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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 17:46:35
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One can state how one feels without resorting to vulgarity. Authors have been doing it for centuries - getting their anger and feelings across without such words or phrases. Food for thought.
None of which would detract from how you really feel about the subject.
I for one will be purchasing this book to add to my almost complete (since 1st edition) FR collection. I don't know if I will ever run in this world, but it'd be nice to look and read.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1409 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 18:46:33
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People tend to get emotional about FR, but that was a good thing, despite the fact that some folks in charge decided having a dedicated fanbase was counter-productive to their own machinations.
Anyhow, if you just treat the two as completely seperate settings (as I do), its a lot easier to handle. I just pretend the new 4e core world has nothing to do with the real Forgotten Realms. 
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So they actually managed to come up with something worse then Maztica?
Now that DID take a lot of talent LOL. 
Don't be cruel to Maztica. 
Dungeon crawling in Maztica was great fun. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark and Temple of Doom, only more monsters and traps, and fewer Nazis.
I like Maztica, actually.
A lot of people didn't, and that was what I was referencing while making my bad attempt at humor. Mind you, I didn't say 'love' Maztica, which is how I feel about the rest of the setting (even kara-Tur and Zakhara). I think Maztica had TONS of potential, and still can't understand what prompted them to just erase it, when they could have 're-imagined' it, especially given the Spellplague and the Abeir silliness.
Would it have been so hard to say that tidal forces and tectonic activity changed the shape of the continent, and new races came through gates from Abeir (and elsewhere)? With an entire century to play with, it just seemed like a ridiculous and pointless thing to do to say that the continent was swapped-out with another.
And what happened to Anchorome and Katashaka? 
Methinks WotC pulled a fast one, and Ed DID in fact work on Anchorome, and they decided (foolishly) to use what he did to replace Maztica. I know if I use the new Abeir stuff at all, thats what I will do (Stick it in Anchorome). There was no point in over-writing an existing region, when NO lore what-so-ever existed about the continents north and south of it.
In fact, if and when I get around to doing an Anchorome Map, I will do two versions - one with just terrain on it, and another placing all of the Abierran stuff from 4e on it.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2008 19:37:02 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
And the dropping of the original eladrins of the planes was absolutely unneccessary.
They are not dropped, they are now called "noble eladrins". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:39:19
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Further evidence of pointless retcons; change for the sake of Change.
If you ignored ALL of the Elf/Eladrin stuff from core, it will not effect your 4e FR game what-so-ever.
Neither will just keeping the gods as they were. Calling a Demigod an Exarch does nothing for the game, IMHO, except help the designers feel like they were actually being creative. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2008 20:01:38 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Neither will just keeping the gods as they were. Calling a Demigod an Exarch does nothing for the game, IMHO, except help the designers feel ike they were actually being creative.
I very much like the new scale of power (Exarch, God, Greater God).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:04:13
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I, on the other hand, found the old system too limited, and added in several other levels to it.
Several dozen, in fact...
But my point was that there is a LOT in the new FRCG you could simply ignore if you don't like it (which is meant to be a positive, believe it or not). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2008 : 05:33:17
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quote:
...This looks like a computer game manual.
But enough about aesthetics! I've only really given it a quick once over but the whole thing feels very undernourished. None of the country entries seem to be more than 2 pages - even for Cormyr, Thay and what have you. The exception seems to be for Menzo-blooming-berranzan that has 2 pages dedicated to the various houses alone.
Now, I'm not saying it feels skewed towards the fans of a certain drow, but it does feel like it's skewed towards the fans of a certain drow... ...
[quote trimmed for space]
Of COURSE it looks like a computer game manual! Ultimately, that's what 4E is designed for... attracting the MMORPG fans, the new virtual gaming table, and the computer game licensing. If you make it look like a computer game, it makes all of those things easier to implement, at least in theory.
And yes, there will always be Menzo-blooming-berranzan. The only reason the time jump wasn't a thousand years instead of a hundred is because they needed to keep Drizzt around to sell novels (and game books too, to a lesser degree).
