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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 16:42:04
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Inspired in another post about hours in the Realms, I caught this snippit from The Sage and found myself wondering:
“But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!”
What does hrast mean, and what manner of cursing takes place in the Realms? ...unique words and such, plus general oaths (for example, something like "Bhaal take thee!") and any other curious language would be interesting, I think.
In an article over at WotC (A Moment With Alusair), a young Princess Alusair was quoted as saying the following:
“Go ahead, Marladro. Swear like a Dragon! I know I often want to! In fact, let me help you: hrast, naed, and haularake! Let tluining Vangerdahast fall flat on his tluining tluin-staff, and break it right off! Let --”
What does naed or haularake translate to? No need to explain "tluin," I think I got that one from the context. 
Is there an official or even unofficial lexicon detailing a goodly amount of Realms specific words and phrases?
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Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 16:59:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Is there an official or even unofficial lexicon detailing a goodly amount of Realms specific words and phrases?
Not that I know of, but that's a great idea. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 17:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Inspired in another post about hours in the Realms, I caught this snippit from The Sage and found myself wondering:
“But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!”
Heh. I'm curious about where this bit came from, because I don't remember it.
quote:
What does hrast mean, and what manner of cursing takes place in the Realms? ...unique words and such, plus general oaths (for example, something like "Bhaal take thee!") and any other curious language would be interesting, I think.
From Ed:- "(non-deity-specific) damn! = hrast, hrammar (hur-RAST, hur-RAM-uh) [“hrammar” is southern]"
...
You'll find that Ed has covered this topic somewhat in the following replies:- March 25th, 2004. March 26th, 2004. March 28th, 2004. And May 14th, 2004. May 17th, 2004. Ed's April 12th 2004 reply will also prove useful... being a selection of temple sayings and religious-related "hard swearing" for the faithful of Tempus.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 18:05:54
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| Several of us have been working on Realms glossaries for years. It's a gigantic project. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36997 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 18:06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Inspired in another post about hours in the Realms, I caught this snippit from The Sage and found myself wondering:
“But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!”
Heh. I'm curious about where this bit came from, because I don't remember it.
Getting senile, my friend? It was part of your time post.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 20:30:07
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| My favorite is to the nine hells with you. which i use as a replacement for f you. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 21:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Several of us have been working on Realms glossaries for years. It's a gigantic project.
Sounds awesome. I wish some of you would share what you've got so far.  |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 21:59:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
My favorite is to the nine hells with you. which i use as a replacement for f you.
Given the Alusair quote in my first post, I think the common usage might be... tluin you? Of maybe get tluined? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 22:25:41
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| I like the curses Kemp uses: Dark. Dark and empty, man. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 23:49:55
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| Some of those swear words have struck me as not having any specific real-world equivalent (ie. I find myself just mentally filling in the swear word that "sounds right" to me). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 00:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Inspired in another post about hours in the Realms, I caught this snippit from The Sage and found myself wondering:
“But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!”
Heh. I'm curious about where this bit came from, because I don't remember it.
Getting senile, my friend? It was part of your time post.
Hey, aren't you actually older than me? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36997 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 01:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Inspired in another post about hours in the Realms, I caught this snippit from The Sage and found myself wondering:
“But that could take DARMAR, hrast it!”
Heh. I'm curious about where this bit came from, because I don't remember it.
Getting senile, my friend? It was part of your time post.
Hey, aren't you actually older than me?
Yes, but I'm not the one forgetting what I posted an hour earlier!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 12:13:03
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| Ooh, ooh! Start throwing some Realmsian cursing at each other... it'll sound inspired. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 13:21:57
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| Hrast is all, it looks like we can no longer rely on Sage's stlarning memory! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 09:58:52
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| I let my characters get inventive: "Poisonous paps of the Spider Queen!" and "By the seven secret sins of the Srinshee!" are two especially nice ones I have found my elf saying. Sometimes I take the cheesy way out, and he'll just say, "Rillifane H. Ralethil!" instead. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 13:55:56
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| Oath type swearing is cool and imaginative... but I'd really like to know more about the fictional curse words. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36997 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 15:09:36
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Well, here's some...
quote:
Faraer, you’re quite welcome -- and I’m looking forward to WRITING Volo’s Guide To The Moonsea, so I can bring you Old Gharauth's House of Butter Wrestling in all its, er, glory. :}
To tide you over on the swearing, here are just a few key words, with various regional variants given (I’ll leave the more colourful genitalia descriptors for the full piece):
(non-deity-specific) damn! = hrast, hrammar (hur-RAST, hur-RAM-uh) [“hrammar” is southern]
sh*t! = naeth, naed, orbal (NAY-thh, NAYdd, ORR-ball) [“orbal” is southern]
f*ck! = tluin (tuh-LOOO-in)
f*ck you/f*ck off = sabruin (sah-BROO-in)
Blushing yet, anyone? Naw, thought not.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 15:21:37
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I'll note that the bit from Ed that Wooly just quoted came from one the "So Saith Ed" replies that I referenced earlier.
