from scaling down the Chosen's roles, the 3E era saw them cemented as 'iconic characters', Elminster placed front and centre in the FRCS and his face all over the website, with Julia Martin deciding not to use Ed's 1996 Conspectus introduction because it wasn't by Elminster, two more Elminster novels and more short stories starring El and the Seven. (At the same time, he was removed from his legitimate narrator/mouthpiece role.)
I'm not pointing fingers, but I think it should also be noted that the "signature" trilogy that introduced 3rd edition, The Return of the Archwizards, features the unfortunate trope that "Elminster must know about the evil, and then must be removed from the story," as well as the Chosen being called together to fight the Shadovar as if they were the Justice League of Faerun taking on the Injustice Gang of Shar.
I think this set the tone that:
1. Elminster would react and save the day if he could.
2. The Chosen band together to fight "evil."
3. Every major event has to top the last one. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 15 Feb 2009 16:45:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 17:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not pointing fingers, but I think it should also be noted that the "signature" trilogy that introduced 3rd edition, The Return of the Archwizards, features the unfortunate trope that "Elminster must know about the evil, and then must be removed from the story," as well as the Chosen being called together to fight the Shadovar as if they were the Justice League of Faerun taking on the Injustice Gang of Shar.
I think this set the tone that:
1. Elminster would react and save the day if he could.
2. The Chosen band together to fight "evil."
3. Every major event has to top the last one.
I totally agree with this. It's one of many reasons that I think 3E's intro was where the Realms started going in the wrong direction. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 18:00:23
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I'm sure that's so. The hype given the event trilogies, combined with their presentation as 'the' things going on in the Player's Guide to Faerûn (compare that to the 1987 set's current clack!), and the assignment of the year-titles to RSEs, did a lot to undermine the painstakingly built sense of plurality and locality that's so evident in the Knights novels. I commented on the 'must write out the Chosen' thinking in my review of Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land on Eric Boyd's thread. As well as the implications you cite, both that and Elminster's sojourn in hell suggest an impulse to prune and narrow the Realms as an active world of disparate actors to something like an instanced dungeon in an MMORPG according to what seems to be an antisocial, non-Realmsian idea of what heroism and protagonization are about. Hence the 'space to tell [our] stories in' thing, and Realms-2008.
No one seems to have drawn the parallel between the Knights trilogy and Castle Zagyg: the paradigmatic centres of, respectively, the Forgotten Realms and Gygaxian D&D, published decades late and following so much peripheral tat, incomplete, after the horse has bolted. |
Edited by - Faraer on 15 Feb 2009 18:06:36 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 22:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I understand that this is the outgrowth of the fact that they are centuries older and wiser than most of their foes, but I find that El's calm and often condescending superiority, as well as his constant "rightness" becomes tiresome after a while.
I can think of only one time when I was REALLY ticked of at El because of his behaviour. It was in Swords of Dragonfire where he first took Khelbens blackstaff from him and teleported it back to waterdeep, and then his humiliation of Manshoon.
I was shocked at how easily he overpowered Khelben (and that he did. I mean, taking away his namesake STAFF like it was nothing?) and what he did to Manshoon. I was under the impression that El was a bit wary of Manshoon, but here it came across as if Ol' Manshy was hopelessly out of his league. I like my villains to be little less overmatched, thank you very much. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 23:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yet far from scaling down the Chosen's roles, the 3E era saw them cemented as 'iconic characters', Elminster placed front and centre in the FRCS and his face all over the website, with Julia Martin deciding not to use Ed's 1996 Conspectus introduction because it wasn't by Elminster, two more Elminster novels and more short stories starring El and the Seven. (At the same time, he was removed from his legitimate narrator/mouthpiece role.)
I'm not pointing fingers, but I think it should also be noted that the "signature" trilogy that introduced 3rd edition, The Return of the Archwizards, features the unfortunate trope that "Elminster must know about the evil, and then must be removed from the story," as well as the Chosen being called together to fight the Shadovar as if they were the Justice League of Faerun taking on the Injustice Gang of Shar.
I think this set the tone that:
1. Elminster would react and save the day if he could.
2. The Chosen band together to fight "evil."
3. Every major event has to top the last one.
I think the only reason why they would have to write out the chosen though is because they were writing RSE's. If they hadn't focused so many of the 3e novels on RSE's, they wouldn't have to explain why some "all-powerful" character wasn't around. |
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ed greenwoods novels