I can't remember if I've put my 2 cents in already, but in short: I looked at it, I felt unclean after touching it, the bits on Waterdeep and Returned Abeir were interesting and too short, and the rest of the book needs to be bound up with the 4E core and compacted into a magical item: either a Cube of Fourth or a Cube of Farce, depending on the creator's state of mind (Elminster post-Sellplague produces the latter variety, and Szass Tam produces the former).
I find it very hard to suppress my vitriol on this subject... and to keep my lunch down when I think about what's been done to the Realms. I admire Ed for staying on, though... I believe he made reference to staying on to help steer the ship when he talked about his feelings on the new edition. The problem is, the helm has been obliterated like Tilverton and Ordulin, throwing him overboard, and he's steering by swimming behind the ship and moving the rudder by hand, because nobody who has the authority to help him get back on board wants him there. Note that I am *not* referring to the designers here, so don't flame me for lack of respect for the designers. I've done world design for myself, and that was part of the reason I've stuck with the Realms for as long as I have. However, this recent unfortunate turn of events in "canon" lore has given me renewed interest in building something of my own into the pre-Sellplague world that I love, and my own campaign's timeline was already past 1385 before the GHotR came out, so the Sellplague just didn't happen in my Realms. Good thing too, or I'd probably be just giving up and selling my books like some others have done. A touch extreme, and not to my taste either, but understandable.
Anyway, I'm done commenting; take my words how you will, but remember that I'm unique, just like everybody else. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2008 : 05:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, if you just treat the two as completely seperate settings (as I do), its a lot easier to handle. I just pretend the new 4e core world has nothing to do with the real Forgotten Realms.
That's not pretending, you know. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2008 : 06:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I, on the other hand, found the old system too limited, and added in several other levels to it.
Several dozen, in fact...
 Really? Would you happen to have that expanded system available for perusal? I've found some limitations with the existing system too, mostly because of the number of deities (which I like, btw; I'm not trimming the pantheon for anything; in fact, I have *both* Lathander and Amaunator in my campaign, and I had my scaled-down, limited-in-time pseudo-Spellplague result in Myrkul being returned to divinity as a result of Ao's intervention to halt and/or prevent the chaos that was enveloping Toril; no Abeir here). There are actually *more* deities in my post-1385 Realms than there were before 1385, and that includes killing off Tyr (he was too much like Torm, and too derivative).  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 04:40:34
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Ah you are my hero...another Realms fan that ENJOYS the multitude of deities in the Realms. As large as the Realms is, I never onced complained about the number of deities. After all, for a world so large and detailed adding another deity opens up a plethora of possibilities, stories, and depth to an already indepth game world.
I never understood the complaint of so many deities...actually, I believe I never really heard of any Realms DMs or Players complain much about any detail of the Realms. The complaints always came from the designers.
Which, to me, is blatantly rude, lazy, and downright despicable. To dumb down the Realms because they don't have the energy, time, or even have any care for the Realms other than the money it brings is putting a death grip on it. I'm waiting for it to be smothered any moment (if it hasn't happened already). I believe the Living FR they got going is about the only thing possibly keeping it afloat...and the novel lines, unfortunately.
Hire some real Realms lovers to handle all that, then. There's a huge difference between letting corporate-minds run the game and settings and letting real gamers run the show. Before all this I believed many of the real gamers were in charge, especially at the dawn of 3E. However, most, if not all, have either been laid off/quit or turned corporate.
I am worried at what they'll do to future campaign lines...everything is going to get warped except for their favored child, Eberron. Greyhawk has no prayer, Dragonlance will lose its fans as much as the Realms has, Planescape veteran fans will be outraged, Ravenloft fans maybe be able to pull through...I think Dark Sun and maybe Spelljammer will do well in 4E, however. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 06:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I think Dark Sun and maybe Spelljammer will do well in 4E, however.
I don't, at least in regards to Spelljammer. As a setting, it was always kind of an odd duck. And it didn't work for a lot of people, because they either couldn't deal with space travel without thinking sci-fi, or they couldn't think of wildspace without wondering where ships got their gravity and why explosive decompression wasn't an issue. And honestly, as someone who loved the setting, I still have a bit of a hard time ignoring those same issues.
