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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:27:22
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i dont want to slag off here but after reading some of the excellent books from some of the newer authors in the realms eg byers,reid and kemp in paticular i really notice the difference when reading one of eds books.i know without him there would be no realms but ive just read silverfall and it was just awful.i completely lost track of what some characters where meant to be doing and the way the simbul just annhilates everyone so easily is just boring.i actually enjoyed some of the earlier stuff like spellfire and crown of fire but then i read hand of fire and that was shockingly bad.it was like a scrolling beat em up videogame with endless bad guys queing up to be killed.from now on i think hed be better off stickin to the modules and things like that.
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go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:08:10
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Well, I enjoy Ed's novels, so I wouldn't want him to stay away from writing them (not that I think he'd do that anyway).
No one's saying you have to like said novels, though--that said, you did say you liked some of his other work. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Oct 2008 21:04:58 |
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Lord Nemes
Seeker
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 00:19:35
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| I'm reading Swords of Dragonfire right now and so far it's realy good. |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 01:20:24
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| So long as he's making money and selling books he should keep doing what he does, that's just good sense. Not to bag on the guy or anything, I personally enjoy his setting and continued support of it here and elsewhere far, far more than his novels. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 03:14:08
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Well, if we all liked the same fiction, there'd be very few authors published to choose from, no? Yes?
To be fair to Ed, he is the one Realms author who more than any other has written books in a blinding hurry (often a month or less) to help TSR out of a jam, AND the author who has had to write to editorial direction (write a book to match this title and this cover, with these characters in it and having this and that happen). In the case of SILVERFALL, he was ordered to jam all seven of the Seven Sisters into it, and have them "hand the baton off to each other" as the story unfolded (that is: they couldn't work together and be together in scenes, each one had to meet the next one and hand the adventure on to her). Not Ed's idea, and I didn't think it worked that well, but I thought he tried really hard to make it work.
Also, Ed's novels are THE best (of course, considering they're written by the creator of the Realms) for gleaning details of the Realms from, for our games. Not to mention Ed often makes the Realms seem more alive and real than many other authors (whose Realms stories may be great, but sometimes seem to me as if they're happening in "any medieval fantasy world" with some Realms names tacked on).
Anyway, that's my two coppers.
I think Ed's current Knights trilogy is as good as any fantasy being published today, bar the rare "standout" books.
That's just my personal judgment, of course. But then, my personal judgment is all that matters to me. If I've paid for the book, read it, enjoyed it and don't regret spending the money for it, then it's "good" by me.
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 10:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
AND the author who has had to write to editorial direction (write a book to match this title and this cover, with these characters in it and having this and that happen).
Here's what I don't get. Aren't other authors subject to the same level of editorial direction? If not, how come he's singled out to the extent that almost any criticism leveled at his fiction is blamed on editors (because I certainly don't see other authors deflect criticism in such a manner, or at least not so often)? Silverfall is terrible and disjointed? It's the editors. Spellfire and the sequels are repetitive and occasionally nonsensical? Editors made him cut out chunks. His villains act like retards? It's the editors!
Are WotC/TSR editors joined in a hivemind?
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I think Ed's current Knights trilogy is as good as any fantasy being published today, bar the rare "standout" books.
I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that sounds to me like faint praise.  |
Edited by - Karzak on 03 Oct 2008 10:06:40 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 11:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
...Spellfire[/i] and the sequels are repetitive and occasionally nonsensical? Editors made him cut out chunks...
IIRC the original "published" version was like this and in the new re-release most of (if not all) of the cut outs were put back in. I never read the original, but from what I read on the internet, the "long winded" parts are what was cut out originally.
Anyways, yeah, I personally overall prefer Ed's setting and lore writing over his novel writing myself (although I thoroughly enjoyed the first 2 Elminster novels and the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy). It's a style you have to adapt to and be prepared for when diving into one of his books (sometimes keep pen and paper handy to write down the characters because you might forget who the protagonist of the story is because he highlights EVERYONE down to the guards at the gate - which is great for lore and makes the realms come alive but deviates from the "main" story). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 12:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
(sometimes keep pen and paper handy to write down the characters because you might forget who the protagonist of the story is because he highlights EVERYONE down to the guards at the gate - which is great for lore and makes the realms come alive but deviates from the "main" story).
