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Jemcrystal
Acolyte
5 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 19:56:04
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Still looking for people to talk about the drow with. Any subject.
My pick is the disapointment in Pharaun's loss. I thought that finger was gonna mean resurrection. And I'm sick of demons. Why did drow loose their spotlight to cambions? If you're gonna destroy men as awesome as Pharaun, Ryld, and Jeggred why not put in replacements; new drow to love. You know, kid's kitten dies so you buy the kid a dog, not a fish. Demons don't take the place of a drow. An elf might.
If only Laurell K. Hamilton wrote about drow. Then the sex wouldn't all be lesbianism.
Thank God no one's killed Jarlaxle.
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http://jemcrystal.tripod.com/ |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 01:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Still looking for people to talk about the drow with. Any subject.
My pick is the disapointment in Pharaun's loss.
Big surprise there. Last time you posted here, it was with a link to your Pharaun website. I won't bite--I don't care about him, sorry.
quote:
And I'm sick of demons. Why did drow loose their spotlight to cambions?
They didn't. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 13:56:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
If only Laurell K. Hamilton wrote about drow. Then the sex wouldn't all be lesbianism.
Did I get that? No, I think not ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 14:14:26
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I don't like this novel series, the alternate universe Khin-Oin was interesting, that's it
too many drow novels |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 16:37:14
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| I found Pharaun to be an interesting character. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 23:49:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I found Pharaun to be an interesting character.
Dunno, but to me he was just the drow male stereotype "show off 'real' power against the females who are only powerful because of their deity" type of chap. Much like what you would expect of a "cool" character played by young adult male player. Doing all the clever and nifty stuff and upsetting the ruling female hierarchy as much as possible. But maybe that's just me. IMHO, Valas is the best male drow character I ever came across - and not because he could jump on that giants back and the like. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 09:08:00
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To through in my two cents, no matter how that furthers this decision:
I think for us 'guys' Pharaun was also an interesting character for his unusual liason partner!  
Now, leaving that aside for the moment, I liked most parts of that series. At times it got a little slow in development and the tention built down but overall it was a wonderful readto me. I esp. liked the fact that quite a bit of the events take place in various parts of hte underdark. It was interesting to see how new others would go about discribing tis very special part of hte Realms. I thinkthey did a great job. At least I had an easy time to grasp this special mood....
Back to Pharaun - his death was disappointing to me as well. At first thoigh i was hoping to see him again in future novels (such as the Gossamer Plain where we can read about Pharauns liason partner again). However, by now I doubt that this will happen, esp. with 4th Ed chages and all that.
We still have the Lady Penitent series... without Pharaun but at least with some other major characters from the WotS-series. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 12 Jun 2008 09:12:20 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 14:02:08
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| Ach well, he'd be spellplagued anyways. Valas will hang on though ... though I am not sure whether he'll be a lurker or a controller or ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 15:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Ach well, he'd be spellplagued anyways.
Sad but most likely true... From this perspective knowing him to be dead is a so much more comforting.
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 12 Jun 2008 15:40:21 |
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Jemcrystal
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 16:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
too many drow novels
I can count all the drow novels ever made on my fingers and toes. When drow novels out number the stars in the heavens I'll consider acquiesce.
I feel bad about raging about the cambions being spotlight instead of drow now. I do love Allisza and Vhok. And every being right down the the merfolk.
I'm reading "The Gossamer Plain" now.
Pharaun was exciting. Kill Pharaun, kill excitement. Simple. Ryld was intriguing. His death - another step toward boredom. Gromph and Jarlaxle are still alive but no one is writing about them. I wont even touch Drizzt. If you've read him and don't understand his place in the multiuniverse your dumb.
Female drow make good background noise. Wonderful palace pampered brats. Not as interresting as the men.
My hopes ride on To'sun and Pharaun's progeny. Without these two I would leave the Forgotten Realms section of the bookstore and wander back over to vampire fic.
