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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 01:11:03
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Ok this question came up in my forgotten realms group and brought on a huge debate which is still going on right now so i will put it to the people in the know and see what u all think of it.
Is having or making a golem considered slavery?
To kinda explain when making a golem one binds elementals against their will to give the golem its will. from what ive seen of the elementals stats they have intelligence just like any other life form so knowing that does binding one into to a golem for any length to time considered slavery or make the person doing so an evil person and how does that work for the good wizards in the realms that make use of golems like elminster or the seven sisters if it is considered slavery>
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 02:05:28
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Hmm, the original golem was created to defend the faith. Even in that it could be considered a binding, forced duty. So yes it certainly can be slavery, just like summon animal forces the animal to serve.
The real question before you is it an Evil act I believe.
Slavery has taken many forms in history, some in which even slaves had rights, not full rights as a citizen but still rights. Often the game protrays the worst of slavery where the slave had no rights.
There have been examples of people choosing to acept a type of slavery, indentured servent for example, as a way to improve their life.
In the end it is your call as to how Evil slavery is or the calling on powers causes a slavery condition. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 24 Sep 2008 03:33:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 06:13:43
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I don't think it's ever been stated, though, that the elemental spirit animating a golem is the same type of elemental spirit that shows up when you cast summon elemental. It's entirely possible that the spirit summoned isn't one that has free will. It's also possible that there are other factors involved...
In Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's Rose of the Prophet trilogy, each of Sularin's gods had a host of immortals that served them. Each deity picked how their immortals would serve them, and what form their immortals would take. So one deity would have imps, one would have a hierarchy of angels, and another would have a loose collection of djinn and efreeti.
So as an alternate idea, on the elemental planes, there could be something like that going on. The spirits summoned to animate golems could be low-ranking spirits, consigned to serve mortals by their superiors, either as a way of proving themselves, a way of gaining experience, or as a form of punishment. Depending on how it's set up, the summoned spirits could be eager to get the chance to be in a golem, because it moves them up the ladder once they get home. Having a system like this would also explain why the planar lords allow these (and related summonings) to happen, rather than showing up and smashing mages and clerics for constantly poaching away their servants. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 10:50:31
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What a wonderful idea Wooly. Consider that uh . . . borrowed  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 15:36:52
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| Hmmm, do all golems involve using "spirits"? I thought they were usually just machines ("constructs"). If they are animated machines, how is making and using them "slavery"? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Sep 2008 15:37:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 15:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hmmm, do all golems involve using "spirits"? I thought they were usually just machines ("constructs"). If they are animated machines, how is making and using them "slavery"?
They are constructs, but traditional D&D golems are animated by binding into them an elemental spirit -- in 2E, it was a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth.
Since the spirit is being summoned from elsewhere, bound into a shell, and then forced to follow someone else's orders, it's easy to see it as slavery.
My approach keeps the involvement of the elemental spirit, but dodges the unwilling servitude aspect of it. That was something that had crossed my mind in the past.
All that said, I don't really see any reason that golem animation would have to involve an elemental spirit, other than it being an artifact of earlier versions of the game (and likely, in place because of TSR's Code of Ethics and fear of the religious folk). You could argue that it's necessary to bind some spirit -- any kind -- just to provide some intelligence, but I think that comes down to DM preference. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
If they are animated machines, how is making and using them "slavery"?
Didn't we already watch this episode of Star Trek?
No.
But I appreciate the feedback on my post. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:55:04
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| If you go to the extreme you might have some people take a stance as extremist vegetarians might and condemn the keeping of even "lower intelligence" life forms (spirits forced into golems). Extremists can easily turn violent of course ... |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 17:56:30
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As in D&D there are sentient plants, vegetarians aren't exactly holding the 'high moral ground' 
Unless they give up eating altogether! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 18:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
Unless they give up eating altogether!
Ring of sustenance baby! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 03:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
If they are animated machines, how is making and using them "slavery"?
Didn't we already watch this episode of Star Trek?
No.
But I appreciate the feedback on my post.
I believe this was in reference to Data, the android, winning sentinal rights as a thinking machine. Data won the right to control own life, something a golem has not won. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 03:44:40
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There are elemental spirits that are the equivalent of animals, but they are living elementals. So depending on how you feel about binding a non-sentient but still living bundle of elemental energy, it does seem to be different than, say, binding a fully self aware elder elemental, for example.
So I guess in this case, the elemental bound to the golem is something like a hamster running around in a wheel to provide animate force for the golem in question.
Er . . . hope Wooly isn't offended . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
There are elemental spirits that are the equivalent of animals, but they are living elementals. So depending on how you feel about binding a non-sentient but still living bundle of elemental energy, it does seem to be different than, say, binding a fully self aware elder elemental, for example.
True. One could argue that if using a non-sentient elemental is wrong, than any kind of animal husbandry (even such that doesn't involve killing and eating said animals) is wrong, too, and slavery.
PS: Kentinal, thanks for the information about Data. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by arry
Unless they give up eating altogether!
Ring of sustenance baby!
