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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 18:09:26
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No, Karzak, that's not something to grin at. This is a civil community we have here.
There's no mystery why people pay special attention to the primary creative force behind a world, or why people introduced to that world through its echoes are sometimes surprised by its substance. It's a good deal less obvious why people who don't like authors apparently read them and go on about them. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 20:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Have you tried reading any of his newest Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy? They are QUITE good.
Well I read - more or less - the two that are out there and they have me torn in two. Ed can definetely develop his characters in a novel, BUT these two novels are divided among "too many players". This reminds me of a cheap soap opera where you are totally confused when you dont know for sure which bad guy character is which one when youre seeing your first episode about halfway in the third year. Its realistic for such a political place as Cormyr, but its not really easy to read if you cant remember these detail while reading it.
Too many players? You should try Robert Jordan's the wheel of time series. I had to reread the books published so far three times before I got a hang of all the characters.  |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 04:10:23
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Reading this thread, I find it hard to decide if Karzak is deliberately trolling, or if he is truly unaware of the history of the published Realms and Ed's place in it.
The story of Spellfire (Ed as creator of the Realms being asked to write a series of novels detailing it, the pre-existing Doug Niles novel being printed first to kick off the Realms with a burst of products, a change at the helm of the Books Department and the new head wanting Ed's writing style changed, Spellfire being heavily edited, and two decades later the "revised and expanded" version being shortened again by editorial hands so it's SHORTER than the original) and Silverfall, and the Double Diamond Triangle Saga, and the many other times where Ed as creator of the Realms was asked to write something in a very short time, that was then heavily edited to fit changing company policy and direction; these are all known, established stories.
in short, Ed HAS received far more editorial attention than other Realms writers, who are usually assigned to write a book after their outline for the story they want to tell has been approved. They receive typical editing (grammar, storytelling polishes, etc.), whereas time and again Ed has been asked to lead the way and detail a topic or area, and his work has been plundered for lore to be put elsewhere and used by others (fiction, not just game lore).
This isn't news to anyone who's followed the Realms for years, and it isn't just Ed or THO telling us this; I've heard some of it corroborated by TSR and later WotC employees at past GenCon seminars, over many years. Peter Archer, then head of WotC's book department, discussed some of these instances at length with me at a Book Expo America convention in Chicago, years back. We've also had former TSR editors (such as Mr. Lowder) post about some of these edits here at Candlekeep.
Is there some particular reason you, in your words, "just don't get it," Karzak?
I'm not trying to take a poke at you here, I'm honestly curious.
Your last reply posted in this thread seems to be obliquely implying that Ed's writing would be truly disastrously bad if it wasn't rescued by WotC editors. That seems a rather odd conclusion to me, given all the awards he's won, and some of the great sf, pulp adventure, fantasy, and horror stories he's published elsewhere. Or do you think cadres of editors rush around "fixing" everything he writes, before we see it?
If you DO think so, then couldn't one just as easily conclude his writing would be utterly brilliant, all the time, if these out-of-breath editors didn't always get in to mar it?
Or am I misreading the intent of your remarks completely?
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Edited by - A Gavel on 05 Oct 2008 04:29:14 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 10:28:58
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| I would love, REALLY love to read a Realms novel by Ed that hasn't been savaged by the editors like Spellfire. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 13:04:49
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I enjoy Ed's books. I love the complexity, the layers, the tangents, the characterisation, the lore. It FEELS like the Realms.
Once I finish Mistshore I've got a stack of five of his novels lined-up to read next.
Read what you like, don't bitch about something you don't - it serves no purpose beyond wasting your energy. |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 13:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I find it amazing that Karzak doesn't like Ed's writing but continues to buy his novels. Masochism?
Ahaha, no. I stopped buying his novels a long, long time ago, thank god. I think the latest offering of his that I had the displeasure of reading was... I'm not sure, in publishing order, probably Death of the Dragon? And then only because I was a completionist and wanted to finish reading the entire trilogy (I've learned better since: if it stinks, stop, for life is short and shouldn't be wasted reading fiction one finds deeply dreadful). That, and he co-wrote the trilogy with other people, which made the experience just on this side of bearable.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
No, Karzak, that's not something to grin at. This is a civil community we have here.
