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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 20:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Thanks, Wooly!
Oh, and edited to add this question for everyone, pursuant to Wooly Rupert's last post, should 3.0/3.5 be held a failure from a sales and business point of view? What criteria are fair for deciding, either way?
Eh, whether or not anything is a business failure isn't as important to me as whether or not I like it. If my thoughts on the 4E FR turn out to be "unpopular", so be it--I'm not going to force myself to like it just to be in the "in crowd". Life's short, and there are other interests I'm trying to pursue.
I agree with Faraer when he says there is no "y'all" here. I don't recall saying I thought any of the newer books were selling badly (heck, I BOUGHT the 4E core rulebooks). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 31 Aug 2008 20:26:50 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:09:20
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| To be fair, 4e per se is a fun tactical miniatures wargame with some RPing tacked on. The Four LFR modules that I played at Gencon UK (yeah, I gave it a go) could just as easily been set in 1375 DR from a game mechanics and plot point of view. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 23:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
You know what guys? I've given some thought to this particular article, and I've decided that I no longer wish to purchase any novels written by Phil Athans or Bruce Cordell (I'm not interested in BC's upcoming "Xxiphu" novels, anyway). Any author who thinks there was no longer any room to tell great stories in the Realms is either unbelievably ignorant or is being dishonest.
I would have certainly preferred that neither Bruce Cordell nor Phil Athans were selected to drive the 4E Realms.
The one thing they have accomplished that is hard to believe, is to make Rich Baker seems the biggest defender of FR canon !
At this point, I'm pretty sure I would have preferred a real reboot (à la Batman Begins) of the setting instead of what they have done (even if I agree with many changes). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Aug 2008 23:14:18 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 00:15:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Thanks, Wooly!
Oh, and edited to add this question for everyone, pursuant to Wooly Rupert's last post, should 3.0/3.5 be held a failure from a sales and business point of view? What criteria are fair for deciding, either way?
Eh, whether or not anything is a business failure isn't as important to me as whether or not I like it. If my thoughts on the 4E FR turn out to be "unpopular", so be it--I'm not going to force myself to like it just to be in the "in crowd". Life's short, and there are other interests I'm trying to pursue.
I agree with Faraer when he says there is no "y'all" here. I don't recall saying I thought any of the newer books were selling badly (heck, I BOUGHT the 4E core rulebooks).
6000 posts!
And I see that my y'all/all y'all "clarification" was about as clear as river mud. 
Now, that being said--I'm basically trying to encourage folks to take the business angle out of their critiques of 4E D&D and the 4E Realms, because I don't think their critiques are being well served by including that angle. When they talk about it, well, it muddies things up as much as a bunch of y'alls.
I think these books (game system and campaign setting) have been successful from a business and sales point of view. I think they will continue to be, and I think the people who make their decisions based on business/sales success in various offices will ultimately be very pleased with the changes. As you, Rinonalyrna, say, though, in the context of these boards, that's not actually the important thing--so it's interesting to me that people keep coming back to it, keep, frankly, undermining their own critiques with that angle.
It's also troubling to me that longstanding members of this community think that new fans of the new Realms must be fools if they like what they've found in the covers of any books of the new Realms-- Swordmage, The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and now Steven's and Jaleigh's latest books--and that they loudly and confidently assert such every time they bother to post, either directly or, more insidiously, through "cute" shorthand and sophomoric nicknaming. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
It's also troubling to me that longstanding members of this community think that new fans of the new Realms must be fools if they like what they've found in the covers of any books of the new Realms-- Swordmage, The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and now Steven's and Jaleigh's latest books--and that they loudly and confidently assert such every time they bother to post, either directly or, more insidiously, through "cute" shorthand and sophomoric nicknaming.
I'm not aware of anyone actually saying that. The reception for Stephen Schend's new novel (or even the preview) is, as far as I can make out, so far pretty much universally positive, from people who don't do the whole 1475 thing.
