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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Let's not go bashing authors and designers too much, please. There could be a simple, valid reason for any particular name to appear first. And without anything indicating that this person may or may not want the Realms for himself, then we need to discontinue all such comments right now.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Pandora

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Razz

Philip Athans: "By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store."

What is this guy talking about!? There were PLENTY of places that were hardly detailed, PLENTY of places that had no detail, and PLENTY of land to detail in the Forgotten Realms? They couldn't revisit the Old Empires, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zhakara, color in the Hordelands, Sossal, the Utter East, Anchorome, Katashaka, the Terra Incognita Lands? The list is massive!

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As a couple of others have pointed out, I'm puzzled by the apparent idea that any given area can only be host to one story. If JK Rowling can set six books in one building, how can a bunch of other folks be unable to tell a story in a place where someone else has told a story?

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I think thats where it gets complicated when you have to work together with other people. A single author can write several books about the same area easily because he has all of the story. If you put several authors to work in the same area you will need a tight coordination or the "story" will eventually be illogical or have contradicting elements. Nevertheless I dont think anyone has tried this so far, which is kinda sad. You also need a "long term vision" on where to go.

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Really, that all depends on the stories themselves. A story can be set in an area without impacting that area. For example, look at Elfshadow. It was set in Evereska and Waterdeep and points between. And none of the events had an impact on the areas themselves -- so anyone else could set a story in Evereska or Waterdeep without worrying about contradictory events. You could set a story in Westgate, concurrent with Masquerade, and if the Night Masks are not involved, it doesn't matter what Alias and Dragonbait were doing.

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Originally posted by khorne

To be honest, I do not comprehend the argument that the Realms was dying under the weight of its own history. That was the thing that drew me to FR in the first place, its rich and very detailed lore.

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Originally posted by Faraer

The hot air since is a just post-hoc justification of this commercial decision, annoying as it may be that they're spinning a business contingency as a general truth.

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Originally posted by monknwildcat

Off topic, did I mention Bruce Cordell fosters cats? www.brucecordell.com Kit of Chthulu! How awesome is that!?!? People fostering homeless animals deserve props!

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

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Originally posted by monknwildcat

Off topic, did I mention Bruce Cordell fosters cats? www.brucecordell.com Kit of Chthulu! How awesome is that!?!? People fostering homeless animals deserve props!

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Yes, he does foster cats. As a cat-lover (and animal lover) I totally respect and appreciate him for that.

That said, his designing for the Realms is something seperate, and as it happens I have not cared much for his "take" on the Realms overall. I have criticized it and will criticize it, but it shouldn't be taken as anything personal.

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Originally posted by StarBog

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Originally posted by Razz


I was still disappointed and unhappy with their decisions because the only thing behind those decisions was the dollar sign.

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I will say one thing here: as WOTC is not a charity, and own the relevant IP, as such, it is perfectly normal and acceptable for them to make decisions with the dollar sign in mind.

I do disagree with the outcome of their decision though, but that's another matter entirely ;-)

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Originally posted by Razz

I forgot to mention (and I am unsure if this should be its own topic or not) but what is up with the creation story for 4E Realms? Not only was it half-assed due to the sudden springing of 4th Edition which leaves me to take half of the lore presented in 4E Realms as simply last-minute details but did they have to plagiarize the creation stories too?

I don't know how many of you here are familiar with White Wolf's Exalted line of RPG products, but doesn't the backstory for the creation of Exalted's world and the story for the creation of 4E Realms show rather striking similarities? They share so many things in common, I wouldn't be surprised if someone in their meetings said,"We need something quick for 4E Realms and the D&D Cosmology...let's make it easy take what Exalted did!"

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

"By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover"

Using that as the reason for these sweeping changes is the one statement I just cannot reconcile with the truth of the realms.

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Originally posted by khorne

To be honest, I do not comprehend the argument that the Realms was dying under the weight of its own history. That was the thing that drew me to FR in the first place, its rich and very detailed lore.

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Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.

(...)

4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story.

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1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.

PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.

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2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once.

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PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out.

BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny.

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PA: Even as we discussed the various agents of change that would help us introduce new elements for the D&D game into the setting, we knew that just like there shouldn’t be one set of heroes, there shouldn’t be one single agent of change.

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BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself.

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3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.

PA: This was a message that should have been getting out all along, but somewhere along the way—was it the Time of Troubles?—a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. Wow, did we have to make sure people knew that wasn’t the case, and back that up with a world that put a greater emphasis on villains and that asked you to be the hero.

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5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward.

PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting.

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BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.”

But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage.

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7. It’s contemporary fantasy.

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I think the art, the political and philosophical ambiguity, and the sheer scope of the revised setting shows you just how far the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has come from its 1980s roots.

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BRC: Here’s one example.

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The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting.

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Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility.

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8. It’s 50% all new.

PA: Okay, don’t hold us to that 50% figure exactly.

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I’m not sure there’s even a way to measure what percentage of it is new, but that’s the core ideal we started with. We knew we wanted big parts of the map to be marked, for all intents and purposes: “Here Be Dragons.” This goes back to the first point: If the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a place for your characters to explore, there better be some stuff you haven’t seen before!

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BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article.

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9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.

PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away.

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Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world.

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We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.

BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.

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Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change.

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Originally posted by StarBog

I know, but what's done is done. Perhaps it is time to move on to whatever direction takes us? We all have our views of what happened (mine are like yours, less than complementary), but I'm not sure I see the sense of kicking a dead dog, so to speak.

I know that whilst I'm playing (and enjoying) LFR, apart from this, for me, the Realms will always be 1375 DR, whither that be AD&D, 3.x or 4e.

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Originally posted by Thauramarth
In other words, this Elminster fella that is only the tip of the legion (a metaphore I never heard , but then again, I am not an native English speaker or writer) is not an NPC.

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Originally posted by StarBog
the new era of tabletopping.

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

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Originally posted by Thauramarth
In other words, this Elminster fella that is only the tip of the legion (a metaphore I never heard , but then again, I am not an native English speaker or writer) is not an NPC.

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Just for your information, they are implying that Elminster is a member of a greater "army" of do-gooders (hence the word "legion"). Needless to say, I find such a statement to be faulty.

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Originally posted by keijemon

I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg

I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is.

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Originally posted by Jakk
I just wish someone would tell us about the five-sided pyramids under Ascore.

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