It's not just that. It's more that some of his characters don't have actual personalities to speak of, or share characteristics/speech mannerisms to the extent that they're very hard to distinguish from one another. The intent of focusing on the "little people" is nice in principle, but the way it's done renders it pretty pointless.
Actually, come to think of it, editors who insist on hacking away chunks of his prose probably have the right idea. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 13:07:29
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Of all the facets that make up "the writing" of a particular author, style--or really, it's voice we're talking about here, which is something oh so closely related--is the one that's almost impossible to effectively argue about. Voice cannot be learned or imitated (though curiously, style can be--witness the Carter/del Rey Conan pastiches--they kinda got the style, but didn't even come close to Howard's voice).
I think that strong voices and effective characterization are what most attract us to writers--what makes us fans. In the Realms, the Supreme High Hacker MageLords sitting atop those two thrones are Ed Greenwood, with his inimitable voice, and Bob Salvatore, with his unforgettable characters.
I'd kill to be as good as either of those guys at the things they're so good at.
(And on an only slightly related note, if you guys think that voice/style is an acquired taste and that there are certain books where you gotta have a program to tell the players in Realms fiction, you ought to try being a Stephen Erikson fan--I love that guy's novels, but I've done a worse job spreading the word on him than any other writer I've ever tried to share.) |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 03 Oct 2008 13:08:11 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 16:02:05
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To me, Edīs novels are what best define the Realms as a living place. Being honest with Ed and with myself, there are some stories that I donīt like, but to read Ed, and the books of Elaine, Steven, and Erik, is to be in the Realms.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 16:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I think that strong voices and effective characterization are what most attract us to writers--what makes us fans. In the Realms, the Supreme High Hacker MageLords sitting atop those two thrones are Ed Greenwood, with his inimitable voice, and Bob Salvatore, with his unforgettable characters.
An opinion, and not one universally shared, I assure you. There're people who can't stomach either writer, and the view you put forward would baffle quite a few. Like, "...what effective characterization?" Unless you mean "effective" in the sense of "makes you want to drop the book and sell it to a used store posthaste." (I did. Didn't get big bucks, but hey, somewhat more profitable than simply using them as fuel.) |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:11:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
An opinion, and not one universally shared, I assure you. There're people who can't stomach either writer, and the view you put forward would baffle quite a few. Like, "...what effective characterization?" Unless you mean "effective" in the sense of "makes you want to drop the book and sell it to a used store posthaste." (I did. Didn't get big bucks, but hey, somewhat more profitable than simply using them as fuel.)
Sure it's an opinion. I like to think it's a reasonably well-informed one.
But I'll try again. Speaking as subjectively as is possible in this case, Ed Greenwood has a very distinctive literary voice, and it is through the enormous popularity of the character Drizzt, as created and developed by Bob Salvatore, that a plurality of people who "come into" the Realms do so. (I actually think it's a simple majority, but will keep that claim out in the interest of finding common ground.)
And hey, whenever you feel moved to burn a book, stop and drop me an e-mail instead. At the least I'll pay the postage to get it to your nearest Goodwill or something.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Sure it's an opinion. I like to think it's a reasonably well-informed one.
If you're speaking of popularity, certainly, but if we were to use popularity as an indicator of quality... well, you must think Dan Brown and Christopher Paolini write great literature too.
quote:
And hey, whenever you feel moved to burn a book, stop and drop me an e-mail instead. At the least I'll pay the postage to get it to your nearest Goodwill or something.
