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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 15:46:01
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I know what helps when discussing how well something is selling. Figures. You know, those strange numbers, like 10,000. Or 20. Or 300.
Until we get those for sales, then we don't know anything. What we can look at is the average rating for the books on Amazon, which are 2.5 for the US site, and 2.0 for the UK site. Pretty dire.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 15:57:47
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I do trust Christopher's outlook concerning the numbers. He has a lot of background in the industry and knows what he's talking about.
In regards to how the 4E and FRCG books are selling, I am positive they are doing well enough to make Wasbro keep moving forward with their plan. Future releases may drop, however, since these are the first books of the new rules and everyone's 'wetting their feet' in this regard.
My personal belief is that, yes, the younger player demographic that Wasbro is aiming at will not continue very long into the game. We're attracting some returning players (like Chris and Brimstone), which is good and they are sure to support the brand as long as they appreciate the products. Of the younger players, I think about 10-15% of them will continue to support the brand long-term, but the rest will fall away after 4th has lost its 'shiny'. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 16:11:14
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I don't, I stopped paying attention by that point except to try to keep up with my notes. Sorry. Plus, I have zero interest in those novels.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
KnightErrantJR and Kuje(pronounced Koo-Gee ) were sitting to my left, maybe one of them recalls for sure?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 18:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg 
I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is.
Thank You for posting that.
My inner 'fantasy-geography' nerd is weeping tears of joy right now.
I should really get back to my FR/GH/Mystara amalgam one of these days... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 18:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[br
Considering that most of those settings are on their own worlds (most of which have not been fully explored), there is no degree of accuracy whatsoever.
Oops, of course not. I wasn't being clear. I meant were the relative scales accurate. Are the Dragonlance lands really that small compared to Eberron, etc. Are all the maps mashed together there portrayed on the same 1"=100 miles type scale, is what I meant to ask. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 19:54:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
6000 posts!
Didn't even notice that.
quote:
And I see that my y'all/all y'all "clarification" was about as clear as river mud.
Don't worry about that. I was just saying I agreed with Faraer's basic point and thought it was worth repeating.
quote:
Now, that being said--I'm basically trying to encourage folks to take the business angle out of their critiques of 4E D&D and the 4E Realms, because I don't think their critiques are being well served by including that angle. When they talk about it, well, it muddies things up as much as a bunch of y'alls.
I think these books (game system and campaign setting) have been successful from a business and sales point of view. I think they will continue to be, and I think the people who make their decisions based on business/sales success in various offices will ultimately be very pleased with the changes. As you, Rinonalyrna, say, though, in the context of these boards, that's not actually the important thing--so it's interesting to me that people keep coming back to it, keep, frankly, undermining their own critiques with that angle.
Well, with any ongoing debate, one will see strong arguments and weak arguments. I would agree that points made about how well these books are selling are not only weak arguments but also red herrings. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 20:13:23
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| What would be best, but will never see the light of day is would be not only actual sales figures ,but those figures vs. what they anticipated they would be. Then we could judge the value of the gamble/risk. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 20:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
(I'm not interested (the) upcoming "Xxiphu" novels,
Xxiphu? How does one say that? "Ex ex ip oo" "kiss kiss I poo"?
I think it's ZIF-fu, but then again I do not speak Lovecraftian. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 20:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I think that might be because some of us only speak English not American. 
I have to say, I don't find that funny. :-/ |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 21:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I think that might be because some of us only speak English not American.
I have to say, I don't find that funny. :-/
Funny? Definitely not. Disappointingly true at times? Yes |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 21:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I think that might be because some of us only speak English not American.
I have to say, I don't find that funny. :-/
Funny? Definitely not. Disappointingly true at times? Yes
Lol. I find that funny! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 23:40:44
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I'm curious to whom scribes believe Cordell and Athans addressed the OP column.
I purchased Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and, after the RL-specific ambience perished at the hands of Cordell and Wyatt upon the altar of modularity (real word?), Cordell and Wyatt held a similarly scripted press release about EtCR.
I don't quite grasp to whom these are addressed. Setting fans? WotC corp? Other D&D designers? The publishing industry? I'm not very politically-savvy, but these strike me as staged and scripted.  |
Edited by - monknwildcat on 03 Sep 2008 01:31:28 |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 23:56:44
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Regarding sales, it's pretty natural for folks who feel their personal creativity and gaming campaigns insulted to want the efforts of those who offend to fail. 
My curiosity's peeked by the question of how DDI's implementation affected 4E sales. I suspect every gamer invested in 4E will buy the settings offered to maximize the usefulness of their 4E core books. So have the sales of 4E's core abated since the realization DDI wasn't near schedule? The news Game Table won't be out this year? |
Edited by - monknwildcat on 03 Sep 2008 01:30:15 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 03:59:35
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
I'm curious to whom scribes believe Cordell and Athans addressed the OP column.