Doh!  |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 22:20:16
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Anyway, the golems are mindless so those alemental forces are just as mindless. Their sole comprehension of relity is what you tell them..
Anyway, on vegetarians...
There were those intresting planescape sects ... one of vegetarians, but another "protectors of the wyld" -basically, let meatthings eat eachother and leave the greeney alone! ;)
Oh yeah and the leather babes... |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2008 : 06:48:12
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As a DM I might rule that the term "elemental spirit" does not imply a consciousness.
A prime example is Salvatore's Gwenhwyvar. During her creation she was intended only to be a spirit, golem-like in her use, but instead she is a unique being with thoughts, feelings and ideas.
In other words, enslavement means to undo the will of a living creature. Commanding a golem to do something cannot be considering enslavement as the golem never had the compulsion to do otherwise. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 21:31:08
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| Actually both the nimblewight and the helmed horror have intelligence and i know the nimblewight uses a water spirit, not sure what the helmed horror uses though. So when u start to look around there are a quite a few constructs that are given intelligence with spirits, so how would u view those those? |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:54:12
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| If it can be said that a nimblewright or a helmed horror could have desires beyond its basic nature (like an animal), then any compulsion made on it would be indeed, evil. However, splitting hairs so finely then brings us to the question of whether or not basic hypnotism would be considered as such... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:02:50
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| My first and last thought on it is that if the golem has an intelligence score of 3 or higher (the min for intelligent life) then it is slavery, and if it has a 2 or lower then it is not slavery. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 06:02:55
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One could possibly make the argument that a spirit or creature might be intelligent enough to understand language and perform commands, even complex ones, but lack some important quality necessary to endow "personhood". Three important candidates for such qualities spring to mind 1) sapience, i.e. being self aware, 2) sentience, i.e. being able to "feel" and thus suffer, and/or 3) possessing a soul, that ineffable faculty that allows us to make moral determinations, recognize right from wrong and choose to do good or evil. I don't know if any one of these in themselves is necessary or sufficient to grant "rights" or evaluate a condition of slavery, and there may be others I haven't thought of, but it is at least a starting point.
For instance, can an ox pulling a plow be considered a slave? Is it immoral to use oxen? PETA might think so. Your typical farmer would not. An ox is perhaps sentient, at least in the sense that it is aware of its environment, can be trained and taught simple commands, has simple emotions and can feel pain (the bar for sentience is pretty low) but it is not sapient or "self-aware". It cannot ponder its condition, or have hopes, or feel guilt or make moral decisions. If an elemental spirit were like a very smart ox, it might not be considered slavery to bind them into a golem.
Or consider rather if an elemental spirit is more like an operating system, or software engine. The software in video games can "animate" characters, have them run around and shoot guns, or even engage in trade, gossip and other very complex behaviors. This is much like what an elemental spirit does. A software program can be very smart, but it is not sentient, it does not "feel", it cannot suffer, and thus no one has moral qualms about blowing away characters in a video game.
But if an elemental spirit is aware of its condition, and objects to it, or suffers because of it, then it is a serious question to consider whether binding that spirit counts as enslavement. Just because you can do a thing doesn't make it a right thing to do.
I suppose it would be possible, as has been suggested above, to have an elemental spirit that qualifies for "personhood" but that likes to serve, or at least doesn't object to servitude, because that kind of service is deeply ingrained as part of its nature. In that respect, it might not be morally wrong to utilize them for their natural purpose so long as you don't abuse them.
In 4e I believe they have introduced a concept called the "animus" (or is it the "anima"?) which is separate from the "soul". This animus is the vital spark that empowers conscious movement to any animated object or undead or other "animate" creature. A critter can be animate but not have a soul. Thus you can have skeletons and zombies that are animated but have no souls. But vampires and liches would be examples of undead with souls (I think). In 4e the soul doesn't animate the body but is analagous to the "mind." If the animating spirit of a golem is more akin to what imparts movement to a zombie or skeleton, then I think one could feel morally justifiable in using a golem without worrying about promulgating slavery.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
3) possessing a soul, that ineffable faculty that allows us to make moral determinations, recognize right from wrong and choose to do good or evil.
Actually that's the brain.
Although, I can concede that with fantasy creatures things might be different. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Oct 2008 14:15:40 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 08:17:46
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We are talking golems and animating spirits and you are playing the science card? 
Obviously golems and spirits don't have brains (I think...) at least not in the conventional way we think of them.
I am not advocating for the existence of a soul. Some people believe though that souls exist. Souls are said to live beyond death, in the absence of a body, so the soul cannot be part of the brain. Although, perhaps it resides there when it is inhabiting a body. I don't profess to be an expert.
Some people have defined the soul as the organ which informs our moral character, allows us to distinguish and choose between right and wrong. I have no special knowledge as to whether they are correct in their definition. If one does not believe in the soul, one might ascribe that function to the brain.
But if one is concerned about golem civil rights, I think it important to at least consider whether souls exist (within the context of the metaphysics of the Forgotten Realms) and if so whether golems possess them or not. And to consider further still if possession of a soul would then be enough to invest a golem with certain natural rights from a philosophical point of view.
