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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 09:32:48
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The quote below is taken from here by Garen Thal in a long response to a post by Zandilar. I have copied the whole paragraph in the hope to not take it out of context. Garen if I have misunderstood your point, please let me and/or the mods know straight away so this post can be deleted, I have no wish to stir up problems for you or anyone else, and am only commenting on what was written.
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Those characters were lovingly crafted by Ed over the last 40 years, 20 of them with the help--some public, some less so--of friends and colleagues and fans. I doubt very much that the 4E Realms will need that long to get its feet under it, but it's going to a few months, at least, to let everyone get their bearings, to let WotC realize that FR fans aren't really satisfied with the paucity of coverage and possibly do something about it, and to let FR creators (many of whom haven't seen much more of the 4E Realms than what's on the WotC site) take the lay of the land before they can convince anyone of anything.
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I find this most odd that with the release of the FRCG so close that many of team of freelance writers have yet to see anything of the 4E Realms. I understand the need to keep the project as 'tight' as possible in the early days to ensure that information does not leak out, but how can writers produce anything coherent and relevant without the background information to hand? Unless the official WoTC 4E designers are going to write heaps of work for the Realms when it is released, there might be a lack of articles to herald in the new Realms. Now I am no expert on marketing but if I was to release a printed product I would want a decent amount of digital publishing to go alongside the printed book to encourage as many people as possible to buy both. I thought this was the marketing plan for WoTC with the DDI or have I completely missed the point?
Commenting on the release of the Silver Marches for 3E Sean K Reynolds said that the Hasbro bean counters look at the first 90 days only to gauge sales and therefore the success of any project that WoTC release. (This was in response to folks at the time saying they wanted a Lore book and not a crunch book for the 3E Realms).
So if it is the case that we won't see anything from Garen et al for a few months because they haven't seen the FRCG then how does this help to sell the FRCG to those of us who are less than enthusiastic about the 4E Realms? Is it possible that the 90 day sales target deadline will be 'missed' and therefore the FRCG might be seen as a 'failure' by the bean counters, which will then (probably) impact on future DDI articles on the Realms? Meaning that WoTC won't invest anymore time or money commissioning quality work for the Realms and therefore everything published by WoTC becomes generic and core? Surely WoTC want to encourage the sceptics among us to buy the book and/or subscribe to DDI? Or are they really convinced that they will attract equal to or more new gamers to the Realms to replace those they 'lose' by removing/ignoring what makes the Realms so special? Is this really the WoTC plan, to have all settings 99% the same with just 1% that makes them special?
I can only hope that WoTC do realise their mistake and realise that there are still people out there with money to spend if they cater to those of us who prefer lore and history rather than paragon paths, new bad guys and potpourri inspired from other D&D game worlds and external brands.
Just my thoughts
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 01 Aug 2008 10:16:48
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 16:16:02
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| Well, my hope is that if sales aren't that great that they will see the error of their ways and do (what they can) to fix it. I may be wrong, but after watching many people that I know (myself included) continue to play OWoD because they do not like the flavor of NWoD (though I have heard that the rules set is better from people who have played both), I cannot but feel like that is what is going to happen to the Realms as well. I have also heard this changed compared to Dragonlance 5th Age, though I never got into the Dragonlance series, so I wouldn't know. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 17:19:21
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I think there may be some misunderstanding about my role in FR in general and FR4E in particular.
Other than my articles in Dragon (Volo's Guide, The Horde, and White Tiger Monastery), everything I have written about the Realms has been in purely behind-the-scenes, advisory capacity. It's true that I've been doing it for some time, and you'll find my name in a few places on the WotC site because of it, but I'm not, and have never been, a part of any "team of freelance writers." I hope to continue to be involved with FR into Fourth Edition, and will shortly be sending Wizards so many article proposals that Chris Youngs might need to purchase a batting helmet, but my role to this point with regard to the Forgotten Realms has been primarily in assisting other writers.