One of the points that those of us who don't like the changes are making, and sometimes we don't make this point clearly enough, is that if you're a newcomer to the Realms and like the 1475 version, then you would be pretty orgasmic over the 1375 version. The criticism of 4e FR aren't made in isolation. The 3.x version of the Realms beats the 1475 version into a cocked hat. And that's why we get pained about the 1475 version: it could have been so much more than the (comparative) abortion it is. |
Edited by - StarBog on 01 Sep 2008 01:10:00 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
BTW, having exploration as your main priority during play is the definition of the "simulationism" creative agenda.
IIRC 'exploration' per GNS theory does not emphasize simulationist play, but rather the issues I posted above. If anything, I see it emphasizing narrativist style and themes, because how well or realistically the rules model the characters and the setting is not relevant -- the satisfying experience and the exploration of different themes and characters and stories are in themselves is the "reward" and primary goal.
quote:
Lots of indie RPG that facilitates narrativist play also let the players start with more "established" characters.
Yes, but that's not usually an issue or even relevant to the play itself. The mechanics tend to support the theme in Indie RPGs, and whether your character is a grizzled veteran or a "greenhorn" does not often matter. For example, in Polaris you start as a young knight, but a clever negotiator does not need any mechanical advantages -- especially when your character actually might lose *more* than with bargaining whenever you roll the dice.
When we tried 'Dust Devils' in my group, one of the players kept pestering me about whether his character could own a store or not. He didn't invest any skill points in any sort of craft, so I told him flatly that he didn't have any experience in running a business. He almost started a conflict over intimidating a former owner to leave town, and taking over his store -- in a game where money doesn't have any mechanical signifigance! And you *only* start conflicts about things that your character *really* cares about in 'Dust Devils'. Sheesh! Just thought to mention that as a funny example of a long-time D&D player's first Indie RPG session (BTW, he is what I would call a true powergamer).
quote:
I like how PCs start in 4E, because smaller wasn't really working in 3.XE (following the XP/CR framework).
Um, I never had any problems with that, but then again, I don't really use a lot of combat encounters per session until the PCs have hit 3rd or 4th level. Maybe it has been a problem in some groups, but also note that 4E removes a lot of "randomness" (which some would probably call "swinginess") from combats, and to me it seems that you can often see/predict how the encounter will end several rounds before it does. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
...the (comparative) abortion it is.
Okay, I take back what I said about the shorthand and nicknaming being cute and sophomoric. That right there is something else altogether.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 02:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
...the (comparative) abortion it is.
Okay, I take back what I said about the shorthand and nicknaming being cute and sophomoric. That right there is something else altogether.
It must be noted that most of us who dislike the Realms of 4E have never insulted others for liking it, nor insulted their opinions. Just because people don't agree with each other, it doesn't mean that either side is insulting the other. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 03:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
...the (comparative) abortion it is.
Okay, I take back what I said about the shorthand and nicknaming being cute and sophomoric. That right there is something else altogether.
It must be noted that most of us who dislike the Realms of 4E have never insulted others for liking it, nor insulted their opinions. Just because people don't agree with each other, it doesn't mean that either side is insulting the other.
This is true. Skeptic and I disagree on just about everything 4th Edition and 4E Realms, yet we've managed (or at least tried to manage) to keep everything civilized and debatable. We both know that each has their reasons for liking what they like and can respect them.
Personally, I think the stuff that went back and forth with Skeptic and I might have helped people (especially newcomers) to see the pros and cons of both sides and make up their own minds. Not to mention, we both tried to say, "Hey, this is my opinion, anyone else please read and judge the stuff for yourself." |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
IIRC 'exploration' per GNS theory does not emphasize simulationist play, but rather the issues I posted above. If anything, I see it emphasizing narrativist style and themes, because how well or realistically the rules model the characters and the setting is not relevant -- the satisfying experience and the exploration of different themes and characters and stories are in themselves is the "reward" and primary goal.
I want to be short on this. In a gamist/narrativist play, Exploration comes after the "main thing", when there is only Exploration, it is simulationist play.
quote:
Yes, but that's not usually an issue or even relevant to the play itself. The mechanics tend to support the theme in Indie RPGs, and whether your character is a grizzled veteran or a "greenhorn" does not often matter.