I play a game called World of Warcraft. Since I run into names like Ryld (spelled every way imaginable - one guy in my guild even) and Pharaun and all the other drow, I am not convinced I am the only one feeling the loss. Further, being a member of the real life Bregan D'aerthe sinks the nail in. Every day I meet a new drow follower.
We're hungry for more books. Very hungry. |
http://jemcrystal.tripod.com/ |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 16:59:19
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And those of us who aren't drow uberfans are tired of drow novels. We've had more novels about or featuring drow than any other race in the Realms, except for humans. Based on just the novels, you'd think drow were the second most populous race in the Realms.
We've had 20+ drow novels. We are not hungry. We are stuffed. Many of us are now flat out nauseous. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 23:51:42
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Indeed. Personally, I've always fancied the race, but enough is enough. There's plenty of drow material to enjoy, and they've had more than their share of the limelight. There's simply not a whole lot more to tell. We've seen a wide array of different drow cities and communities, plenty of characters, and pretty much all the faiths. We know how the Lolthites are, we know how the Vhaeraunians are, we know how the Eilistreaans are, and the City of the Spider Queen gives us a glimpse of Kiaransaleen action too. Selvetarm is outright dull. The only thing I'm missing is a great cult of Ghaunadaurians.
I'd love to have seen more novels focusing on elves in elven communities, myself. I don't think there ever were any, apart from the Last Mythal series and Evermeet? Though the former was about lame fiend elves and you can't find the latter anywhere anymore, at least no in Europe. Not unless you buy it online from someone. Such a shame, I would've loved to read it.
A book on Gold Dwarves would've been great fun, too. But alas, it's too late now. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 00:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
A book on Gold Dwarves would've been great fun, too. But alas, it's too late now.
Or a book that included a whole gnomish community, rather than just one or two here and there. I never really got a good feeling for FR gnomes. And it is possible I never will.  |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 01:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
A book on Gold Dwarves would've been great fun, too. But alas, it's too late now.
Or a book that included a whole gnomish community, rather than just one or two here and there. I never really got a good feeling for FR gnomes. And it is possible I never will.
I'd love a novel about gnomes...
I'd love to write a novel about gnomes...
(all pre-spellplague, of course...)
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 09:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
A book on Gold Dwarves would've been great fun, too. But alas, it's too late now.
Or a book that included a whole gnomish community, rather than just one or two here and there. I never really got a good feeling for FR gnomes. And it is possible I never will.
I'd love a novel about gnomes...
I'd love to write a novel about gnomes...
(all pre-spellplague, of course...)
Help yourself to Soldiers of Ice then. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 17:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
I feel bad about raging about the cambions being spotlight instead of drow now.
The "spotlight" in what, the whole setting? Definitely not! Those cambions now have their own novel series. So what? Should all books be about drow? There are other parts of the setting people are interested in besides drow.
And drow should NOT be the stars of the setting.
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Gromph and Jarlaxle are still alive but no one is writing about them.
Aren't you aware of RAS's Sellsword series?
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If you've read him and don't understand his place in the multiuniverse your dumb.
Now you're flaming people here? That's unacceptable.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 02:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
If you've read him and don't understand his place in the multiuniverse your dumb.
There's really no need for this type of language Jemcrystal. It's highly inappropriate. I suggest you read over the Candlekeep Code of Conduct entries concerning Forum Conduct.
Please be more respectful to your fellow scribes and their reading habits in the future.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 03:45:43
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I hate the drow so much. Their continued worship of Lloth when in the end the amount to nothing but slaves, and not even particularly valued, makes little sense to me. That any more than the occasional drow asks "You know what, why am I doing this?" is insulting, especially considering their chaotic and evil nature. That those who worship good deities, it's understandable why they'd place themselves in second seat positions. Few females do well, though perhaps that one in a million shot is worth it? Some people play the lottery I guess. But the males...it never occurs to them over several hundred years they'll never be anything more than a foot stool? I find that ridiculous that so few realize this, especially the mages where this information is freely available (what, never asked about the afterlife and how much it's going to suck to be you?). I do understand how they have little choice in which deity they worship, but I'd expect much more lip service being paid to Lloth than actual worship by a majority of drow, and far more females being killed by males. I don't know how it's reconciled that a race of chaotic evil beings is content living in an iron fisted tyranny, the most capable schemers never scheme against their oppressors but instead scheme for them...ugh, just doesn't make sense. Of course, the War of the Spider Queen series clearly indicated that the drow are pretty happy being lap dogs to the priestesses. Pathetic. Well, at least their slaves weren't such spinless cowards.
