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Wyvernspur
Acolyte
15 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2008 : 04:24:33
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Since Wizards seems intent on killing of deities(though as we know from Planescape no God is truly dead their just big islands in the astral plane waiting to be resurrected or built into Githyanki castles)
What are some Gods that we would like to see nixed and Why?
I vote for half the nature gods there are way to many of them.
Eldath, Milekki(Spelling?), Oghama, Chantea, plus half a dozen I can't name seem to be filling the same roles repetitively. Plus considering the Druid population that worships "Nature" why are there so many of these deities? It should be survival of the fittest no?
What God or gods would you get rid of? or have gotten rid of in you campaigns?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 05:11:43
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I'd love to see Cyric go. I can't stand him.
And I'd like to see Shar powered down. With all the supposed complaints about Mystra, it's ironic that Wizards has been doing with Shar what they were accused of doing with Mystra. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 May 2008 05:13:10 |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 06:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wyvernspur
I vote for half the nature gods there are way to many of them.
Eldath, Milekki(Spelling?), Oghama, Chantea, plus half a dozen I can't name seem to be filling the same roles repetitively. Plus considering the Druid population that worships "Nature" why are there so many of these deities? It should be survival of the fittest no?
Here's my two cents worth:
The presence of many "nature" gods isn't a problem for me. It's a problem perhaps if one views nature as a single thing, as apposed to a complex set of interrelated systems. After all, one could use the same argument to claim that there are too many "evil" gods. Why do we need separate gods for murder, poison, torture, deception, intrigue, destruction, war, etc.? They are all just expressions of the same drive for selfish gain.
For me, the multiplicity of gods reflects the complex and sometimes paradoxical nature of the Realms reality. It also reflects the fractious nature of human religion in our own reality. Having said all that, I have to admit that it's often hard to keep track of which is which.
Cheers,
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 07:46:20
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Kelemvor - get rid of him and Cyric, let Gargauth assume part of Cyric's portfolio
Loviatar - a pointless goddess, seems to exist purely as a means to fulfill a DM's leather fetish, not well integrated with Realm's mythology
Velsharoon - I just dislike Lich god's, I have no logical reason for removing him (just turn Savrass evil and erase Velsharoon)
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 12:24:15
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| Given the amount of nature in FR I'd say it makes total sense to have at least as many nature gods as "civilized" gods. My problem comes in the way the gods are portrayed, nature gods typically seem too refined and civilized for my tastes. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 12:46:38
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| I would like Myrkul back .. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 13:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
I would like Myrkul back ..
Myrkul likes where Myrkul's at, why you gotta be messin with my boy? 
But seriously, he's all sorts of plot hook right now. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 14:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
I would like Myrkul back ..
Myrkul likes where Myrkul's at, why you gotta be messin with my boy?
But seriously, he's all sorts of plot hook right now.
Indeed. Myrkul works so much better as a plot hook. As a deity, he was just another "Ooh, death is scary!" cliché.
That's a lot of why I don't like Cyric. To me, he comes across as just another cliché. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 15:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
I would like Myrkul back ..
Well, he hasn't really left. Though, what's left of Myrkul himself doesn't seem to want to be a deity again. This was explicitly stated in the City of Splendors boxed set:-
"Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction)."
I don't think it's really any surprise that Myrkul "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be.
As it is... I do like the idea of Myrkul in this state. If I had followed the path of the ToT in my campaign, 'tis likely this version of Myrkul would indeed be a part of my FR. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 16:10:34
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The original pre-Time of Trouble gods would fit me nicely. Finder could also be taken out and Moander be placed back.
In general I would prefer more gods. Minor divinities of places, plants, animals etc A larger number of cultural pantheons would fit me nicely, but that has never been a large part of the Realms and would be a huge retcon. Therefore I leave that one for the home campaign. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:17:25
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Gods that should die? Meh, in my opinion, none. Some gods interest me more than others, but even if I couldn't find a good use for a god (or didn't want to), someone else would, and I wouldn't want to be the one to take such an opportunity away from them.
I do believe that there tends to be a "god of the moment" that receives undue focus in the published sourcebooks. I believe Shar is currently the evil deity of the moment, but that doesn't mean I wish she would be killed off in the official setting--it just means I'd love it if she was deemphasized.
I must acknowledge, however, that such perceptions are probably a bit biased--that is, if a god I truly love receives too much attention in relation to other gods of the setting, odds are I would not notice or be bothered by it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 May 2008 19:18:58 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:18:55
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...since his name popped up: I'm quite happy with Kelemvor as a "God of death and against undeath" (if you catch my meaning). Here are a few reasons, sorry if I go a bit off topic with it...
1) He is a great god for undead-hunters. Sure, all sorts of good-aligned gods like Lathander fit in that role, their clergy would gladly go and fight vampires and liches. But I like the idea of the god of death being opposed to undead. ...which leads to point the 2nd:
2) Kelemvor breaks the cliché of Myrkul and Cyric, as both were gods of death and undeath.
