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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 16:58:48
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First off, I'd like to say "Bravo!" to GR for keeping diversity alive. 3e opened-up an era of 'Freedom' and growth for the RPG industry the likes of which had never been seen before, and the only way that will continue is if companies stay independent of the all-consuming giant.
I'd like to also add I have a bad feeling that WotC is about to fire its next salvo in 'the war', and this one is going to sting a bit.
Thats all I'm going to say on that matter, but if I'm right, I have to give them Kudos for being a bunch of very clever gits. I hope I'm wrong, because I hate giving them that much credit.
Anyway, I'm expecting 4e to make some unexpected headway this year - WotC is reacting to Paizo's popularity and are finally ready to make a stand (whereas before they obviously didn't think there was any threat to their new love child, 4th edition).
I can only say that this will be good for us consumers, in that WotC may actually start to publish some decent 4e stuff, and not just try to feed us re-packaged garbage like Cthulhu and Draconians. That means the 3rd parties will have to try that much harder - before it was easy to 'trump' WotC - they really weren't trying very hard to produce good material, and they were lowering, not raising the bar.
New, higher standards at WotC means better stuff for us in the long run, no matter which system we use, so I think I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2009 17:01:21 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 17:44:25
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| Competition is great for us, because that makes all competitors try that much harder to "win" us over to their side. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 10:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I'd like to say "Bravo!" to GR for keeping diversity alive. 3e opened-up an era of 'Freedom' and growth for the RPG industry the likes of which had never been seen before, and the only way that will continue is if companies stay independent of the all-consuming giant.
I'd like to also add I have a bad feeling that WotC is about to fire its next salvo in 'the war', and this one is going to sting a bit.
Thats all I'm going to say on that matter, but if I'm right, I have to give them Kudos for being a bunch of very clever gits. I hope I'm wrong, because I hate giving them that much credit.
Anyway, I'm expecting 4e to make some unexpected headway this year - WotC is reacting to Paizo's popularity and are finally ready to make a stand (whereas before they obviously didn't think there was any threat to their new love child, 4th edition).
I can only say that this will be good for us consumers, in that WotC may actually start to publish some decent 4e stuff, and not just try to feed us re-packaged garbage like Cthulhu and Draconians. That means the 3rd parties will have to try that much harder - before it was easy to 'trump' WotC - they really weren't trying very hard to produce good material, and they were lowering, not raising the bar.
New, higher standards at WotC means better stuff for us in the long run, no matter which system we use, so I think I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
I dunno about WotC raising their standards... the business model seems to rely on web-based content whereas with Paizo I get my books and the PDFs in one package.
Also, I wouldn't get my hopes up in regard to the Realms, to scratch all the silliness now would make them appear even more unpredictable and unreliable (creative-wise) than they already are to the longtime Realms fans |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 13:32:32
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Markus can WotC make better products? Do they have the resources commited to do so?
Don't forget there are two ways to compete in business. One way is to make better products, the other way is to make life as difficult as possible for your competitors. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 14:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
Markus can WotC make better products? Do they have the resources commited to do so?
Don't forget there are two ways to compete in business. One way is to make better products, the other way is to make life as difficult as possible for your competitors.
Why not do both 
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 02:20:07
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BTW, Scott Rouse mentioned on June 6th on ENworld that the Fan Policy has been handed over to Legal and so it's in their hands on when they are going to release it.
"I asked today and was told it is with legal. No ETA was given to me." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 Jun 2009 02:21:14 |
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Nightseer
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 03:10:44
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| Fan site policy? |
Shar! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 03:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightseer
Fan site policy?
Yea, Wizards is writing one about what fan sites, like this site, can and can't use of Wizard's IP. Which is why we haven't released any of the new Compendiums, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 05:24:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
BTW, Scott Rouse mentioned on June 6th on ENworld that the Fan Policy has been handed over to Legal and so it's in their hands on when they are going to release it.
"I asked today and was told it is with legal. No ETA was given to me."
Weren't we told that months ago? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 06:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
BTW, Scott Rouse mentioned on June 6th on ENworld that the Fan Policy has been handed over to Legal and so it's in their hands on when they are going to release it.
"I asked today and was told it is with legal. No ETA was given to me."
Weren't we told that months ago?
Ayup. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nightseer
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 06:43:11
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| Ah, I see now. Compendiums? |
Shar! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Nightseer
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 09:37:46
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| Oh, now I see. |
Shar! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 15:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
BTW, Scott Rouse mentioned on June 6th on ENworld that the Fan Policy has been handed over to Legal and so it's in their hands on when they are going to release it.
"I asked today and was told it is with legal. No ETA was given to me."
Weren't we told that months ago?
Don't remember.... but maybe? Shrug.... I was reporting what he recently said to show that at least there's still some activity (kinda) about the policy... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 15:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
BTW, Scott Rouse mentioned on June 6th on ENworld that the Fan Policy has been handed over to Legal and so it's in their hands on when they are going to release it.
"I asked today and was told it is with legal. No ETA was given to me."
Weren't we told that months ago?