I don't know who has seen what. Obviously, Ed and Brian (James) and Eric Boyd and Robert Schwalb have seen the 4E FR material, but as a rule WotC doesn't let anyone in on upcoming products unless those products are directly necessary for another print project that the author is already attached to. There being no FR print products on the horizon past this year, there's no possibility I could be attached to such a product, and thus no reason for me to have early access to FRCG or FRPG.
I do think that articles showing off what's cool about the new Realms would help drive sales of FRCG, and I'll be doing what I can to try and get some of those articles out before those all-important 90 days are up. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 17:24:06
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| Why would WotC need FR freelance designers? They are only going to produce one more book and an adventure? For novels they have a stable of established authors. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 17:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
So if it is the case that we won't see anything from Garen et al for a few months because they haven't seen the FRCG then how does this help to sell the FRCG to those of us who are less than enthusiastic about the 4E Realms?
It won't. It seems to me that the WotC business model is that we buy what they want to sell us or go fish up a tree 
AFAIK splat books sell better than setting books. If everything becomes 'core', WotC will be able to focus on the more profitable 'splat' books. |
Edited by - arry on 01 Aug 2008 17:33:47 |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 21:42:38
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| I can assure people that WotC is in contact with freelance designers regarding FR. I've seen a few chunks of the 4E FR - everything I needed to do my work. I haven't yet signed on to do a column or write an article like the Class Chronicles series, but I've been given every indication that such articles are quite welcome. I think you can expect to see significantly more participation from freelance designers in the near future. At the moment, those of us working for WotC are rather busy with core mechanics design, but once the FR books are released, you can expect to see an increasing number of us participating in Realms design (Garen included if I get my way). |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 00:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I hope to continue to be involved with FR into Fourth Edition, and will shortly be sending Wizards so many article proposals
I do think that articles showing off what's cool about the new Realms would help drive sales of FRCG, and I'll be doing what I can to try and get some of those articles out before those all-important 90 days are up.
That is great to hear and a thank you to Eytan as well for the words of encouragement.
Lets hope we see some quality articles soon.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 18:24:40
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Okay, this is coming from a very skeptical view of human nature, but this is how I see it -
MONTHS ago the call went out for new writers for the DDi, mostly to do online Dungeon and Dragon articles. Since that time, all of the articles have either been written by in-house guys or Brian James - all ESTABLISHED designers.
No one new, as far as I know, has been 'selected' to do an article. Now, I understand that this might be a 'quality' issue... but then I remember the Headless Zhent, and KNOW thats not the case.
The current WotC team make a salary, and they get paid EXTRA for anything they do over and above their regular jobs - which includes writing assignments. Normally that means novels (which coincidently the best of those assignments they always 'reward' to themselves), but it also applies to anything on the DDi, which isn't part of the print-version D&D line.
So these guys who make the decisions can decide if some nobody they never met gets to make a little money, or if they get to put that same money in their own pocket.
Nothing for nothing, but I know what I would do - its human nature. I don't see halos around anyone's heads. If they are willing to spread the fat around, then they are "a better man then I, Gunga-Din". 
And thats why I think this 'open call' is a crock of s... stuff. 
Just my opinion mind you, but it's nearly impossible to be impartial when your own income plays a part.
Now Paizo is at least honest about it - they want to do an open-call, but they have stated that they do not have the time or resources to go through all the entries, so they are sticking with known designers ATM. However, they do host a contest, and the winner gets to produce an adventure module, so thats at least something. Crunch isn't my forte', so modules are not something I would be interested in doing, and their fluff is already all being done by some VERY top-notch people.
The other, related problem I see is that WotC (according to Brian James) insists on their articles being a mix (50/50?) of crunch and fluff now, so that leaves anyone unfamiliar with the 4e rules also out-of-the-loop. Maybe as people become more familiar with them, we will indeed see some new faces appear among the writers.