Oh, as I said, I sell it to secondhand bookstores (so other curious souls won't have to pay for the book in such a way that it'll push additional royalties to the author), though sometimes the book will look a bit battered from having been flung at the wall. But I've become much wiser about my reading choices, and no longer give second, third, or fourth chances to writers I know to be talentless hacks. Book-flinging incidents have much lessened! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:21:46
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| Whichever. I still maintain that Ed Greenwood's work is marked by a unique and distinct voice and that Bob Salvatore is a demon hand at characterization. As it happens, both of those things can be present in a fiction independent of other factors, including one so nebulous as "quality." |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:56:25
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Well, Karzak, different strokes for different folks.
We all have our dislikes and likes, but I for one try not to make "I like" equal "it's good" and "I dislike" equals "it's bad." A mistake all too many posters on the Internet seem to make these days.
I mean, I know I'm INFALLIBLE, but I'm not so sure about you.
BB |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
and that Bob Salvatore is a demon hand at characterization.
I'd like to know: can you in any way explain this opinion? To me, saying that Salvatore does good characterization is something like saying "the sun sets in the east and the moon is made of blue cheese." |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:02:26
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Agreed. If Ed Greenwood's novels were universally judged "bad," he'd hardly be asked to judge the World Fantasy Awards, the Sunbursts, and others . . . or win so many awards himself.
For my money, his TSR and WotC writing has varied wildly in terms of quality. His best are among the best fantasy currently being published. (And I make my living as a professional editor; I'd be fired if I published too many stinkers, so in some sense my judgments are borne out in the only place that really matters: the marketplace. I hear your "popularity" argument, Karzak, but against it I place this: consistent high sales, from book to book, bespeak satisfied readers - - and satisfying readers is what this is all about. Ed scores high on the "good pageturning read" scale with at least four major publishing houses, because that's how many he has chasing him for new titles right now.) |
Edited by - A Publishing Lackey on 03 Oct 2008 19:02:55 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
and that Bob Salvatore is a demon hand at characterization.
I'd like to know: can you in any way explain this opinion? To me, saying that Salvatore does good characterization is something like saying "the sun sets in the east and the moon is made of blue cheese."
I believe that Christopher is saying that, in HIS opinion (which I share), RAS' characters take on a life outside the story and makes the reader care for their well-being. It may not be YOUR opinion, but that doesn't mean that we believe the sun orbits the earth, so I, for one, would appreciate that you do not imply that your opinion matters more than ours. I certainly don't think mine's worth more than anyone else's (I just love to debate  ).
Edit to include the quoted text. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 03 Oct 2008 19:05:38 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
We all have our dislikes and likes, but I for one try not to make "I like" equal "it's good" and "I dislike" equals "it's bad." A mistake all too many posters on the Internet seem to make these days.
I mean, I know I'm INFALLIBLE, but I'm not so sure about you.
BB
I would have thought turning 'I find some of his characters hard to distinguish' into 'they are hard to distinguish' is a pretty obvious mistake.
Do you also have moderate opinions, Karzak, or express any negative ones unsarcastically? |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 19:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Do you also have moderate opinions, Karzak, or express any negative ones unsarcastically?
Of course not. Caustic and categorical is what Karzak does best. Heīs a half orc, for goodness sake  |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 20:06:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Do you also have moderate opinions, Karzak, or express any negative ones unsarcastically?
Of course not. Caustic and categorical is what Karzak does best. Heīs a half orc, for goodness sake
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
and that Bob Salvatore is a demon hand at characterization.
I'd like to know: can you in any way explain this opinion? To me, saying that Salvatore does good characterization is something like saying "the sun sets in the east and the moon is made of blue cheese."
I believe that Christopher is saying that, in HIS opinion (which I share), RAS' characters take on a life outside the story and makes the reader care for their well-being. It may not be YOUR opinion, but that doesn't mean that we believe the sun orbits the earth, so I, for one, would appreciate that you do not imply that your opinion matters more than ours.
Uh, no. I was indicating that I find this opinion incomprehensible, not that I think my opinion matters more than his. That's why I asked for an explanation. |
Edited by - Karzak on 03 Oct 2008 20:08:29 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 20:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Uh, no. I was indicating that I find this opinion incomprehensible, not that I think my opinion matters more than his. That's why I asked for an explanation.