Of course, one of the free "module" of Burning Wheel, "The Gift" is about a group of Elves sent to a Dwarven forteress to celebrate something I don't recall. Both elven and dwarven characters are really powerful, but the premise is that the Elves forgot to bring a gift and are virtually prisonners of the Dwarves.
quote:
Um, I never had any problems with that, but then again, I don't really use a lot of combat encounters per session until the PCs have hit 3rd or 4th level. Maybe it has been a problem in some groups, but also note that 4E removes a lot of "randomness" (which some would probably call "swinginess") from combats, and to me it seems that you can often see/predict how the encounter will end several rounds before it does.
What I say is that if you follow the game framework (4 encounters per day, some easy, some hard, etc.) you end up with too many TPK in levels 1-3 (and I don't talk about high level). The game is broken. Of course you can come up with tons of way of fixing it, but that doesn't change the fact that the designers failed at their job.
In my short experience of 4E, randomness can still change the course of a fight (try to roll below 5 on three daily powers in a row!) |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 07:42:09
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I concur. I will simply vote with my dollars. I have no use whatsoever for the new Realms.
I was deeply disappointed that areas like Cormyr, the Dales, the Western Heartlands and so forth never got a book like the Silver Marches. I can't imagine that a Cormyr book would not have been a guaranteed money maker. I just don't follow the business model.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
You know what guys? I've given some thought to this particular article, and I've decided that I no longer wish to purchase any novels written by Phil Athans or Bruce Cordell (I'm not interested in BC's upcoming "Xxiphu" novels, anyway). Any author who thinks there was no longer any room to tell great stories in the Realms is either unbelievably ignorant or is being dishonest.
Again, I'm not deliberately trying to be disrespectful, but it is my money to spend, and the tone of this article really upset me.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
Edited by - bitter thorn on 01 Sep 2008 07:53:00 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 07:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Playing the only hero is? And no hero ever started small? Even Hercules had to prove himself with difficult tasks to be accepted into the Olymp and then he wasnt "the boss". The new Forgotten Realms almost removes the need to roleplay because there are hardly any NPCs left with whom to do that ... apart from some farmers and hunters who dont really matter and will prolly say "yes" to everything the PCs ask, eh? Everything else is monster infested wilderness.
If by roleplay you mean PCs being bullied by Dumbledore/Voldomort kind of NPCs, I'm glad of it.
I'm not saying that starting small is "evil", it certainly can be fun, but that's not the only kind of play experience that RPG can offer.
I dont really think every new adventuring party has to be taken by the hand by either Elminster, Khelben, Vangey or any other important / high level NPC of the realm. In fact I wouldnt like this "Kindergarten style" in my group at all. It is ok for a novel to have something like this, but its counterproductive to have someone with "limitless resources" around a group of players because it stifles the creativity of those players.
If you dont like starting small as a level 1 char its always possible to start at a higher level, but I think its a necessary process to get the "learning curve" of what your low level stuff can do and also to think about ways to solve problems without magic (because you dont have a spell for problem X yet or because your daily potential is better used elsewhere).
Some novels describe NPCs almost as "I cast a spell to lift my eyebrow", but if you count the number of spells used that way during the day it seems a bit unrealistic from a game point of view (still 3rd edition) and too magic focused - they are still fun to read. Sadly the new edition introduced "per encounter powers" and things like these dont work for me since they feed the mage-style of "I have / cast protective spells everywhere" which I dont like because its not really realistic. Wizards need to have a limited number of spells or they become bad / broken eventually.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I want to be short on this. In a gamist/narrativist play, Exploration comes after the "main thing", when there is only Exploration, it is simulationist play.
I generally think its good NOT to think in categories because that boxes you in and shoves you into a certain corner by yourself. Taking the game as it comes at you is the best solution, but sadly the 4e rules have this focus on combat and the campaign books have to try and give other possibilities too. They fail IMO (if they even attempted to try and give other motives for adventuring) and are as combat / encounter focused as the core books. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1745 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 09:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
I concur. I will simply vote with my dollars. I have no use whatsoever for the new Realms.
I was deeply disappointed that areas like Cormyr, the Dales, the Western Heartlands and so forth never got a book like the Silver Marches. I can't imagine that a Cormyr book would not have been a guaranteed money maker. I just don't follow the business model.