At least I hope so - I feel fans of the settng can do so much more with it then people who get paid by the word or have 'space constraints' applied to them, or don't have enough time to fully develop an idea because they are "busy on their novel". A very apt example of this is comparing Brian's Cormyr or Moonshae articles with the stuff being done in-house. When you read HIS suff, you can TELL its coming from a FAN. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Aug 2008 18:38:52 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 20:16:17
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Markustay, I'm not entirely sure that you're right about WotC designers getting paid extra for their DDi work; I know this was the case while Dragon and Dungeon were out of house at Paizo, but DDi is a whole new animal.
Keep in mind, too, that folks like me--avid vans and sometime-Dragon contributors who wanted to write more FR material--didn't have access to the necessary materials to write an article, for example, about the current going's on in the Tunlands or what Anauroch looks like now. Not having the necessary materials (or even a small base on which to assume facts), we couldn't pitch articles because we didn't even know if our region or deity had survived the switchover to 4E.
That isn't to say that no one pitched anything. But it's unfair, I think, to criticize WotC for ignoring article pitches that didn't come in in the first place. Other than a handful of people, no one outside WotC knew what the 4E Realms looked like well enough to even try writing about them. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 21:18:02
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Markustay. if it's your ambition to write for WotC, then I hope you succeed. And because I wish you good fortune, I hope you understand that to succeed, you too will need to produce material that strikes the desired balance between fluff and crunch, comes in at the desired length, and is based on 4e rules and the 4e Realms. That's just the reality of being a freelancer, particularly one who's just starting out. You have to give the publisher wants he wants.
Also, let me assure you that when you point out that publishing works partly on the basis of cronyism, you're 100% right. (So does everything else in the world.) But if you're an aspiring writer, it does no good to complain about the game being rigged.
Rather, take comfort in the fact that it's not entirely rigged, or no one new would ever break in. To offer an imperfect analogy, think of it (cronyism and the editor's inclination to go with a writer already proved reliable) as the rake in a casino poker game. The rake takes a toll on every player's bankroll, but if you play well enough, you can turn a profit anyway. And if you're serious about being a professional writer, then are many resources to teach you how to play well, both in terms of developing your craft and in terms of knowing how to network, submit your work in the proper format, and all the business stuff. For example, check out the tons of how-to books published by Writer's Digest. |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 22:17:47
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Keep in mind that the reason you haven't seen that many articles from non-established writers is turn-around time. It takes a long time for an article or column to go from being commissioned to being published. There may be people you don't know who have submitted articles and those articles are going through editing.
For example, I wrote a Dungeon adventure quite some time ago, but it has to go through art, development, copyediting, layout, proofreading, and fit into the schedule (in order not to overload or underload content). People have had even less time to work with the 4e Realms than the 4e rules, so we'll all need to be patient for a while.
Brian is one of the only people doing it because he worked on 4e Realms. While I've seen some of the 4e material, I don't think my work would be all that great at the moment in the Realms because I don't have the full picture. I have done a fair bit of work on the swordmage, but haven't touched the fluff yet.
And as Richard aptly pointed out, in order to succeed, you have to both know people and play the game (and I mean that both literally and figuratively). Aside from the actual hard work involved, you have to network with others and you have to learn what it is that the company wants. The company wants people who are both knowledge and enthusiastic about 4e and the 4e Realms (or at least those who can work with it). This means both crunch and fluff. It would be more productive to learn how to use 4e crunch, even if it isn't your forte.
Not every Realms designer is equally adept with or interested in both crunch and fluff. Personally, I like fluff, but have a much greater talent for crunch. I know Eric Boyd is quite capable in crunch, but he tends to enjoy working on Realms history the most. But when called upon to work for WotC, we both find a way to make it work for us. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
Edited by - EytanBernstein on 04 Aug 2008 15:02:22 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 06:48:11
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| Very informative (and reassuring). Thank you to all who participated in this scroll. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 10:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Very informative (and reassuring). Thank you to all who participated in this scroll.
Hear Hear! Very useful to read through this.
Thank you all
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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4E Realms freelance designers - any hope?