D&D players that didn't like FR in previous editions for various reasons (good or bad). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 03 Sep 2008 03:59:48 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 04:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I think that might be because some of us only speak English not American.
I have to say, I don't find that funny. :-/
Funny? Definitely not. Disappointingly true at times? Yes
Lol. I find that funny!
I too actually find this funny, because it really is true. My 12 years of military experience, being stationed abroad for portions of that time, has taught me much in this regard |
Edited by - scererar on 03 Sep 2008 04:38:30 |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 09:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
I'm curious to whom scribes believe Cordell and Athans addressed the OP column.
D&D players that didn't like FR in previous editions for various reasons (good or bad).
Thanks for responding, Skeptic! As a non-member of that group, I'd not considered it as a target.
It makes sense, though!  |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 20:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I want to be short on this. In a gamist/narrativist play, Exploration comes after the "main thing", when there is only Exploration, it is simulationist play.
I'd still argue that when Exploration is the "main thing", it's not about simulationist play, but rather the experience and exploration of different themes, stories and characters. I may be wrong, though -- it's been years since I last read the GNS theory.
quote:
Of course, one of the free "module" of Burning Wheel, "The Gift" is about a group of Elves sent to a Dwarven forteress to celebrate something I don't recall. Both elven and dwarven characters are really powerful, but the premise is that the Elves forgot to bring a gift and are virtually prisonners of the Dwarves.
Hmmm... that sounds like an interesting adventure. You don't *usually* start out as an "experienced" character in BW, though.
quote:
What I say is that if you follow the game framework (4 encounters per day, some easy, some hard, etc.) you end up with too many TPK in levels 1-3 (and I don't talk about high level). The game is broken. Of course you can come up with tons of way of fixing it, but that doesn't change the fact that the designers failed at their job.
In my short experience of 4E, randomness can still change the course of a fight (try to roll below 5 on three daily powers in a row!)
If the suggested encounter levels and frequency are off-balance, it does not mean the whole system is "broken". In my experience the game works just fine, as long as everyone is on the same page about the "lethality" of the campaign (i.e. how "combat-optimized" the PCs need to be) and the DM always takes into account the status of the PCs and also the limits of their abilities. All it takes is just communication between the DM and players, and some common sense.
More often than TPKs I've seen (and experienced) DMs writing modules with intricate plots and encounter "triggers" that confuse and frustrate the players, as they do not know where to go to or who they should talk to (and the DM isn't giving any "free hints"). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 20:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I've just checked Amazon.com, I searched for "Dungeon and Dragons" and then ranked the searches by best-selling, and it seems that the new FR setting is currently selling well. It's been reviewed 35 times and has a score of less than 2.5 (slightly below average).
With Amazon.de, it's ranked number one, as the Topseller but hasn't been reviewed.
With Amazon.co.uk, it's also the number one in terms of best-selling. It's been reviewed four times and has a score of 2.0 (below average)
Considering the book has only been available for a month, I think it is fair to say that initial sales look good. Although, we do not know the figures and we do not know what the sales target is. We know that it is selling well at Amazon but we do not know the actual figures, we merely know that compared to other products that are currently out there it is doing well. However, we do not know if it has sold a 100 copies or 10,000 copies. I'm sure there are new people buying it. I'm also sure there are people who know the setting well and have bought it out of curiosity. However, the question for both groups is whether they'll recommend it to their friends.
I think it is premature to say they "have been successful" from a sales point of view because we do not know the target that has been set and the book has only been out for a month. It may be worth having this discussion in a year's time. Finally, I think it is fair to say that consulting Amazon isn't the best way of finding these figures but it was the quickest way I could glean some idea of sales since I do not have access to the actual publishing figures.
Yes, the sales figures or "ranks" on Amazon are not proof of anything, even in the long run, since we cannot know how many copies of a book Amazon has. If I remember correctly, according to the Amazon, 3E FR Campaign Setting has vastly "outsold" the Eberron CS -- which I suspect is definitely not the case in actual total sales.
Those numbers of reviews are quite normal for any D&D book, but those scores are actually quite *BRUTAL* -- I can't recall the last time I saw a D&D book with an average score below 3.0, so it appears that the fans who bought the book are not really happy. And let's remember that many people pre-ordered their book, or bought it "out of curiosity". Based on what I've seen on the biggest D&D boards, a lot many are not actually very happy with their decision. Of course, long-term commitment or sales for FR does not probably bother WoTC at all, since they're only going to publish three accessories for FR. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 20:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
-- it's been years since I last read the GNS theory.
Maybe it's time to give it another shot ?
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm... that sounds like an interesting adventure. You don't *usually* start out as an "experienced" character in BW, though.