3) Faiths & Avatars (2e) states that a lot of Kelemvor's clergy are former Myrkulites. Think about what this implies: These are the guys who a few years back were creating undead - and now they have to change their outlook 180° if they want stay in the good books of their god!  I think they make a good part of his faithful, since Kelemvor is a very young deity and only a few faithful have become clerics,priests or paladins since his apotheosis. That leaves us with a church in an extremely interesting situation: The old and powerful clerics come from a path that's completely opposed to the present dogma and have an intimate knowledge of their enemies (higher undead), while the new ones are likely to be priests of lower levels but without "clean slate".
4) I can't say exactly where it was stated (somewhere in F&A, I guess), but there was a statement that only "higher undead" are to be hunted down and laid to rest - mindless undead like skeletons (and zombies?) are not really "good", but can be seen as a minor evil. Without much of a stretch you can say that it's OK to use them as means towards the end. I can easily see this as the result of the majority of the clergy being ex-Myrkulites: They don't want to give up all of their old views and habits and got the use of minor undead accepted within the church. If you read the novel "Finder's Bane", you'll see how much influence clerics can have on their church's dogma and thus on their god, especially if the clergy is smaller than usual. Granted, Finder's clergy is an extreme example (only two(!) priests at the time of the novel), but that doesn't invalidate the point.
...in short: Kelemvor's church is provides very interesting possibilities for religious intrigues as well as nice hooks for undead-themed campaigns. Nuff said.  |
Edited by - tauster on 02 May 2008 19:26:30 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:42:07
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...back to topic:
I don't see why it is so hard to highlight the gods they like and just ignore the ones they don't like. Killing the "bad gods" doesn't create more content on the "good gods". It only leaves the setting poorer. So rather than killing off deities the designers don't like (for whatever reasons... I try to avoid a rant here *takes a deeeeep breath*), they should start to give us more details on the ones they like.
Of course, in the best of all possiblem publishing worlds, they would leave the pantheon largely untouched or at least consult with the FR experts like Ed and ask what deity he would kill off. I am not totally against deicide, but not on a yearly basis or en masse. The death of a god can make a great adventure, just like saving a god. See 2e's "For Duty and Deity" as an example of a great "rescue a goddess"-adventure. In the best of all publishing worlds, they would take stock on what has been printed on the different churches, decide which church is a) how much important to the realms and b) is the least detailed one. Then they would work their way down that to-do-list and present us one church after the other in detail. They wouldn't even have work very much on that task since Ed has already all that stuff. Just ask him for his notes and typewrite it! |
Edited by - tauster on 02 May 2008 19:45:16 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
...in short: Kelemvor's church is provides very interesting possibilities for religious intrigues as well as nice hooks for undead-themed campaigns. Nuff said.
Well done, Tauster. An eloquent illustration of Rinonalyrna's point. One woman's junk is another woman's treasure. With lots of gods, there are endless possibilities
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:48:13
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quote:
4) I can't say exactly where it was stated (somewhere in F&A, I guess), but there was a statement that only "higher undead" are to be hunted down and lais to rest - mindless undead like skeletons (and zombies?) are not really "good", but can be seen as a minor evil, and without much of a stretch used as means towards the end.
Well, there's also the classic "benevolent ghost" (or at least, non-evil), used in many stories including stories set in the Realms. I like how the 4E preview books address that particular contradiction regarding undead (ie. "Undead are supposedly powered by evil energy, but not all undead are evil"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Well done, Tauster. An eloquent illustration of Rinonalyrna's point. One woman's junk is another woman's treasure. With lots of gods, there are endless possibilities
Afet
Exactly. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 19:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
...back to topic:
I don't see why it is so hard to highlight the gods they like and just ignore the ones they don't like. Killing the "bad gods" doesn't create more content on the "good gods". It only leaves the setting poorer. So rather than killing off deities the designers don't like (for whatever reasons... I try to avoid a rant here *takes a deeeeep breath*), they should start to give us more details on the ones they like.
I totally agree with you...100%. However, the designers (the ones who matter, here) believe that the number of deities in the setting are so numerous that they serve as a obstacle that prevents people from really getting into the setting (ie. "People are intimidated by the amount of information they think they need to absorb in order to use the setting"). The same rationale seems to be the driving other changes to the setting as well--streamlining and simplification is the goal, here.
It's also possible that some (if not all) of the designers don't merely believe that is a perception, but that it is truth--there are too many gods in the setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 20:05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Loviatar - a pointless goddess, seems to exist purely as a means to fulfill a DM's leather fetish, not well integrated with Realm's mythology
Well, that happens when people only read half the dogma and goddess' description and leave other important parts out of the equation.
Lady of Pain is a novel that goes a long way telling people how Loviatar's faith could also be looked at.
Essentially, she suffers the same prejeduces as Eilistraee and Ilmater. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 02 May 2008 20:07:29 |
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Robspieree
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 21:08:21
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Rquote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Loviatar - a pointless goddess, seems to exist purely as a means to fulfill a DM's leather fetish, not well integrated with Realm's mythology
Why is it that fetishes are always demonized?