I found it funny. What?
quote:
It's a good deal less obvious why people who don't like authors apparently read them and go on about them.
See above.
A Gavel: No, I wasn't aware of all that. Why should I be? |
Edited by - Karzak on 05 Oct 2008 13:22:51 |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 22:22:07
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Certainly smells like a troll to me.
If you don't like someone's books, just say so, say why if you feel the need to, and leave it at that.
There's no need to needle the fans or defenders of an author, particularly if you belittle or taunt them in the process. YOU posed the questions as to Ed's editing and why he got the "editorial attention," after all.
To me, as a reader, Ed Greenwood's Realms fiction varies widely in that very subjective thing called "quality," but it's always interesting, always gives me tons of important Realmslore and makes the Realms seem more "real," and the best of his writing is as good as topnotch fantasy writing anywhere.
In my opinion, Ed hasn't written any really "standout" classic fantasy yet, but then (again, in my opinion), only about a dozen writers (in English; that's all I read in) have.
Ed's books sell as well as they do because a large number of readers have learned to expect good entertainment FOR THEM, when they see his name on the cover of a book in a store.
My local public library is part of a very large city library system, so it draws on a collective pool of books that contains copies of almost all of Ed's Realms novels. They are almost always "out to patrons," at any one time, so a lot of people are reading the man's stuff.
If he doesn't turn your crank, that's fine, but it's hardly fair to sneer at someone's writing when you admit yourself that you haven't read it for eight years (DotD came out in 2000). That's at least five novels and a bunch of short stories (including an entire collection of short stories, about half of them new) that you've not read.
(I'm sure a lot of people would have a different opinion of Tolkien if they'd stopped reading him after Leaf by Niggle and Father Giles of Ham, and never bothered looking at the Hobbit or The Lord of The Rings.
And before you start, no, I'm not equating Ed Greenwood with J.R.R. Tolkien in terms of that very subjective thing called "quality.")
Hmmph. Trolls, in the very hallowed halls of Candlekeep . . . |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 23:25:07
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Very well said, Baleful Avatar. I was going to make many of the same points, but it hardly seems necessary now.
Ed has over 80,000 books in his house, and easily two-thirds of them are fiction of various sorts, so it's safe to say that he doesn't like reading the works of just a few authors. The rich variety of fiction (even fantasy fiction, and even Realms fiction) is a tribute to the varied tastes of readers.
Not everyone is going to like everything, no matter how "good" the writing is perceived (or even generally agreed) to be.
And that's as it should be, or every single book crossing my editorial desk would be very much the same, and I'd have gone insane years ago in a far less enjoyable fashion than I did.
love to all (yes, Karzak, even you [kiss]),
THO |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 04:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Malarick
The rules are simple:-
1. Please keep discussions within the correct threads, and do not discuss the events that take place beyond the scheduled discussions breaks. These will be considered as spoilers and will be edited, moved or possibly deleted.
2. No author bashing! Authors are the honored guests of Candlekeep and will be treated with respect. You may disagree on points in the discussion, but no attacks.
3. Have fun!
See.....simple!
Thanks
Just like to point this out. Maybe someone needs to study up before posting here? I mean, I know Candelkeep is a very different forum than the WizBoards. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alian LeLoss
Acolyte
Russia
2 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 14:34:14
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| I love Greenwood's books. But it always a lot of cruelty. The Temptation puts up a fine show. |
Life is like Death... only Backward. |
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Orn
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 19:57:22
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Cormyr: A Novel is to date my favorite realms novel, but I thought the The Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy was awful.
I struggled to finish the first book in the series, Swords of Eveningstar, as I found it very unfocused and anti-heroic. I couldn't even finish the second book, because the anti-heroic component was replaced with complete ridiculousness.