But, like demons, I'll go ahead and accept that they are short sighted and incredibly idiotic generally. It's in their nature, well 80% of their nature.
For all of the above, I'd merely dislike them. But the novels have driven it beyond that. It seriously bothers me that in every novel every drow is like superman among the surface races. Nearly every time there's a drow in a novel, it struts about with near impunity scheming and killing effortlessly...until another drow stops them. It's ridiculous.
I'm sorry, my bad. I just can't even stand these guys as a whole. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 08:08:49
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| dirtywick: very good summary of the drow condition as a whole... as seen in the Realms... it's like someone took an idea that was once cool in the 80s or early 90s, and decided to beat the dead horse beyond skeletal recognition. Smart dark elves would not walk in foreign lands with such impunity: in my Realms, they only do the peacock strutting beyond guarded halls and behind secured gates. The Ed Greenwood saying found in the old "Drow of the Underdark" book, "a drow looks forward because he is scared to look behind and get stabbed in the front" is very true in my Realms. They check, re-check, and double-check. The dumb ones get mugged by slaves in the slums or die from a thick Dalesman arrow. I hate them too: and in game mechanics, they are inferior at equal ECL. They basically are only good for DMs, not players (who would you feel safer with? a fighter 10 human or a fighter 8 drow?) The +2 level adjust is pathetic... in the novels, drow should get smacked by good old farmer boys more often... especially the dumbass ones who feel entitled to the surface now... (Jaelre and Auzkovyn, anyone? I hate these morons...) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 11:59:36
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Just speak for yourself ;). Drow, if played and used by the "good" books give you a lot of pleasure. You'd have to realise, of course, that they were and are described as they are meant to be "right now". And that "right now" is true for D&D, AD&D, D&D 3E and D&D 4 bEginners. That there is a background story that stretches over 12,000odd years is unfortunate in this respect. Anyway, the lore gives you enough ideas on why the drow society works like it does and survives. Whether you or someone else feel that this is illogical or not does not exactly matter. You see, Mayas and Inka sacrificed children and whatnot and deemed it perfectly fine. These days, we may have wee bit of trouble agreeing to this. But then again, we do not live in their society nor have that much a clue on how it actually worked. The novels only scratch on the surface of drow society and making assumption from that is usually not very fruitful. But to each his/her own.
But since you asked, I'd take the drow fighter any day. Nay, any night! I really love to watch the faces of the wizards hurling lightning bolts and fireballs and ray of enfeeblements at me, broad grins of glee for expecting woeful saves and all ... and they all may well be bitterly disappointed. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 14 Jun 2008 12:01:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 16:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
I play a game called World of Warcraft. Since I run into names like Ryld (spelled every way imaginable - one guy in my guild even) and Pharaun and all the other drow, I am not convinced I am the only one feeling the loss. Further, being a member of the real life Bregan D'aerthe sinks the nail in. Every day I meet a new drow follower.
I have a Bloodelf named Pharaun on Bronzbeard. 
I HATED the ending of WotSQ - it was almost as if that part wasn't written in, and then someone in charge looked it over and said "wait... Pharaun was supposed to die at some point..." and the author went back and penciled it in real quick. It served NO purpose what-so-ever, except to get rid of the character so future authors could not use him for anything, which is a VERY stupid reason to kill off such an intriguing character. I have to say that I forced myself through that series (the different styles of writing by the various authors made it a chore for me) BECAUSE of Pharaun, and that ending made me wish I had never read the thing. Anyone know an MIB agent that could mind-wipe that for me?