Don't remember.... but maybe? Shrug.... I was reporting what he recently said to show that at least there's still some activity (kinda) about the policy...
Or at least the illusion of such. I'm no longer convinced of their sincerity about producing this policy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 17:07:07
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| At least there is something NEW about what is going on with it lol. I sincerely hope they release it and it allows for more Compendiums to be released. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 18:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
At least there is something NEW about what is going on with it lol. I sincerely hope they release it and it allows for more Compendiums to be released.
Without restrictions -- if they allow such content, but add in a clause that it all belongs to them, then I for one will no longer contribute. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 20:22:21
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I think it will be worded in such a way that you can continue to develop fluff for the 'past' of FR, but not crunch. I don't think they want to stifle folks from developing ideas for the 1e/2e/3e Realms, because MANY 4e players use the old Realms, and not the new (judging by folks here, at WotC, and a couple of other forums). However, new crunch - whether past edition or new, will not be tolerated (they are keeping the 4e rules under extreme 'in-house only' lock-down, going by which sites they have 'gone after' thus far).
That means NO converting the 1e/2e/3e Realms to the 4e rules, because they want people buying-into the 4e Realms (I have a feeling it isn't working-out as good as they hoped), which includes both the DDi and the LFR.
So lore is okay, so long as we avoid rules (which is mostly what this site is all about anyway).
Thats my take, and the way I'm hoping things fall out.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jun 2009 18:39:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 20:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So lore is okay, so long as we avoid rules (which is mostly what this site is all about anyway).
Thats my take, and the way I'm hoping things fall out.
That sounds quite reasonable... We can only hope that WotC's fan site policy, when and if it arrives, will be that reasonable. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 21:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So lore is okay, so long as we avoid rules (which is mostly what this site is all about anyway).
Thats my take, and the way I'm hoping things fall out.
That sounds quite reasonable... We can only hope that WotC's fan site policy, when and if it arrives, will be that reasonable.
You also hoped 4e Realms wouldn't be as bad as us doomsayers predicted, Wooly...
I'm afraid with their corporate-mindedness they will protect their IPs with an iron fist... I just hope I'm wrong |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 21:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So lore is okay, so long as we avoid rules (which is mostly what this site is all about anyway).
Thats my take, and the way I'm hoping things fall out.
That sounds quite reasonable... We can only hope that WotC's fan site policy, when and if it arrives, will be that reasonable.
You also hoped 4e Realms wouldn't be as bad as us doomsayers predicted, Wooly...
I'm afraid with their corporate-mindedness they will protect their IPs with an iron fist... I just hope I'm wrong
Indeed... I was wrong when I gave WotC the benefit of the doubt. I'm no longer doing that. I'm not falling into the "WotC is t3h evil!" category yet, but I'm now more willing to be cynical. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 21:32:53
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| Just remember, a pessimist is disappointed when the outcome is good, while a cynic believes an outcome will be poor, but is not dejected if proven wrong. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 14:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So lore is okay, so long as we avoid rules (which is mostly what this site is all about anyway).
Thats my take, and the way I'm hoping things fall out.
The article I wrote a year ago that awaits the light of CC had a little bit of crunch in the form of regional feats (not new feats, just which ones were available as regional choices) - if need be I will simply remove the crunch (if what I have is considered crunch, IMO its not crunchy enough to be considered so, but that's up to the Policy and how it is interepreted)...itll still work though  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 19:02:47
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Like I said, so long as the articles are edition-neutral, I really don't see WotC having a problem with it. I'm still only guessing here, but Rich Baker (along with a couple of others) have made it quite clear that fan-projects help the IP by generating interest, and the last thing they would want is to tie the fans hands in some fashion (and elimuinate all the fansites, which will have a very negative backlash). I also don't see edition-neutral rules being affected (such as a random-monster generator, or a trap that delivers a D10 of damage, or a 'magical chaos' table), so long as said 'crunchy bits' can be used in any edition.
Thus far, I have only seen them 'go after' sites that use the 4e rules in some fashion. Sites with lore-only, or ones that have pre-3e rules have been left alone. I think the 3e fansite policy will address creating new rules for 3e (or earlier), but mentioning an existing rule (Feat, PrC, etc) in an article shouldn't be a problem because they are still 'legacy' to the setting.
The two 'biggies' that I see may still be a problem is NO conversions (in either direction), and whether or not fan-material becomes their property (and if such is the case, they would have already owned BRJ's GHotR, and needn't have purchased it, and we wouldn't have Brian as a designer right now).
I think they will have to put something in about 'free usage' of fan ideas, if only to protect themselves. If they come up with something similar to a homebrew idea, they don't want to get sued because the guy (or girl) thinks they "stole their idea". With the millions of people on the internet posting crap, that would open-up a whole 'nother can of worms. However, I do not believe they are evil, just self-serving (they are a busines after-all). In an instance where they take someone's material wholesale (like a complete setting or adventure), I am sure they would make arrangements to buy said material, or at least use the person in a Freelance-capacity (as they did Brian, and still use Ed).
So if they use a small piece of something someone posted, their would be no compensation (a locale, or possibly a group, etc), but if this was something much bigger, and worth the effort, they would attempt to buy the stuff and not just take it.