BW, like D&D is built for long-term campaign, but 4 LifePaths characters (what is recommended) is above what is typical of D&D (pre 4E). Of course, the power level of D&D and BW characters is very difficult to compare. ( Link for "The Gift" ).
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
More often than TPKs I've seen (and experienced) DMs writing modules with intricate plots and encounter "triggers" that confuse and frustrate the players, as they do not know where to go to or who they should talk to (and the DM isn't giving any "free hints").
That's sweet music to my ears ! |
Edited by - Skeptic on 03 Sep 2008 20:41:44 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 02:42:57
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I had opened a thread on this without realizing one was already open. So I'll post my reply from my original thread that was closed for good reason:
I was still disappointed and unhappy with their decisions because the only thing behind those decisions was the dollar sign.
I will quote key passages I merely shook my head at and grumbled about.
Bruce Cordell: "Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.
Believed, but was this really the case?
"No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings."
And what was wrong with that?
"The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic."
There were PLENTY of new lands to bring in. Was the whole Abeir thing truly Ed Greenwood's idea from the beginning or was it a last minute effort made for the purpose of rearing the Realms into the 4E cosmology?
Philip Athans: "By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store."
What is this guy talking about!? There were PLENTY of places that were hardly detailed, PLENTY of places that had no detail, and PLENTY of land to detail in the Forgotten Realms? They couldn't revisit the Old Empires, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zhakara, color in the Hordelands, Sossal, the Utter East, Anchorome, Katashaka, the Terra Incognita Lands? The list is massive!
Bruce Cordell: "In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny."
Having the PCs in a world that massive as the only special people is unrealistic. It shouldn't matter to the PCs that there's beings and people stronger than they are and those beings are busy with their own problems to meddle with low-level affairs. Can no one tell a story and run a game without throwing in a powerful NPC anymore? Just cause Elminster is in Shadowdale doesn't mean you can't have adventures in Shadowdale. Elminster either doesn't know, has no time, or is "Gone Fishing"! The same can be said about any NPC. As PCs get higher level, yes, then these are the people to consider as NPCs for the PCs to deal with and to get involved with the same affairs they are. At that point, no one will feel "unspecial" really.
"The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.”
But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage."
Why are they comparing novel lines to game sales? They really don't coincide with each other at all. I know Realms players that have never picked up a Realms novel. I know plenty of Realms novel readers that had no idea it was a D&D campaign setting and just a game. And the real point of the matter is why can't they draw a line between novel and game, why must the two blur into each other? Novel lines shouldn't be the end-all-be-all of game sales and vice versa. Leave the two separate. I don't believe the sales of one has anything to do with the other.
"You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil?"
A COUPLE of niggling details? From what I've read between pre-4E and post-4E D&D Core and Forgotten Realms, there's much more than a COUPLE of niggling details that's getting everyone riled up. Heck, the same reason I hear 75% of the gamers in St. Louis region isn't buying into the whole 4E thing in the first place. The fact that everything got retconned like a DC/Marvel comic line.
My criticism may be a little harsh but I am a hardcore fan and it's irritating. I really don't see anything in this at all that tells me they had the Realms in mind when 4E came along. It's more along the lines of "We'll never ease the fans, let's say a little something and ease 5% of them...5% of profit from this is better than 0%".
Disgusted I simply am. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 03:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Philip Athans: "By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store."
What is this guy talking about!? There were PLENTY of places that were hardly detailed, PLENTY of places that had no detail, and PLENTY of land to detail in the Forgotten Realms? They couldn't revisit the Old Empires, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zhakara, color in the Hordelands, Sossal, the Utter East, Anchorome, Katashaka, the Terra Incognita Lands? The list is massive!
As a couple of others have pointed out, I'm puzzled by the apparent idea that any given area can only be host to one story. If JK Rowling can set six books in one building, how can a bunch of other folks be unable to tell a story in a place where someone else has told a story? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 09:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I was still disappointed and unhappy with their decisions because the only thing behind those decisions was the dollar sign.
I will say one thing here: as WOTC is not a charity, and own the relevant IP, as such, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for them to make decisions with the dollar sign in mind.
I do disagree with the outcome of their decision though, but that's another matter entirely ;-) |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 12:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If JK Rowling can set six books in one building, how can a bunch of other folks be unable to tell a story in a place where someone else has told a story?
One reason springs immediately to mind  |
Edited by - arry on 04 Sep 2008 12:12:16 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 12:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Philip Athans: "By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store."
What is this guy talking about!? There were PLENTY of places that were hardly detailed, PLENTY of places that had no detail, and PLENTY of land to detail in the Forgotten Realms? They couldn't revisit the Old Empires, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zhakara, color in the Hordelands, Sossal, the Utter East, Anchorome, Katashaka, the Terra Incognita Lands? The list is massive!