Ryld was okay, but I took him as a Zaknafein knock-off.
I love Drow - REAL Drow - Liriel was cool because she really wasn't all that good - she was pretty damn neutral, and aside from her affection toward Fyodor (does every angsty Drow get a Wulgar companion?), she behaved in a very self-serving way throughout the series (until the end). Thats what made that series great - it ended with an epiphany, not a bunch of useless deaths (but it did have 'good' deaths). Liriel was believable because she could be cruel, like any other Drow, but not without provocation.
On the other hand, Drizzt USED TO BE cool, and he was a pretty scarey dude. Back in the early novels I would have been afraid to fight him... now I'd just hand him a tissue and tell him to "cry me a river". He's become so sappy I skip over ALL of the Italicized text now. Unfortunely, RAS is following the same exact pattern with Artemis. He should have made him a Vampire to save his arse for 4e instead of a Half-Shade (if there even is such a thing); at least he would have gotten his 'cool' back. Going back to Calimshan to avenge his dead mother against a corrupt priesthood? Maybe in another setting and by another character, but it just didn't work for me there.
Hopefully, RAS will learn from his mistakes and keep Jarlaxle a self-serving, devil-may-care Rogue, without any of that tear-jerker baggage. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jun 2008 16:24:06 |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 20:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Anyway, the lore gives you enough ideas on why the drow society works like it does and survives. Whether you or someone else feel that this is illogical or not does not exactly matter.
It matters to me?
quote:
You see, Mayas and Inka sacrificed children and whatnot and deemed it perfectly fine. These days, we may have wee bit of trouble agreeing to this. But then again, we do not live in their society nor have that much a clue on how it actually worked. The novels only scratch on the surface of drow society and making assumption from that is usually not very fruitful. But to each his/her own.
It's not that I don't agree...it is perfecly fine they use ritual sacrifices as a part of their religion. Rather the stark difference between the Mayans and the Drow is ignorance. If you thought the sun was going to go out if you didn't feed it blood, I'd imagine a lot of people would agree that it's a good idea to do so willingly. The drow sacrifice to please their ridiculous Goddess for no greater benefit; it benefits the only the elite upper class minority, the priestesses. And it's not like the majority has no means of fighting back like many societies with iron fisted dictators; they're given, if the novels are to be trusted, the best training, weapons, and magic ever concieved to the point that they are literally unstoppable.
You can't have it both ways. They're either cunning, intelligent, knowledgable, and powerful, at which point serving priestesses to no benefit to yourself and a Goddess that will never reward you seems completely contradictory to their self serving, cold and calculated, murderous nature. Vhaerun is right over there, guys.
But that's fine I suppose.
It's the "we're invincible" portrayal in the novels that gets me, and not only that but they seem fully aware that they are superior to everyone in every way, which just begs for poetic justice. I had high hopes for Fyodor in giving them what they had coming. Literally, when I began the book I was like <i>finally!</i> this guy is going to kill him some drow, but even he was bested more often than not. Good thing he had another drow with him, but nothing can stop a drow but another drow. Because they're clearly better than everyone else in every way.
I'm sorry, it just gets on my nerves. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 21:16:38
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Mayans and the Drow, while one should not too much comparision between RW and the Realms.
Mayans did see the Sun rise and there is some indication that often there were willing sacifices, seeking heaven.
Drow following Lolth also know magic works, it works far better then any RW magic I know of.
Drow clerics know they need to have the good will of their diety in order to get spells, so the sacifices are more for the good of the individial to hold control of power.
There is also the theart that Lolth offers all of her followers. The test that can occur at any time and sometimes more then once of being fit to be a Drow follower. Failure of the test and the Drow becomes a Drider something no Drow wants to happen to them.
I suspect most Lolthian Drow given the choice of a clean death or being transformed into a Drider would select the fommer. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 14 Jun 2008 21:20:19 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 10:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Anyway, the lore gives you enough ideas on why the drow society works like it does and survives. Whether you or someone else feel that this is illogical or not does not exactly matter.