But that's the trap! You find the opinion incomprehensible, so nothing that anyone says to try and explain it would result in you understanding it any more than you do now.
That's the biggest problem with debates like the 3.X/4E flame wars going on right now. Neither side understands the other and just keeps asking them to explain. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 22:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And now can we perhaps find our way back to the topic?
Okay.
I like two things about Edīs novels. I like the dialogue and I like the lushness of the Lore factor. The dialogue between the protagonists in the first two Knights of Myth Drannor novels actually reminds me of Joss Whedon dialogue; witty, sexy and deadpan.
I dislike Edīs penchant for Byzantine plot structure. It is frankly often hard to keep track of all of the minor characters and their respective scheming. The Spellfire series is typical of this, particularly the last one.
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 23:03:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And now can we perhaps find our way back to the topic?
Okay.
I like two things about Edīs novels. I like the dialogue and I like the lushness of the Lore factor. The dialogue between the protagonists in the first two Knights of Myth Drannor novels actually reminds me of Joss Whedon dialogue; witty, sexy and deadpan.
I actually find it the exact opposite (at least with regards to Firefly/Serenity; I haven't watched - don't intend to watch - Buffy and associated spin-offs). Dialogue in an average Greenwood novel, when it tries to be funny, strikes me as stilted, trying too hard, and overwrought - jokes are always dragged on past the point of funny, and most of the time they're not very funny to begin with. There's none of the succinct snappishness you see in Whedon.
Also, villains always say things "silkily" or in "dangerously soft" voices or something along that line (smilingly? Smoothly? The adverb abuse is such an eyesore). Ugh. Not enough rusty nails in the world to put through the eye.
Btw, since it still pertains to the topic at hand, and since nobody's seen fit to answer my question: how come Ed Greenwood's singled out for special editorial attention? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 23:25:49
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I find Ed's repartee refreshingly, openly human, unlike the glib self-referentiality so often passed off as 'cool' (sometimes by such as Joss). As for humour, nothing could be more personal. As before, transforming 'I don't find it funny' to 'it isn't funny' is solipsistic projection, like Amazon 'reviewers' who talk about 'the reader' when they mean 'I'.
Most other Realms authors aren't paid such close attention, and it just isn't so that 'almost any criticism leveled at his fiction is blamed on editors'. Are you questioning whether the known interventions to Ed's books occurred, or what?
As for your suggestion that his work should be editorially mutilated, words fail. |
Edited by - Faraer on 03 Oct 2008 23:31:17 |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 08:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I find Ed's repartee refreshingly, openly human, unlike the glib self-referentiality so often passed off as 'cool' (sometimes by such as Joss). As for humour, nothing could be more personal. As before, transforming 'I don't find it funny' to 'it isn't funny' is solipsistic projection, like Amazon 'reviewers' who talk about 'the reader' when they mean 'I'.
I find people who insist that you must bloat every single clause with "in my opinion" and "I don't find it ____" hilarious. I'm saying it; by implication, it is an opinion. And for that matter, regarding the funny, I did say "it strikes me as ___". Read more slowly, eh?
quote:
Most other Realms authors aren't paid such close attention, and it just isn't so that 'almost any criticism leveled at his fiction is blamed on editors'. Are you questioning whether the known interventions to Ed's books occurred, or what?
I'm questioning why he's "paid such close attention."
quote:
As for your suggestion that his work should be editorially mutilated, words fail.
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 09:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Have you tried reading any of his newest Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy? They are QUITE good.
Well I read - more or less - the two that are out there and they have me torn in two. Ed can definetely develop his characters in a novel, BUT these two novels are divided among "too many players". This reminds me of a cheap soap opera where you are totally confused when you dont know for sure which bad guy character is which one when youre seeing your first episode about halfway in the third year. Its realistic for such a political place as Cormyr, but its not really easy to read if you cant remember these detail while reading it. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 12:19:48
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| I think Ed's writing is an acquired taste (just like everything else.) His style certainly is unique among fantasy writers, which is a good thing. |
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ed greenwoods novels