I agree with you about this during the 3.x era. There were so many places (including ALL the ones you mentioned) that I was just waiting for all these years, thinking that Wizards would get to them eventually. Boy, was I a fool. 
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 20:51:44
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I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg 
I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 01 Sep 2008 20:53:37 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 21:49:02
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That's actually oddly compelling. Reminds me of Robert Silverberg's Majipoor.
Anybody have any idea what the relative scales of the settings are, and thus whether that's anywhere close to accurate?
And Ashe, Kara-tur's in there, looks like. South of Greyhawk and east of the Dark Sun. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 00:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
I can't believe that Plan B now actually looks to be the sane one: http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7940/1220293188489kh4.jpg
I also have stumbled upon an annotaded version of the 4e FR... but I don't think forum rules will allow me to post something as NSFW as it is.
How did we learn about Plan B? I miss a lot, but I've never heard of Plan B for the FR design.... |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 00:33:25
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Plan B ehh???
Ok, drop a nuke on Eberr-off and I'd buy it |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 01:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Plan B ehh???
Ok, drop a nuke on Eberr-off and I'd buy it
Somebody's gonna cast "Find Topic" in here pretty soon, but since we're wandering off the garden path already...
I don't really know anything about Eberron, though I get the impression that it's sort of quasi-steampunk. Which gives me the awkward segue I need to say that, on reading the new issue of SF Site this morning, I just ordered this book, which I somehow missed when it first came out. The first one, The Iron Dragon's Daughter, was awesome. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 04:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
That's actually oddly compelling. Reminds me of Robert Silverberg's Majipoor.
Anybody have any idea what the relative scales of the settings are, and thus whether that's anywhere close to accurate?
And Ashe, Kara-tur's in there, looks like. South of Greyhawk and east of the Dark Sun.
Considering that most of those settings are on their own worlds (most of which have not been fully explored), there is no degree of accuracy whatsoever.
I honestly don't see the dragonborn as being too close to draconians, other than the obvious thing of both are dragon-derived. I think the dragonborn are an interesting race, and their inclusion into the Realms is not something that bothers me -- though I do wish they'd come up with a different name, and I don't like the way they were included.
With the spellscars and the plaguelands, though, it's hard to see the inspiration as being anything but an Eberron translation. I'd really like to know why the designers included such obvious analogues to another setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rory
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 06:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Without getting into a point-by-point critiqué, and without going into too personal an attack (which Old Sage has so 'sagely' advised against), I have just one thing to say.
No one who loved the Realms could have done that to them. They needed to put together a team that felt, at best, indifferent. When you love something, you do not go out of your way to make it unrecognizable.
Well said, well said |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 09:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
(I'm not interested (the) upcoming "Xxiphu" novels,
Xxiphu? How does one say that? "Ex ex ip oo" "kiss kiss I poo"? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 09:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
And I see that my y'all/all y'all "clarification" was about as clear as river mud.
I think that might be because some of us only speak English not American.
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I think these books (game system and campaign setting) have been successful from a business and sales point of view.
I've just checked Amazon.com, I searched for "Dungeon and Dragons" and then ranked the searches by best-selling, and it seems that the new FR setting is currently selling well. It's been reviewed 35 times and has a score of less than 2.5 (slightly below average).
With Amazon.de, it's ranked number one, as the Topseller but hasn't been reviewed.
With Amazon.co.uk, it's also the number one in terms of best-selling. It's been reviewed four times and has a score of 2.0 (below average)
Considering the book has only been available for a month, I think it is fair to say that initial sales look good. Although, we do not know the figures and we do not know what the sales target is. We know that it is selling well at Amazon but we do not know the actual figures, we merely know that compared to other products that are currently out there it is doing well. However, we do not know if it has sold a 100 copies or 10,000 copies. I'm sure there are new people buying it. I'm also sure there are people who know the setting well and have bought it out of curiosity. However, the question for both groups is whether they'll recommend it to their friends.