Rob |
Friends are the family we choose. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 21:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
the designers ... believe that ... "People are intimidated by the amount of information they think they need to absorb in order to use the setting".
That was certainly my experience when I recently introduced myself to the Realms after a 20 year absence from D&D. I think it's a feeling that long time Realms fans do not understand; it's a bit like flying into a new city on a different continent for the first time. It's exciting but also intimidating.
I think the solution, however, is not to eliminate complexity by turning a beautiful and complex place into a simplified Disney version of itself, but to give the newbie a good orientation package, a good place to start and reassurance that they do not need to know everything right away.
But WoftC knows that many potential Realms consumers are like tourists who prefer the cheesy simplicity and security of going to resorts in Cancun rather than experiencing the complexity, beauty and insecurity of the real Mexico. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 02 May 2008 23:12:54 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 00:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
It's also possible that some (if not all) of the designers don't merely believe that is a perception, but that it is truth--there are too many gods in the setting.
As always, 'too many' is meaningless without clarifying for what purpose. Realms-2008 is not a setting in the sense that Ed's Realms is; what you want in a full-scale, open-ended world like a Faerûn or Flanaess may differ from what you want in a novelty short-run boutique settingette like a Zakhara or Polyhedron's alternate-Spelljammer. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 02:47:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I think the solution, however, is not to eliminate complexity by turning a beautiful and complex place into a simplified Disney version of itself, but to give the newbie a good orientation package, a good place to start and reassurance that they do not need to know everything right away.
Absolutely. Brilliant point. WOTC has acted as if the only choices are to put out books that are crammed with lore with little explanation on how to utilize the setting, or to strip everything detailed out of the setting and make a pale shadow of itself, so that its "easier" to deal with.
I hate to keep using this as an example, but Paizo's Pathfinder line has really tapped into the idea of introducing a setting in a "user friendly" way. Each adventure path has a Player's Guide to explain what a PC from the starting region would know. They also have a gazetteer that is a "quick overview" of the setting, with a more detailed campaign setting coming out.
WOTC should have really explored some of these options before deciding that continuity and detail are too hard to maintain, at least in my opinion.
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TheArchPriest
Acolyte
Brazil
14 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 04:34:22
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All of them (including Ao) except Kossuth...
Joking of course
Seriously now:
Cyric beacuse he is a crazy idiot,Eldath because she is too inocent and foolish,I would say Lathander but he seems to become Amaunator so ok,Torm because a weak god like him killed Bane and because he steals worshippers from Tyr and Helm,Kelemvor because he persecutes undead,Shar because I don't like her
Ressurections:
Myrkul is one the best of all gods,Bhaal nice god |
Black Flame Zealot
Influent Kossuthan Cleric
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Wyvernspur
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 05:01:07
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There is another good question
Which Gods should be brought back?
Also whatever happened to the deity's power = number of followers thing from AO? Seems like some Gods are a lot more power than their worshipper base would indicate.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 05:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wyvernspur
There is another good question
Which Gods should be brought back?
Also whatever happened to the deity's power = number of followers thing from AO? Seems like some Gods are a lot more power than their worshipper base would indicate.
Of the fallen deities, I would like to see Auppenser come all the way back. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 May 2008 06:00:44 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 15:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by TheArchPriest
All of them (including Ao) except Kossuth...
Joking of course
Seriously now:
Cyric beacuse he is a crazy idiot,Eldath because she is too inocent and foolish,I would say Lathander but he seems to become Amaunator so ok,Torm because a weak god like him killed Bane and because he steals worshippers from Tyr and Helm,Kelemvor because he persecutes undead,Shar because I don't like her.
Wow! Slash and burn! You're deadly with the pruning shears, young man.
Maybe there's an opening for you at WotC 
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 03 May 2008 15:48:41 |
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TheArchPriest
Acolyte
Brazil
14 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 19:54:19
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Ohh and I forgot Moander!
He is good for CE lunatics that like rotten things!
Lolth must die too,and Nobanion he is silly,and Ulutiu because he sleeps too much,and half of the Mulhorandi gods...
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Wow! Slash and burn! You're deadly with the pruning shears, young man.
Maybe there's an opening for you at WotC
Afet
Hehehe...I'l take that as a compliment... |
Black Flame Zealot
Influent Kossuthan Cleric
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Edited by - TheArchPriest on 03 May 2008 20:12:58 |
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Athairgi_the_Child-Eater
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 20:23:20
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...Powers brought back?
Hmm... What do you think about Murdane, Helm's lover? |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 20:39:18
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Resurrecting Murdane would not be practical.
quote:
Originally posted by Athairgi_the_Child-Eater
...Powers brought back?
Hmm... What do you think about Murdane, Helm's lover?
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Athairgi_the_Child-Eater
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 23:41:25
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| ...Motivation? |
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Topic |
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Gods that Should have died
