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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 21:58:00
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What I'm curious about is why is the hidden city of hope still a hidden city in 4E with thousands of misplaced dark elves from the underdark in need of a home? ( isint it kind of there birth right? ) Are we going to hear more about the city? Since they don't look anything like drow are the dark elves going to have to deal with the same prejudices?
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 22:34:37
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it stated only the pure of heart will find it, which means non evil chars will find it.
and not all the dark elves are good. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:11:19
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| I'd still like to read about it in more detail. The 4E book is just so vague. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:39:21
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Thats an Understatement.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
Since they don't look anything like drow are the dark elves going to have to deal with the same prejudices?
When the vast majority of human meetings with drow are occasions of slaughter and terror, including probably all of those you've heard of, it's not prejudice to suppose that a given drow or group of drow are enemies of human life, any more than it is to be afraid of what appears to be a bomb (which might fail to go off, or just might be a harmless electronic device).
I think it's quite tasteless to equate this with any kind of human xenophobia. |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:55:34
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| Ha ha ha ha ha ha. good point but a great deal of humans never gave Eilistraee's faithful a chance. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 00:32:03
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| You'll learn more about the current status of Rhymanthiin in the upcoming Dragon article, Ecology of the Sharn. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 00:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You'll learn more about the current status of Rhymanthiin in the upcoming Dragon article, Ecology of the Sharn.
Oooooooooh.
*intigued*.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 00:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
it stated only the pure of heart will find it, which means non evil chars will find it.
And here's a little more from Sage Schend, on the subject of entering Rhymanthiin:-
"Last question first--it was my intention that this was to be even more egalitarian and shared than MD was. Whether or not it lives up to its promise depends on what WotC does with it.
As the bulk of the folk in the Realms who know of the city's existence are affiliated with the Moonstars or three prominent temples, one could expect to be recruited by any of them or their agents. If they're accepted as "suitable for entry," they'll be escorted toward the city.
All that's visible to those not attuned to it are the roads and towers. The walls that encircle the city are not visible, but their foundations are visible as a circular road to which the nine roads are attached. Folks can walk on that road and on the plant-filled land inside it (even though that's technically where the city is) because Rhymanthiin isn't entirely in phase with the material world.
First time entry is allowed only if you're in contact with someone who is accepted by the city (but holding someone hostage to force your way in doesn't work) or if the city itself accepts you on her own (It's my opinion that the city has a mild sentience/spirit of its own; whether that's part of the sharnmind that's part of the city's substance, a touch of Danthra the Dreamer, or something else entirely is left open.) Escorting by sharn, a kiira that's part of the Highfire Crown, or by someone holding a hopeblade are all valid.
As for the Paragon path, I don't know enough about it to say. If someone was a paladin interested in gaining and sharing knowledge, there's always a chance he could try and make a speech or appeal to the empty air at the center circle. Someone in the city might take pity on that person and bring them in, or the city itself might possibly expose her gate and allow entry. (But it's not likely someone could approach that point unnoticed/unescorted by the elves, halflings, and centaurs on patrol.)
Here's an important point--Unless you're going to tie your character to a life commanding a defensive garrison, managing its resources, and scheduling patrols and scouting parties, you're not getting your hands on a hopeblade. There are nine in existence, and all nine are claimed by the commanders of the towers that protect Rhymanthiin and her territories. The only one currently named is the Ilbaereth in charge of Tor Asuor. They are powerful blades and they have named heirs determined by the wielder, but their use is meant exclusively for Rhymanthiin.
Steven" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 04:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You'll learn more about the current status of Rhymanthiin in the upcoming Dragon article, Ecology of the Sharn.
Nice tease! Can't wait.
P.S. where are those gen con images? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 16:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
and not all the dark elves are good.
And as for the "birthpart" part--I doubt all those dark elves had ancestors who lived in this particular city. Not all of Miyeritar was raised, just one city. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Sep 2008 16:56:36 |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 18:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
and not all the dark elves are good.
And as for the "birthpart" part--I doubt all those dark elves had ancestors who lived in this particular city. Not all of Miyeritar was raised, just one city.
That's not what I intended to insinuate that was the American in me saying this is where my people are from so I have a right to be here. It was a racial bearing more then a geographical one. Kind of Like how evermeets army laid claim to MD because it was there's before it fell. Not every one that lives there now had ancestors that were born there but as elves they lay claim same principle. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 18:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
That's not what I intended to insinuate that was the American in me saying this is where my people are from so I have a right to be here. It was a racial bearing more then a geographical one. Kind of Like how evermeets army laid claim to MD because it was there's before it fell. Not every one that lives there now had ancestors that were born there but as elves they lay claim same principle.
I get what you're saying. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 21:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
That's not what I intended to insinuate that was the American in me saying this is where my people are from so I have a right to be here. It was a racial bearing more then a geographical one. Kind of Like how evermeets army laid claim to MD because it was there's before it fell. Not every one that lives there now had ancestors that were born there but as elves they lay claim same principle.
Since Elves claim to be the first to do everything and be everywhere, that gives them a rather ubiquitous excuse to lay claim to anything they want.