As a couple of others have pointed out, I'm puzzled by the apparent idea that any given area can only be host to one story. If JK Rowling can set six books in one building, how can a bunch of other folks be unable to tell a story in a place where someone else has told a story?
I think thats where it gets complicated when you have to work together with other people. A single author can write several books about the same area easily because he has all of the story. If you put several authors to work in the same area you will need a tight coordination or the "story" will eventually be illogical or have contradicting elements. Nevertheless I dont think anyone has tried this so far, which is kinda sad. You also need a "long term vision" on where to go. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I was still disappointed and unhappy with their decisions because the only thing behind those decisions was the dollar sign.
I will say one thing here: as WOTC is not a charity, and own the relevant IP, as such, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for them to make decisions with the dollar sign in mind.
I do disagree with the outcome of their decision though, but that's another matter entirely ;-)
I do agree with you on the fact that WotC (and Hasbro) isnt a charity, BUT they are part of the "entertainment business". Everyone in that business has to make up his mind of how he wants to make money:
1. keeping the cost low so you can make a lot of products and not really caring about quality too much OR
2. be fully focused on the quality of the product and accepting the probably higher cost.
I would say WotC is following down path #1 because that is the "way of the quick buck" and will earn them more money. It is also the way of our society, where its not as important to "eat well" but rather to "eat more".
For a company who makes roleplaying games I would think it should be the other path because we all have played the game for a long time, far longer than anyone keeps watching movies or TV series or plays with his GI Joe action figures or even Barbie dolls.
For those who remember the TV series Babylon 5 there is a pretty good "substory" which illustrates this dilemma, when doctor Franklin got addicted to drugs to let him work more and he later on says that he should have tried to work better instead.
I think this makes perfect sense and shows where our societies are wrong atm. In the EU there are subsidies on agricultural products for the amount for example, but not for the quality. So in the end WotC does everything right from the business point of view, but not really from the consumers point of view. As always this is my own point of view and many wont agree with me. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Philip Athans: "By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store."
What is this guy talking about!? There were PLENTY of places that were hardly detailed, PLENTY of places that had no detail, and PLENTY of land to detail in the Forgotten Realms? They couldn't revisit the Old Empires, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zhakara, color in the Hordelands, Sossal, the Utter East, Anchorome, Katashaka, the Terra Incognita Lands? The list is massive!
As a couple of others have pointed out, I'm puzzled by the apparent idea that any given area can only be host to one story. If JK Rowling can set six books in one building, how can a bunch of other folks be unable to tell a story in a place where someone else has told a story?
I think thats where it gets complicated when you have to work together with other people. A single author can write several books about the same area easily because he has all of the story. If you put several authors to work in the same area you will need a tight coordination or the "story" will eventually be illogical or have contradicting elements. Nevertheless I dont think anyone has tried this so far, which is kinda sad. You also need a "long term vision" on where to go.
Really, that all depends on the stories themselves. A story can be set in an area without impacting that area. For example, look at Elfshadow. It was set in Evereska and Waterdeep and points between. And none of the events had an impact on the areas themselves -- so anyone else could set a story in Evereska or Waterdeep without worrying about contradictory events. You could set a story in Westgate, concurrent with Masquerade, and if the Night Masks are not involved, it doesn't matter what Alias and Dragonbait were doing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 14:17:08
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Oh, and don't forget that the first 4th Edition 'series' of books is Ed Greenwood present Waterdeep. A series all set in ONE location written by MANY authors.
Let's just say what we're thinking. ***** ******* wants to be Ed and wants to the Realms to be his.
(I starred out his name just because I want to be kinda nice.) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 14:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh, and don't forget that the first 4th Edition 'series' of books is Ed Greenwood present Waterdeep. A series all set in ONE location written by MANY authors.
Let's just say what we're thinking. ***** ******* wants to be Ed and wants to the Realms to be his.
(I starred out his name just because I want to be kinda nice.)
Dude! Thanks for the first laugh of my day!
He Who Cannot Be Named also has his name first in every credit. Every credit. It strikes me as megalomania, so I smile everytime I see it.
Since WotC doesn't attribute authorship by section within each book's credits (which I *loved* in the Shadowrun product line), it's impossible, short of watching for patterns within products, to critique anybody's work. It strikes me as a bit unAmerican and collectivistic, actually. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 15:19:35
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| Easy on the "we's" there, Ashe. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 19:53:23
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Let's not go bashing authors and designers too much, please. There could be a simple, valid reason for any particular name to appear first. And without anything indicating that this person may or may not want the Realms for himself, then we need to discontinue all such comments right now.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Sep 2008 19:53:38 |
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Design and Development The 4E Forgotten Realms.