I think it is premature to say they "have been successful" from a sales point of view because we do not know the target that has been set and the book has only been out for a month. It may be worth having this discussion in a year's time. Finally, I think it is fair to say that consulting Amazon isn't the best way of finding these figures but it was the quickest way I could glean some idea of sales since I do not have access to the actual publishing figures.
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
It's also troubling to me that longstanding members of this community think that new fans of the new Realms must be fools if they like what they've found in the covers of any books of the new Realms
You're right, it is wrong to give the label of fool to anyone. However, I personally see a lot of people expressing what they feel about the new setting. I don't see that many saying that they hold the latest arrivals to the setting as foolish. I guess it's just a question of perception. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 12:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I've just checked Amazon.com...
I think it is premature to say they "have been successful" from a sales point of view because we do not know the target that has been set and the book has only been out for a month...
Well, the publishing industry as a whole probably has slightly different standards than the gaming industry bit of it, but first month sales are a very strong indicator. And while, of course, I have no idea what WotC's target numbers were, I'm told (not by WotC people) that when comparing the numbers for the new book versus the last couple of 3.0/3.5 books (The Campaign and Players books) the older books certainly suffer in the comparison in terms of raw numbers sold. When I checked, it had only been 10 days since launch. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 13:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
It's also troubling to me that longstanding members of this community think that new fans of the new Realms must be fools if they like what they've found in the covers of any books of the new Realms
You're right, it is wrong to give the label of fool to anyone. However, I personally see a lot of people expressing what they feel about the new setting. I don't see that many saying that they hold the latest arrivals to the setting as foolish. I guess it's just a question of perception.
I guess so, too.
And my perception is that when, in just the last day or two, for example, one "Master of Realmslore" opines that the new book must be aimed at "ritalin-popping, short-attention span youth who can't be bothered to read anything longer than 2 pages" and another says that comparing the designers of the 4E Realms to the mentally challenged would be "really insulting the mentally challenged" because he's "fairly sure they could have come up with something MUCH better..."
Well, then, my perception is that some longstanding members of this community think that new fans of the new Realms must be fools.
I've read every post to this site for the last month (except for those threads that don't have anything to do with the Forgotten Realms, like the Golarion thread).
The attitude exists and is voiced with great frequency by some of the most senior scribes here. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 02 Sep 2008 14:11:20 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 14:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
And my perception is that when, in just the last day or two, for example, one "Master of Realmslore" opines that the new book must be aimed at "ritalin-popping, short-attention span youth who can't be bothered to read anything longer than 2 pages" and another says that comparing the designers of the 4E Realms to the mentally challenged would be "really insulting the mentally challenged" because he's "fairly sure they could have come up with something MUCH better..."
Well, then, my perception is that some longstanding members of this community think that new fans of the new Realms must be fools.
The attitude exists and is voiced with great frequency by some of the most senior scribes here.
I'm not going to argue against you because you are right.
I will say that if I have personally appeared condescending then please let me know. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 14:34:16
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-That attitude should have no place in a civilized forum like this. If scribes want to bad mouth WotC or the 4E Realms they should do it at the WotC forums. Yet when a moderator has disparaging comments toward the 4E FR,...well what can one expect.  I understand people are upset but lets have a little maturity ok. I started out on the fence last year, swung from one extreme to another. (Pro and Anti, and this putting people into nice neat little pigeonholes needs to stop IMO) Then I made a decision to give it a try, and I like it does that make me less than a fan, even when I started using and playing D&D in the Realms in 1996 when I was stationed in Korea while in the Army? I dont know if I even want to post here at candlekeep whith some of the nonsense I have seen. I do have faith that candlekeep can rise above the threadcrapping that goes on at the WotC Forums. YMMV.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 15:17:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
(I'm not interested (the) upcoming "Xxiphu" novels,
Xxiphu? How does one say that? "Ex ex ip oo" "kiss kiss I poo"?
I think Bruce pronounced it Zi-foo, with the i sounding like the i in if.
KnightErrantJR and Kuje(pronounced Koo-Gee) were sitting to my left, maybe one of them recalls for sure? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 02 Sep 2008 15:20:32 |
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Design and Development The 4E Forgotten Realms.