Nerfed2Hell, I suggest you read those replies that I noted from Ed in my initial above post. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
767 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 18:57:37
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| Haularake! It seems someone—coo-jee?—stlarled though, since both it and "haularake" were described by our lovely hooded one, but it never made it into the compiled "So Saith Ed" PDF/HTML library. A Google/forum search should still reference the specific thread page though, so all is not lost (that's indeed how I found it in the first place). |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 22:39:59
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Wrong, they have to be cause they are in my files for the html/pdfs under May 9th, 2004. :) So, dunno, if they aren't there then that's weird because they are on my end.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Haularake! It seems someone—coo-jee?—stlarled though, since both it and "haularake" were described by our lovely hooded one, but it never made it into the compiled "So Saith Ed" PDF/HTML library. A Google/forum search should still reference the specific thread page though, so all is not lost (that's indeed how I found it in the first place).
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Wrong, they have to be cause they are in my files for the html/pdfs under May 9th, 2004. :) So, dunno, if they aren't there then that's weird because they are on my end.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Haularake! It seems someone—coo-jee?—stlarled though, since both it and "haularake" were described by our lovely hooded one, but it never made it into the compiled "So Saith Ed" PDF/HTML library. A Google/forum search should still reference the specific thread page though, so all is not lost (that's indeed how I found it in the first place).
Indeed. "Haularake" is referenced in all the files I have from Ed too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
767 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 11:17:38
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Kuje, I apologise. That entry is indeed in the archive. I wonder why Google did not list it, as I specifically searched with "haularake site:candlekeep.com". Possibly a setting on my side.  |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:59:43
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No worries. I was just concerned because as I said, they were in the files at least on my end and I was wondering if it was true that the text got misplaced. But good to know it is there!
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Kuje, I apologise. That entry is indeed in the archive. I wonder why Google did not list it, as I specifically searched with "haularake site:candlekeep.com". Possibly a setting on my side.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 16:35:20
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-In Elven:
Biir is a term that is translated into 'garbage/waste', and is used in the context of calling someone else garbage.
Dhaerow, we know, means ‘Face of Shadow/Traitor’, and is used in the context of equating someone to a Drow.
Filliken is a term that is translated into 'open skirt', and is used in the context of calling someone a prostitute.
Hahlorkh is a term that means 'Un-Elflike Butchers and Savages', and is used in the context of insulting another Elf.
Lorkh is a term that means '‘Savage Butchers who Lost Their Elven Nature Long Ago Through [savage] Behavior’, and is a grave insult to any Elf.
Saurot is a term that means 'Taint/Rot', and is normally used to refer to something that N'Tel'Quessir do to a lesser quality than Elves. A drink, for example, would be described this way. It can also be used to describe a person.
Vyshaan, as we know, means 'Power Mad', and is used to equate someone to the Vyshaanti, which is a grave and vile insult among Elves. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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evildmguy
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 17:51:52
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I tried to introduce some of the Realms curse phrases to my group, specifically 'stlarn' and a few others, and it didn't go over well. The reason, and I agree with it, is because they don't roll off the tongue very well. It's very cumbersome to try and yell, "Stlarn it!" because of the "stl" sound at the beginning.
I mention this as background because I have a hard time accepting the curse words mentioned here, canon or not.
quote:
To tide you over on the swearing, here are just a few key words, with various regional variants given (I’ll leave the more colourful genitalia descriptors for the full piece):
(non-deity-specific) damn! = hrast, hrammar (hur-RAST, hur-RAM-uh) [“hrammar” is southern]
sh*t! = naeth, naed, orbal (NAY-thh, NAYdd, ORR-ball) [“orbal” is southern]
f*ck! = tluin (tuh-LOOO-in)
f*ck you/f*ck off = sabruin (sah-BROO-in)
Blushing yet, anyone? Naw, thought not.
I did a quick search and found some history on phrases for cursing, but many of the multi word or multi phrase curses are more about being polite but still being able to curse in polite company. A look at current (American) English swear words has them all as short, one syllable words. Further, they are very easy to say and roll off the tongue.
I don't think that ANY of the above ones that I quoted are good curse words. They don't flow easily, given their multi syllables and clumsy pronunciation. It could be me but "tl", "aeth", and "aed" just don't have the same thing as f---, sh-- or even da-- for curse words. Further, the emphasis is on the second of three syllables in many cases and that's what you drag out. Nay (or NAAAAAAYYY if mad) is just no and adding the "th" at the end of that sounds weird. "Sah-BROOOOOOOOOOOOO-in" also doesn't flow very well.
I understand this is fantasy and I am NOT a language expert. It does seem to me, though, that as curse words, these don't work very well. Maybe 'frack' was already taken when Ed got around to this topic?
edg |
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evildmguy
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 17:58:32
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To be clear: I am not talking about phrases. I agree with phrases as a way to curse, say it politely and still have everyone meaning it.