It matters to me?
It depends on whether you are arguing on the FR drow as they are or whether you are arguing on your drow. For the former, the stystem they have adopted seems to work, somehow, for the better part of 12,000 years on the run. So whatever we think about it, good, bad, ugly, impossible ... it works.
Of course, it is "made" to work in this fantasy setting ... something we should never loose sight of. So we can go into finer details here and argue about this and that and what is impossible or not, there is a deus-ex-machine at work here telling us it is working. So I for one would not spend too much life energy on such theories.
quote:
quote:
You see, Mayas and Inka sacrificed children and whatnot and deemed it perfectly fine. These days, we may have wee bit of trouble agreeing to this. But then again, we do not live in their society nor have that much a clue on how it actually worked. The novels only scratch on the surface of drow society and making assumption from that is usually not very fruitful. But to each his/her own.
It's not that I don't agree...it is perfecly fine they use ritual sacrifices as a part of their religion. Rather the stark difference between the Mayans and the Drow is ignorance.
How do you know?
quote:
If you thought the sun was going to go out if you didn't feed it blood, I'd imagine a lot of people would agree that it's a good idea to do so willingly. The drow sacrifice to please their ridiculous Goddess for no greater benefit; it benefits the only the elite upper class minority, the priestesses.
Oh no! It benefits everyone because Lolth demands that her kin survives and to keep protecting her kin, she demands sacrifices and obedience. The priestesses are the "pharaohs" of this society, well in a way. And there are plenty of them about. Apart from that, any female drow has some sort of rank too and is willing to pay hommage and thanks for that "power".
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You can't have it both ways. They're either cunning, intelligent, knowledgable, and powerful, at which point serving priestesses to no benefit to yourself and a Goddess that will never reward you seems completely contradictory to their self serving, cold and calculated, murderous nature.
If you think so. I'd suggest re-reading WotSQ and take a special interest in Valas and how he views and behaves in this society.
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Vhaerun is right over there, guys.
I'm sorry, but Vhaeraun and his lot is just the Lolthites turned upside down genderwise. There is no gender equality and from what I have read no change in behaviour and attitude amongst the drow "because" of him being the patron. A IMHO common misconception by the Lolth-haters. Hence, I always advocated that the drow in game - if there were changes needed - should be somewhat "de-religionized" rather than having all but two deities slain.
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It's the "we're invincible" portrayal in the novels that gets me, and not only that but they seem fully aware that they are superior to everyone in every way, which just begs for poetic justice.
That's the part the heroes (i.e. PCs) shall play, you know. There is a reason why the drow are portrayed as they are.
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I had high hopes for Fyodor in giving them what they had coming. Literally, when I began the book I was like <i>finally!</i> this guy is going to kill him some drow, but even he was bested more often than not.
Because while on the surface a human Ftr 9 (Heroes' Lorebook) is a serious opponent, in a realm where people make a living out of survival, battle, and cunning for an average of five times as long as Fyodor lives, he's just one of many. And being a fighter, he's always bound to lose when faced by spellhurlers of equal power - not least in an environment not his own.
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Good thing he had another drow with him, but nothing can stop a drow but another drow. Because they're clearly better than everyone else in every way.
You should a) read more novels on them, and b ) don't take them all too seriously. Novel heroes are meant to behave like they do, the drow as well. Going by Swords of Dragonfire, which I'm reading right now, the sort of mass slaughter handed out to Purple Dragons, War Wizards and Zhentarim (Hope Malla Hooded One does not convey this to ED  ) puts many a slaughter commited by drow in ... say RAS's novel into shade.
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I'm sorry, it just gets on my nerves.