I personally have no problem with that, but some folks will have an issue with it. Then again, this is all conjecture anyway (based on the tiny bit Rich B. has been willing to talk about thus far concerning a fansite policy, and the legal actions taken thus-far since 4e came out). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jun 2009 19:09:26 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 19:46:53
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| Hmmm...so we might be able to produce new "old" lore and no "official" 3.x or earlier rules-stuff in conjunction with fan-projects, which suits me fine... however, this rule stuff could still be produced under the OGL-moniker and see the light of day IP-free... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 19:54:35
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| I wonder if the fansite policy may let us create lore for the IP while using OGL crunch (either from 3.5's license or Pathfinder's new license). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 21:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think they will have to put something in about 'free usage' of fan ideas, if only to protect themselves. If they come up with something similar to a homebrew idea, they don't want to get sued because the guy (or girl) thinks they "stole their idea". With the millions of people on the internet posting crap, that would open-up a whole 'nother can of worms. However, I do not believe they are evil, just self-serving (they are a busines after-all). In an instance where they take someone's material wholesale (like a complete setting or adventure), I am sure they would make arrangements to buy said material, or at least use the person in a Freelance-capacity (as they did Brian, and still use Ed).
So if they use a small piece of something someone posted, their would be no compensation (a locale, or possibly a group, etc), but if this was something much bigger, and worth the effort, they would attempt to buy the stuff and not just take it.
I personally have no problem with that, but some folks will have an issue with it. Then again, this is all conjecture anyway (based on the tiny bit Rich B. has been willing to talk about thus far concerning a fansite policy, and the legal actions taken thus-far since 4e came out).
Considering that their rules currently state that if you put anything on their site, it's entirely theirs, I'm not as willing to believe they'd work with people before taking their content.
Brian's work was a compilation. He just made timeline entries; he wasn't creating anything new. So far as I know, that kind of thing has more protection that what we do with the Compendiums. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2009 : 17:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hmmm...so we might be able to produce new "old" lore and no "official" 3.x or earlier rules-stuff in conjunction with fan-projects, which suits me fine... however, this rule stuff could still be produced under the OGL-moniker and see the light of day IP-free...
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I wonder if the fansite policy may let us create lore for the IP while using OGL crunch (either from 3.5's license or Pathfinder's new license).
Never happen.
Any lore we or any other fansite produces will have to be completely rules-free. If we use 4e rules, then we need to sign the GSL (yeah, right...), and I'm 99.9% positive that writing lore revolving around 3P (or any other 3rd-party rules) will be part of the "no-no's" of the new fansite policy. There is no way in hell they will allow there IP to be developed to another system other then 4e.
So pure 'fluffy sites' will be okay, AFAIK. Any article written in the 'Realms Past' can be considered part of 4e (history is part of a setting). For instance, Gray's articles about the Creator Races can be applied to any edition. Thats the kind of stuff they won't come after. Writing an adventure that takes place in Shadowdale but uses Pathfinder rules will get you a smack-down faster then a Kender on caffein.
And yes, they can take whatever they want from their site and use it. I don't mind the locales and what-not I have made up over there (a couple of which became canon), but there is at least two other things I discussed at least three years ago that have now made it into the 4e rules. It is entirely possible (and perhaps probable) that both ideas were cases of 'parallel development', but still... Contributing to FR for free I don't mnd, but I don't like the idea that they are also 'slumming for rules' as well.
Paizo does exactly that, with it's playtests, but they are very open about it, and if someone suggests a really good idea in their forums, they acknowledge it and put it in the playtest (so that the entire community builds the rules together). Thats a totally different way of doing things then 'skulking in the shadows' and taking notes.
I used to post tables and what-not that I have developed over the years over at WotC, including a highly-detailed combat and damage system, but I wouldn't do that now. They can take my fluff, but the crunchy bits are MINE.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2009 17:57:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2009 : 18:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Contributing to FR for free I don't mnd, but I don't like the idea that they are also 'slumming for rules' as well.
Paizo does exactly that, with it's playtests, but they are very open about it, and if someone suggests a really good idea in their forums, they acknowledge it and put it in the playtest (so that the entire community builds the rules together). Thats a totally different way of doing things then 'skulking in the shadows' and taking notes.
See, there are things I've done that I would love to see pop up in established Realmslore. I just want to have -- at the very least -- acknowledgement.
The way things are currently written for the WotC website, they can take anything at all, do what they want with it, and claim it was done entirely in house -- and the real creator(s) of the material would have absolutely no recourse at all. They'd not be able to do anything other than complain. And as long as that possibility exists, I'm not going to give them the chance to do that to me.
I don't really think they'd do that... But I'm no longer willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt on anything. They may not have any intent to take someone else's material, but the fact that they specifically gave themselves that legal option is more than a little worrisome, to me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Jun 2009 18:10:52 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2009 : 18:16:41
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| Mark, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. If we develop rules (pure and simple) with no fluff under the OGL as a seperate entity to the lore the only thing they can do is to stop the lore, not the OGL-based rules. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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4e's Game System License