Add to that that they stole the Nether Scrolls because they felt humans were undeserving of that sort of power, and you begin to realize just what 'right bastards' the Elves really are. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2008 21:56:16 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 22:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
That's not what I intended to insinuate that was the American in me saying this is where my people are from so I have a right to be here. It was a racial bearing more then a geographical one. Kind of Like how evermeets army laid claim to MD because it was there's before it fell. Not every one that lives there now had ancestors that were born there but as elves they lay claim same principle.
Since Elves claim to be the first to do everything and be everywhere, that gives them a rather ubiquitous excuse to lay claim to anything they want.
Add to that that they stole the Nether Scrolls because they felt humans were undeserving of that sort of power, and you begin to realize just what 'right bastards' the Elves really are.
I'm not saying Markustay is right or wrong here, but he's grasped the innate nature of the "Obi-Wan-isms" that I scattered throughout Cormanthyr, Fall of Myth Drannnor, etc. (What we say is true, "from a certain point of view.")
Steven
who will say that any elf (or any being) that lives in Rhymanthiin has the welfare of others in mind rather than just oneself (i.e. more good than evil/selfish), regardless of what type of elf (s)he is |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 01:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You'll learn more about the current status of Rhymanthiin in the upcoming Dragon article, Ecology of the Sharn.
om nom nom
on so many levels. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 12:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
Ha ha ha ha ha ha. good point but a great deal of humans never gave Eilistraee's faithful a chance.
A great deal of humans never knew her or even her name!  Lot's of lore or novels on her does not mean that she is a well known figure in Faerûn. On the other hand, Auril will be quite well known all over Faerûn, yet never saw any attention in the novels.
BTW, Blackstaff is the novel you'd have to read to see how the place was returned to Faerûn, even though no great detail is being giving about the place as such either.
Speaking of which ... since all the former inhabitants of the city hid in sharn-form until the restoration of their city (after which they returned to their "normal" states), should these formerly dark elves who remained in sharn-from after the reappearance - due to the lingering curse of Corellon's kin) not have returned into dark elven form by now, since the events in LP III done away with that threat? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 14:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Stout Heart
That's not what I intended to insinuate that was the American in me saying this is where my people are from so I have a right to be here. It was a racial bearing more then a geographical one. Kind of Like how evermeets army laid claim to MD because it was there's before it fell. Not every one that lives there now had ancestors that were born there but as elves they lay claim same principle.
Since Elves claim to be the first to do everything and be everywhere, that gives them a rather ubiquitous excuse to lay claim to anything they want.
Add to that that they stole the Nether Scrolls because they felt humans were undeserving of that sort of power, and you begin to realize just what 'right bastards' the Elves really are.
Theres no love lost between me in the elven race but in there defense humans have always been a few brain cells away from being orcs in all aspects of there lives it's why they mate so often. And for Zanan the only reason I know about the city is because I read black staff that vague little here I am tab in 4e isint enough to make me ask about it. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 04:46:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Speaking of which ... since all the former inhabitants of the city hid in sharn-form until the restoration of their city (after which they returned to their "normal" states), should these formerly dark elves who remained in sharn-from after the reappearance - due to the lingering curse of Corellon's kin) not have returned into dark elven form by now, since the events in LP III done away with that threat?
This certainly needs to be addressed, and I have much to think about after speaking with Steven at Gen Con. Stay tuned. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 10:44:41
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| Well, something certainly happened to them in 4E, as the description on p. 266 of the FRCG (that Level 12 solo artillery (Lolth wept)) with its chaotic evil alignment does not exactly resemble the things we know about them. Anyway, these might simply be "new" sharn formed from other consciousnesses during or post Spellplague. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 20:22:58
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I was going to post a very long-winded response here, but since nearly everyone on this site is well-aquainted with FR lore I think a "lesson on Elves" would be rather unnecessary.
I'm thinking that my own take on the Elves - and I get the idea that certain long-time FR designers as well - is something along the lines of 'over-bearing arrogance' so deeply ingrained in the Elven culture toward others, that they are 'condescending' even when they are trying to be nice.
I think that's what Steven meant by "Obi-Wanisms". The Elves don't bother to confer with other races when they make world-shaking decisions - they just assume they know best and do what they want (like the Sundering, or the destruction of Jhaamdath). Some of the vilest acts in Torillian History were committed by Elves - and many against each other (Cutting an Elf off from warmth and sunlight is likeing cutting a human off from oxygen, and the Elves did this to the entire dark Elven subrace, regardless if they participated in the Crown wars or not - and many of them turned to cannibalism in those first few difficult decades).
The Elves have committed genocide on numerous occassions (entire civilizations were wiped-out by the sundering), and attempted to do it countless other times (against Orcs, Goblinoids, and even Dragons).
When an Elf decides it is right and you are wrong, at that point good and evil no longer even matter to them - they do what they think is right, and the rest of the world be damned.