So I'd really be surprised if they revived that setting.
Not only that, but I found the official 3E adaption to be quite lacking. It stayed small-scale, and cut some of the flavor and original quirks of arcane space to avoid some of those complaints. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 07:09:30
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Dark Sun would be interesting... if it were possible to do conversions between 4E and 3.x. Since it's easier to convert the 2E stuff to 3.x, I'll just use my 2E Dark Sun source material... whenever I can arrange transportation for it. I hate not having my old gaming stuff, more so now that there isn't any commercially published material coming out that I have the slightest use for.
As far as Spelljammer goes, I liked it in 2E, but never really used it. I did rework the planar schematic to completely avoid the "phlogiston hypothesis" however. The "Material Plane" consists of isolated crystal spheres, as described in Spelljammer, but they are floating in the Astral Plane, not a sea of phlogiston in the "Material Plane," which no longer exists as a single cohesive entity. It makes things much more interesting when space travellers have to deal with githyanki attacks. In addition, using magic that allows astral travel also allows you to travel from world to world, creating a new body upon arriving at a world for the first time. When visiting another world via this method, having some form of secure storage for one's body in the world being traveled *from* is advisable, just as with any form of astral travel. Yes, I'll confess to this new mechanic being loosely inspired by "The Matrix" and similar hypotheses. Mind you, never having playtested the change, I can't say that it works 100%... but I like it more than the planar changes made with 4E. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 06 Oct 2008 07:10:34 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 08:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I think Dark Sun and maybe Spelljammer will do well in 4E, however.
I don't, at least in regards to Spelljammer. As a setting, it was always kind of an odd duck. And it didn't work for a lot of people, because they either couldn't deal with space travel without thinking sci-fi, or they couldn't think of wildspace without wondering where ships got their gravity and why explosive decompression wasn't an issue. And honestly, as someone who loved the setting, I still have a bit of a hard time ignoring those same issues.
So I'd really be surprised if they revived that setting.
Also, I don't think it's really that likely. As Brian said recently, with respect to the brief SJ references contained within the FRCG... they exist mainly because there is some historical play between both the Realms and SPELLJAMMER. But, at the same time, those references don't specifically mean that WotC is intent on designing a full version of the setting using the 4e rules set any time soon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Oct 2008 08:42:10 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:02:35
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| And it's probably important to mention that the only setting we've been "promised" so far is Eberron. All the other settings are "maybes" at this time. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:44:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And it's probably important to mention that the only setting we've been "promised" so far is Eberron. All the other settings are "maybes" at this time.
With them having pulled back the license and the simple fact it was one of the only settings that was published in 3E, I think it's safe to assume we'll see Ravenloft after Eber-whatsit. Dark Sun is another likely possibility, since they're redoing one of the novel series for that setting (perhaps as a way of testing the waters). Greyhawk is another possibility, but I'd not put money on that one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:47:14
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| True, I can tell they are "testing the waters" with some of these settings. I just don't like to jump to conclusions. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 17:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With them having pulled back the license and the simple fact it was one of the only settings that was published in 3E, I think it's safe to assume we'll see Ravenloft after Eber-whatsit. Dark Sun is another likely possibility, since they're redoing one of the novel series for that setting (perhaps as a way of testing the waters). Greyhawk is another possibility, but I'd not put money on that one.
Actually, according to "Digital Insider #6," we've learned that RAVENLOFT will likely be established using the 4e D&D rules set in this month's issue of DRAGON. From what we've been told, it won't be a separate campaign setting but, rather, something that will be "folded into the core [story]." I'm assuming this means that it'll be completely canonical according to D&D 4e. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Oct 2008 17:08:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 17:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With them having pulled back the license and the simple fact it was one of the only settings that was published in 3E, I think it's safe to assume we'll see Ravenloft after Eber-whatsit. Dark Sun is another likely possibility, since they're redoing one of the novel series for that setting (perhaps as a way of testing the waters). Greyhawk is another possibility, but I'd not put money on that one.