What I am talking about is the short words used when you get hit or are angry. Words that flow off the tongue and sound angry as well. That's what I think "f---" has that "stlarn" doesn't. Saying "stlarn" out load, yelling it in anger or pain, doesn't work as well as "f---" does. It's just too cumbersome with that "stl".
"Cree" is better than "stlarn" because it flows nicely and it's obvious you hold the "e" at the end to extend it. What do you hold in "stlarn" to draw it out?
Just my opinion, of course.
edg |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 14:13:25
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Well, that is how you are used to profanity working in modern English, but it isn't how people swore 500 years ago, and it may well not be how people swear in the Realms.
Ed Greenwood covered a lot of this in his replies to queries over the years, and seemed to suggest his realms at least tend towards phrase-based rather than word-based profaning. Remember that at one point in time, even our heavy-hitting four-letter words were not obscene, just the name of that body-part, process or byproduct. |
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evildmguy
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 16:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Vangelor
Well, that is how you are used to profanity working in modern English, but it isn't how people swore 500 years ago, and it may well not be how people swear in the Realms.
Ed Greenwood covered a lot of this in his replies to queries over the years, and seemed to suggest his realms at least tend towards phrase-based rather than word-based profaning. Remember that at one point in time, even our heavy-hitting four-letter words were not obscene, just the name of that body-part, process or byproduct.
Actually, I don't think that is the case. On LJ, I am in a group called word ancestry and it covered curse words a while back. Now, I am not saying this is a final word but the poster does do their homework.
bugger - (and ed does use some historical English slang curse words) is still used today and started as slang for 'heretic' back in the 12th century.
bloody - (again English) was used as far back as the 16th century.
c**t - used as far back as the 1200s, usually as a street name for where prostitutes gathered.
sh** - Very old curse word! The idea of it goes back to old German but probably not documented until 1600s.
f**k - The source I have says it's only documented back to the 1600s but that's because they can find evidence of it being purged from dictionaries before then because it was so vulgar! There are forms of it in high German and Latin, suggesting it's quite old.
I don't have it in front of me but I have a history book (Medieval Underground) that lists a lot of street names that described what happened. Slut street, slit avenue, etc. at least in Paris during the Middle Ages. I don't remember all of them but it would not have been accepted by the nobles at the time.
Checking wikipedia, again not the final word, for Latin cursing has the equivalent to many of the words that I listed above, some coming straight to English!
The idea that it is phrase based is usually what the nobility would do. They wouldn't want to debase themselves by using the common person's cursing. So, they used phrases instead.
What I am talking about, though, are adventurers. If they are in a life and death situation, I don't see an adventurer say a nice phrase in the heat of battle. They would curse with what breath they have!
My point was, and still is, that the "official" curse words don't work well because of their pronunciation. I have been trying to do things for my group to make the Realms "feel" like the Realms. At least to have its own flavor. But, these words, when presented to my group, didn't work for them.
I was hoping there had been a compilation such that I could introduce other words as well but curse words seemed a "fun" thing to try and introduce right away. Does anyone have a compilation they are willing to share?
edg |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 16:46:51
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Realms oaths, not being Germanic, don't sound Germanic, like those words. Look no further than French to hear another example of what swearing can sound like.
In battle, expelling your breath in harsh plosives isn't a good idea, realistically, either. But this is an imaginary world of swashbuckling swords and sorcery.
'Stlarn' sounds, and is, spluttery; it conveys exasperation. Of course you can make up your own oaths, but they won't sound Realmsian if they aren't formed like other Thorass-derived words. |
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evildmguy
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 16:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Realms oaths, not being Germanic, don't sound Germanic, like those words. Look no further than French to hear another example of what swearing can sound like.
In battle, expelling your breath in harsh plosives isn't a good idea, realistically, either. But this is an imaginary world of swashbuckling swords and sorcery.
'Stlarn' sounds, and is, spluttery; it conveys exasperation. Of course you can make up your own oaths, but they won't sound Realmsian if they aren't formed like other Thorass-derived words.
Okay, than GIVE me French swear words. Or Russian (with pronunciation). Or Greek. Or whatever. Or tell me what a typical Realms swordsman yells when he does an attack.
Or, give me curse words that people will use because my players laughed at all of the canon words that I sent to them. If that's what gives the Realms it's "flavor" then it won't happen that way.
I'm sorry if I am exasperated but your response didn't "tell" me anything or prove any point. It just said "you're wrong" without any backing for any of your points. It's very tough for me to accept it without anything else.
edg |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 19:14:22
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I'm not saying 'You're wrong' or trying to prove any point, I'm saying 'Your thinking is overlooking these other facts,' and they are facts; you can look up French swearing online as well as I can (e.g. here). As for how this works in Faerûn, pick up the Knights of Myth Drannor novels. A Faerûnian swordsman, if he says anything, is going to shout some battle cry, or warning to his comrades, not any kind of swear word.
OK, your players aren't in tune with how people speak in the Realms. Either don't push it or seek out more examples of how it's done. |
Edited by - Faraer on 05 Oct 2008 19:23:23 |
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Realmsian cursing and other language