Thanks very much for creating the realms Ed, but I think I'll have to steer clear of your novels when you don't have a co-author. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 21:02:16
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| Just curious. What do you mean by anti-heroic? |
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Natalie
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:14:09
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I guess this is definitely a case of "your mileage may vary." I've read this forum for years, not to mention a LOT of fantasy novels, including just about every TSR and WotC novel published, but just created an account now to post because I just finished the Knights of Myth Drannor, and LOVED it.
I like Cormyr: A Novel too, and other standout books, for me, are Homeland by Salvatore, Elminster: The Making Of A Mage, The Simbul's Gift, and Shadows of Doom.
I'd rate Stormlight and Depths of Madness as guilty pleasures: I like them, but see flaws in them, but, heck, like them anyway.
But for me, obviously not for Orn, the Knights books are REALLY topnotch for WotC books, and very good when rated against all the rest of the fantasy books I've read. Just so you know my system, I put classic at the top, excellent below that, and very good below that. Most novels I read only make good or less. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious. What do you mean by anti-heroic?
Ditto. I'm curious what you mean. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:38:54
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-I just picked up all the Elminster Novels. (Making, Myth Drannor, Temptation, In Hell, and His Daughter. )
-All together I got 16 Realms Novels today! 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 01:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-I just picked up all the Elminster Novels. (Making, Myth Drannor, Temptation, In Hell, and His Daughter.)
-All together I got 16 Realms Novels today!
BRIMSTONE
You are sooo lucky...my favorite used book store closed down about 2 years ago, so I've been having a hard time finding the older books since... |
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Orn
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 18:47:12
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| I meant anti-heroic in the way that "heroes" in Swords of Eveningstar utterly failed to complete most of their quests. It was far too clear that the Knights were simply pawns of greater powers, unable to complete anything on their own. Beyond the first chapter, they were unable to accomplish much of anything. Indeed any rewards they were given were acquired much too easily. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 19:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Orn
I meant anti-heroic in the way that "heroes" in Swords of Eveningstar utterly failed to complete most of their quests. It was far too clear that the Knights were simply pawns of greater powers, unable to complete anything on their own. Beyond the first chapter, they were unable to accomplish much of anything. Indeed any rewards they were given were acquired much too easily.
I feel a differently about it. I feel like the foes they come up against are above and beyond what they can handle themselves and are much more that would come up against a comparable group that is "out of the spotlight". |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 22:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Orn
I meant anti-heroic in the way that "heroes" in Swords of Eveningstar utterly failed to complete most of their quests. It was far too clear that the Knights were simply pawns of greater powers, unable to complete anything on their own. Beyond the first chapter, they were unable to accomplish much of anything. Indeed any rewards they were given were acquired much too easily.
Thanks. I see what you mean, but to me that was a positive thing. It was a nice change from the usual victory by the smallest margin. Then again, Ed is probably the only (current) Realms author I enjoy, so I am partial. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 00:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Orn
I meant anti-heroic in the way that "heroes" in Swords of Eveningstar utterly failed to complete most of their quests. It was far too clear that the Knights were simply pawns of greater powers, unable to complete anything on their own. Beyond the first chapter, they were unable to accomplish much of anything. Indeed any rewards they were given were acquired much too easily.
Thanks. I see what you mean, but to me that was a positive thing. It was a nice change from the usual victory by the smallest margin. Then again, Ed is probably the only (current) Realms author I enjoy, so I am partial.
I too like this aspect of the Knights books. I am frankly tired of the smirking, all powerful, all knowing, self-assured characters like Storm Silverhand and Elminster. I much prefer my "heroes" to be attempting to do the right thing under very adverse circumstances. In reality, that's what most people who are dubbed "heroes" say about themselves. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 03:49:53
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-I like the novels because the characters were low-level. After awhile I get tired of the Epic Uber-Cheese that goes on in the Realms. Sometimes the novels too me got Helter-Skelter. Its like where did that come from.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 12 Feb 2009 03:50:46 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 08:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Orn
I meant anti-heroic in the way that "heroes" in Swords of Eveningstar utterly failed to complete most of their quests. It was far too clear that the Knights were simply pawns of greater powers, unable to complete anything on their own. Beyond the first chapter, they were unable to accomplish much of anything. Indeed any rewards they were given were acquired much too easily.