Actually, according to "Digital Insider #6," we've learned that RAVENLOFT will likely be established using the 4e D&D rules set in this month's issue of DRAGON. From what we've been told, it won't be a separate campaign setting but, rather, something that will be "folded into the core [story]." I'm assuming this means that it'll be completely canonical according to D&D 4e.
That sucks... I think it was better as its own setting. Especially with the aspect of being nearly impossible to get out of... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 18:20:21
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| Don't forget they pulled the license for Dragonlance back from Margaret & Co. So that is also on the list. I'd think it would be the 2010 release of choice. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 18:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Don't forget they pulled the license for Dragonlance back from Margaret & Co. So that is also on the list. I'd think it would be the 2010 release of choice.
Truth... That one also had some stuff published in 3E, didn't it? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 18:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That sucks... I think it was better as its own setting. Especially with the aspect of being nearly impossible to get out of...
I guess WotC isn't completely confident that Ravenloft setting books would sell that well? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 18:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Don't forget they pulled the license for Dragonlance back from Margaret & Co. So that is also on the list. I'd think it would be the 2010 release of choice.
Truth... That one also had some stuff published in 3E, didn't it?
WotC did the official Campaign Setting, then Sovereign Press (Weis' company) was publishing the rest as a third party OGL.
My vote's on them for the 2010 release based on the novel line alone. They are still publishing new stuff and re-releasing classics. Nice segway to bring the readers back. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 19:22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I think Dark Sun and maybe Spelljammer will do well in 4E, however.
I don't, at least in regards to Spelljammer. As a setting, it was always kind of an odd duck. And it didn't work for a lot of people, because they either couldn't deal with space travel without thinking sci-fi, or they couldn't think of wildspace without wondering where ships got their gravity and why explosive decompression wasn't an issue. And honestly, as someone who loved the setting, I still have a bit of a hard time ignoring those same issues.
So I'd really be surprised if they revived that setting.
Not only that, but I found the official 3E adaption to be quite lacking. It stayed small-scale, and cut some of the flavor and original quirks of arcane space to avoid some of those complaints.
You're probably right, and I do agree on the Polyhedron Spelljammer 3E update. It was severely lacking, I thought. I think a hardbound, one-shot campaign book would've been much better to release, with the Polyhedron as a follow-up for more content. I would love to have seen a Spelljammer 3E setting switch places with that Ghostwalk setting that never really went anywhere. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 00:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That sucks... I think it was better as its own setting. Especially with the aspect of being nearly impossible to get out of...
Indeed. I'll be curious to see just how the designers responsible for this 4e update of RAVENLOFT will address [if at all] the "impossible-to-escape-from" aspect of the Demiplane of Dread. It's one of the most important elements of the setting itself. So I'm curious to see whether it will be maintained, modified, or ignored completely. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 00:42:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Don't forget they pulled the license for Dragonlance back from Margaret & Co. So that is also on the list. I'd think it would be the 2010 release of choice.
Actually, we learned from the Whitestone Council at GenCon that there will be a 4e book for DRAGONLANCE.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Don't forget they pulled the license for Dragonlance back from Margaret & Co. So that is also on the list. I'd think it would be the 2010 release of choice.
Truth... That one also had some stuff published in 3E, didn't it?
Yes. They included some of the best sourcebooks ever published for the DRAGONLANCE setting. Though each release was often long in the coming. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 00:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
WotC did the official Campaign Setting, then Sovereign Press (Weis' company) was publishing the rest as a third party OGL.
My vote's on them for the 2010 release based on the novel line alone. They are still publishing new stuff and re-releasing classics. Nice segway to bring the readers back.
As I said above, when the announcement about the continuation of DL novels for '09 was made at GenCon, it was also announced that a 4e campaign for the world was a definite as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 12:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
. . . I'm curious to see whether it will be maintained, modified, or ignored completely.
I reckon it'll be ignored completely, to do otherwise wouldn't be 'PC friendly'  |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 12:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
. . . I just don't like to jump to conclusions.
Oooh, I love jumping to conclusions. I mean, most of the time you miss, but the feeling you get when one goes squish under your hobnailed boots can't be beaten  |
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'Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide' -- Discussion