So actually no, not the brain. |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 13:29:27
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If someone were to require elementals of higher intelligence to craft golems, it may balm the souls of goodly PCs to bargain with said elemental for their service instead of simply binding it and going on their merry way. Such agreements would be, as noted earlier, a form of indentured service. (If someone already mentioned this, my apologies!)
(But Weis' and Hickman's Rose of the Prophet rocked! Thanks for the reminder, WR! ) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
We are talking golems and animating spirits and you are playing the science card?
Well, you did say:
"possessing a soul, that ineffable faculty that allows us to make moral determinations, recognize right from wrong and choose to do good or evil."
Also, did you read my last statement in that post?
There's more to be said about this subject, but this is not the appropriate place for that.
quote:
And to consider further still if possession of a soul would then be enough to invest a golem with certain natural rights from a philosophical point of view.
In order to give an answer to that, I'd first need to find out what the effective difference is between a person who has a "soul" and a person who doesn't. Perhaps later I'll ask Ed Greenwood.
In the meantime, I would contend that if a person (or construct, or whatever) meets the three "requirements" you mentioned (with number three being the capacity to make moral decisions), they probably should be granted rights and not be kept as slaves even if they do not possess a soul.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Oct 2008 20:34:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 21:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
What a wonderful idea Wooly. Consider that uh . . . borrowed
I agree, with a little 'tweaking' - perhaps the beings that are 'in-charge' of these 'lesser spirits' gain a foothold in the mortal world with the amount of their underlings summoned there?
Food for thought - it would work similar to worshippers; the more a god or Archfiend has on the Prime, the more of his will he can extend there.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I believe this was in reference to Data, the android, winning sentinal rights as a thinking machine. Data won the right to control own life, something a golem has not won.
The 'Pinnochio' Syndrome was used in the original series (Spock), and later in Voyager. I think the idea evolved with each presentation, and the last was the most advanced - if a Hologram can think for itself, should it not have freedom as well?
Several of the episodes dealt with this subject matter, and an entire race of (accidentally) created, self-willed Holograms became 'freedom fighters' - the Doctor even joined with them for a time, and attempted to free some of his 'lesser' kin in yet another episode.
At what point do we draw the line? If a whale or Dolphin has an intelligence equal to man, then should killing one be murder? If so, what about Simians? They feel, think, and have emotions... why would harming one simply be considered "cruelty to animals"?
This happens to be a VERY deep question, even though the origianl post was merely asking for an opinion of D&D constructs.
And what of Eberron's Warforged? Weren't they slaves, even though they were created to that purpose? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2008 22:36:42 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 22:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At what point do we draw the line? If a whale or Dolphin has an intelligence equal to man, then should killing one be murder? If so, what about Sapiens? They feel, think, and have emotions... why would harming one simply be considered "cruelty to animals"?
Which animals are you talking about, btw? I did a search on "sapiens", and the only animal I found referenced was homo sapiens. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 01:40:53
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| I meant primates... sorry. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 08:46:09
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Of course, "sapients" (with the t) is a general term referring to all intelligent creatures, hypothetical extraterrestrials included... so the term still almost works. Far better than it works for humankind, anyway... "homo sapiens" literally means "wise man"... and everything we do as a species seems directed at disproving this appellation. That's why I spend so much time here... Earth is a scary, scary place, and our species makes it that way. As Bill Watterson once said in "Calvin and Hobbes": "Sometimes I think that the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
[edit] Back on topic... it's only cruelty if the golem is intelligent (like the warforged from Eberron, which are very cool creations; I imported them into my Realms almost immediately after picking up the Eberron campaign setting for 3.5. I use very little else from Eberron, but the warforged alone were worth the price of the book, imho). Standard golems are not intelligent, but are magically imbued with the ability to obey orders (which has nothing at all to do with intelligence). |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 04 Oct 2008 08:47:17 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:44:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I meant primates... sorry.
It's OK, it makes sense now. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 22:59:56
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In the 2e book The Inner Planes, it's said that on the planes the elementals are just as smart as humans, but when they're summoned to the Prime they become "mindless brutes." This would imply that the very process of pulling an elemental from its home reduces its intelligence. No mention is made about what happens when the elementals come back to their home, but my guess would be that their Int goes back to normal.
This arguably makes any kind of elemental summoning evil, in that it strips intelligence from those summoned. Not that that's stopped countless generations of summoners. On the other hand, you wouldn't know this unless you've travelled the Wheel and actually met elementals in their home, which opens up the whole "is it evil is you don't know it's evil?" can of worms.
Relating this to the OP, you could logically extrapolate that removing an elemental from their home in any way robs them of most or all of their intelligence. That doesn't solve the moral question of creating golems, but rather broadens it to include all methods of summoning. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 01:49:54
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| Interestingly, this contradicts both 1st and 3rd edition lore which states that there are elemental "animals" and other less intelligent lifeforms in the Inner Planes. Of course, there were fewer varieties of elementals is earlier editions of the game that could be summoned. |
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Golems slavery or no?