Thanks. I see what you mean, but to me that was a positive thing. It was a nice change from the usual victory by the smallest margin. Then again, Ed is probably the only (current) Realms author I enjoy, so I am partial.
I too like this aspect of the Knights books. I am frankly tired of the smirking, all powerful, all knowing, self-assured characters like Storm Silverhand and Elminster. I much prefer my "heroes" to be attempting to do the right thing under very adverse circumstances. In reality, that's what most people who are dubbed "heroes" say about themselves.
True, but I prefer those others to the Drizzt/Dragonlance, etc. "We face impossible odds, but still we triumph through luck and morale" clichés. Almost as irritating as most of the long-winded "we must stop the ancient world threatening evil" epics. Then again, I hate long action scenes in any form as well, which is a problem with the Elminster stories. |
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Orn
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 17:30:14
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quote:
Thanks. I see what you mean, but to me that was a positive thing. It was a nice change from the usual victory by the smallest margin. Then again, Ed is probably the only (current) Realms author I enjoy, so I am partial.
Well I very much still enjoy victories by a small margin, but maybe on day I'll tire of it too (hope not). I can't see that happening because events will often not work out as expected.
I very much like to see a struggle. I realize that many would be heroes would fail more often than not, but they are not worth writing about unless they accomplish or change something (maybe). "Heroes" that had everything handed to them, I find very boring. When playing Dungeons and Dragons, my friends call it a "joke plot".
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 20:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Orn
I very much like to see a struggle. I realize that many would be heroes would fail more often than not, but they are not worth writing about unless they accomplish or change something (maybe).
This get's at why I found the last book in the Kights of Myth Drannor trilogy to be a disappointing end to the series. I enjoyed that fact that the Knights had a bumbling beginning, and owed their initial success as much to luck as to personal strength. I also enjoyed the way they were caught between forces they had nothing to do with, and then hustled away by Vangey the control freak as soon as they attained any degree of success. But the fact is that the Knights later become heroic protagonists in the history of Shadowdale. I'd like to see at least one more novel that would draw a narrative line between this motley adventuring party and their heroic future. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 12 Feb 2009 20:23:59 |
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Orn
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 21:28:42
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| One problem might have been that I didn't read of their adventures in Shadowdale (and such). |
Edited by - Orn on 12 Feb 2009 21:31:41 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 22:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Orn
One problem might have been that I didn't read of their adventures in Shadowdale (and such).
Good point. The novels should stand on their own.
I think they do, actually, but since the Knights are a feature of Shadowdale in FR novels and in the Shadowdale booklet in the 2E Campaign Setting, I would like to see the origens story of this legendary group bring us up to the point at which they connect prominantly with the Campaign Setting and existing novels. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 22:25:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I too like this aspect of the Knights books. I am frankly tired of the smirking, all powerful, all knowing, self-assured characters like Storm Silverhand and Elminster. I much prefer my "heroes" to be attempting to do the right thing under very adverse circumstances. In reality, that's what most people who are dubbed "heroes" say about themselves.
I agree with you on all points except the bit about Storm and Elminster being all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 23:44:08
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quote:
I agree with you on all points except the bit about Storm and Elminster being all-powerful, all-knowing, etc.
Fair enough. They are not gods. They are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, but in Ed´s fiction they are almost invariably superior to all of their foes. There are, of course, a few exceptions. But even when they are magically disadvantaged --as El is in Shadows of Doom-- they are still tactically superior. I understand that this is the outgrowth of the fact that they are centuries older and wiser than most of their foes, but I find that El's calm and often condescending superiority, as well as his constant "rightness" becomes tiresome after a while. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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ed greenwoods novels