When I think of Elves, I think of Star Trek's Vulcans (and not just because of the ears). Like Mr. Spock, they come off aloof and uncaring, but just like him, that is because they have been practicing meditative diciplines to keep their chaotic nature in check. An Elf is a living ball of emotions, and it takes an incredible amount of their will to reign this in. Like the Romulans of Star Trek (who are ancestors of the Vulcans), the Drow are what EVER Elf is deep down inside - a ball of chaotic emotions that lash out at anyone at any moment, and change on a whim.
There are several 'Light Elves' that act very much like Drow, and that only further proves my point. The reason why the "Faerie Elves" hate the Drow so much is because they see themselves, as they once were, and could easily become again.
The only difference between the Drow and other Elves is that the Drow are honest with themselves, and do not attempt to reign their unbridled arrogance in. Surface Elves may treat others 'nice', but it is in much the same way a person would feed birds, or take care of a favored pet.
When it comes to (all) Elves, it doesn't matter if they treat with others with kindness or hostility - either way they are looking down at you. That kindness is just well-disguised pity.
I'm not saying this applies to every single one, because there are exceptions in every culture (like Drizzt), but every Elf feels his personal sub-group is the 'perfect one', and that is why they have been known to kill each other just as often as others. Even among the sub-races you will find this to be true - a wildElf from one forest will be shot with arrows just as quickly as any other intruder by some of the more reclusive tribes.
Plain and simple, Elves are snobs, even when they are trying their hardest not to be.
Sorry... this went on way longer then I intended, but I'd just like to end this with a quote of Ed in his notes in the Annotated Elminster, when an editor asked him to include more 'monsters' in the Myth Drannor novel -
"But Elves ARE Monsters".
PS - BTW, this WAS the short version. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2008 20:27:46 |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 20:56:26
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| As far as I'm concerned your preaching to the converted, you simply explain it better then I do. I have always had an issue with the elven high horse, It's a staple of there society. No one can understand the world as we do because we are wise and powerful. Non elves always have to prove them selves to elves they never start out as equals. As far as interracial prejudices go I'd say banding together with invaders to kill members of your own community and take control speaks louder then words. ( I'm referring to the sun elves of evermeet.) |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 01:31:36
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quote:
originally posted by Markustay
When I think of Elves, I think of Star Trek's Vulcans (and not just because of the ears). Like Mr. Spock, they come off aloof and uncaring, but just like him, that is because they have been practicing meditative diciplines to keep their chaotic nature in check. An Elf is a living ball of emotions, and it takes an incredible amount of their will to reign this in. Like the Romulans of Star Trek (who are ancestors of the Vulcans), the Drow are what EVER Elf is deep down inside - a ball of chaotic emotions that lash out at anyone at any moment, and change on a whim.
Isn't that half the fun of playing an elven character? 
Anyway, I wanted to add that you might want to include wood elves in with the "impulsive and chaotic" kind of elf. After all, I seem to recall something about Miyeritar being home to dark and wood elven clans and that seems to be one of the dominant characterizations of the subrace. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 10:19:19
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good thing most of my elves are tanks, druids and or rogues.....
only two wizards.....
anyway most of the netherese were undeserving of the power penned by the creator races, the scrolls of the world serpent.
Karsus was mad to begin with and went even worse later on , he killed a goddess, and betrayed his whole culture in the process.
and let us not even begin to speculate on how much netherese he killed and or is otherwise was responsible for.
the drow were corrupted long before they became drow, and their fate had been earned by their actions, if not started down by a pull from an eight legged (insert your preferred derogatory comment here)
jhamdath, their government had to many warmongers, and i couldnt say if it was even told if they killed elves trying to cut down those forests to fuel a borderline unstopable mental warmachine.
the issue with calim and mennom(sp??) could the 4e incident have been divined??? who knows, that and elves love freedom, might have thought they were doing the humans a favor, and or were trying to stop something before it happened.....
well it didnt work did it.......
wonder where calim and jerkface efreeti when to anyway??? back in that elven prison maybe??
btw not to derail the thread, but is anybody having problems getting into the wotc forums?? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 16:40:10
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| Eh, not all elves are the same. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 16:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Eh, not all elves are the same.
Now now, it's attitudes like that Miss, that make gaming.......
Fun, complex and more realistic! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 16:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Eh, not all elves are the same.
Now now, it's attitudes like that Miss, that make gaming.......
Fun, complex and more realistic!
Thanks, I agree with that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 19:46:35
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| I know the majority of my questions were answered way back when with this thread. But I just read the end of the LP trilogy again. A it still depresses me and B I'm still waiting for 4E novels with some hope. |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 20:15:55
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| Ok this is so of subject...but keep in mind I have been in third world countries for the last 7 years..what are the LP novels refering to? |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 20:35:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
Ok this is so of subject...but keep in mind I have been in third world countries for the last 7 years..what are the LP novels refering to?
The Lady Penitent trilogy, in which the drow pantheon gets whittled down to just Lolth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2009 : 21:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Lady Penitent trilogy, in which the drow pantheon gets whittled down to just Lolth.
Except for Ghaunadaur who then in 4e suddenly transforms miraculously into a higher god  and is not worshipped by drow anymore... 
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Hidden City of Hope