The problem is that there is a comparatively large amount of books on drow currently out there and it seems that they are dominating here, there and everywhere. But they are not, for most events are either drow-centric (WotSQ) or very localized. A large part of the Drizzt novels haven't got anything to do with the drow as such as well. And if this Drizzt and Jarlaxle chap do extraordinary things it is because they are more often than not power-wise heads and shoulders above their compatriots and opponents. All that is necessary is to keep an objective view on the matter. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 17:15:50
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Originally posted by Zanan
It depends on whether you are arguing on the FR drow as they are or whether you are arguing on your drow. For the former, the stystem they have adopted seems to work, somehow, for the better part of 12,000 years on the run. So whatever we think about it, good, bad, ugly, impossible ... it works.
Of course, it is "made" to work in this fantasy setting ... something we should never loose sight of. So we can go into finer details here and argue about this and that and what is impossible or not, there is a deus-ex-machine at work here telling us it is working. So I for one would not spend too much life energy on such theories.
That means I should like it?
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How do you know?
That the drow aren't ignorant? In a world where you can commune with demons and devils, and the Gods themselves, pleading ignorance is awfully difficult.
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Oh no! It benefits everyone because Lolth demands that her kin survives and to keep protecting her kin, she demands sacrifices and obedience. The priestesses are the "pharaohs" of this society, well in a way. And there are plenty of them about. Apart from that, any female drow has some sort of rank too and is willing to pay hommage and thanks for that "power".
If you think so. I'd suggest re-reading WotSQ and take a special interest in Valas and how he views and behaves in this society.
I'm sorry, but Vhaeraun and his lot is just the Lolthites turned upside down genderwise. There is no gender equality and from what I have read no change in behaviour and attitude amongst the drow "because" of him being the patron. A IMHO common misconception by the Lolth-haters. Hence, I always advocated that the drow in game - if there were changes needed - should be somewhat "de-religionized" rather than having all but two deities slain.
Exactly! It makes perfect sense for the few priestesses to worship Lloth; they gain much and hold a lot of power. Likewise, you'd expect males of a similar mindset to worship Vhaerun, because, well, it benefits them more. Alright, but those who can't because of the vice grip the females have on the drow in general in indoctrinating Lloth...aren't these guys supposed to be masters of saying one thing and doing another? They wouldn't be more like "yeah, whatever" but smart enough to keep my mouth shut like I do when my wife makes me go to church?
But not only that, but now Lloth is a greater deity. She must have a heck of a lot of worshippers. Who and why, who and why...it doesn't make sense.
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That's the part the heroes (i.e. PCs) shall play, you know. There is a reason why the drow are portrayed as they are.
Man, it'd be nice if they included some of the heroes in the books!
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Because while on the surface a human Ftr 9 (Heroes' Lorebook) is a serious opponent, in a realm where people make a living out of survival, battle, and cunning for an average of five times as long as Fyodor lives, he's just one of many. And being a fighter, he's always bound to lose when faced by spellhurlers of equal power - not least in an environment not his own.
Yep, another non-drow loser.
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You should a) read more novels on them, and b ) don't take them all too seriously. Novel heroes are meant to behave like they do, the drow as well. Going by Swords of Dragonfire, which I'm reading right now, the sort of mass slaughter handed out to Purple Dragons, War Wizards and Zhentarim (Hope Malla Hooded One does not convey this to ED ) puts many a slaughter commited by drow in ... say RAS's novel into shade.
haha read more novels on them. I've read at least a dozen of them and am tired of the same formula over and over and over again, which is kind of the whole point. Seriously, if over a dozen books about drow isn't enough for me to form an opinion...well it is enough.
Really I'm not taking them that seriously. Stating I hate novels about drow because of X, Y, and Z is hardly an overreaction. Matter of fact, I am (was) finishing up the Lady Pentient, and I'll show you the straw that broke the camels back:
"A spider descended from a branch above, and landed on gem-dusted hair. It crawled down an ebon cheek and across parted lips.
It began to spin it's web."
I put the book down. That was it for me. I'm washing my hands of the whole thing.
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The problem is that there is a comparatively large amount of books on drow currently out there and it seems that they are dominating here, there and everywhere. But they are not, for most events are either drow-centric (WotSQ) or very localized. A large part of the Drizzt novels haven't got anything to do with the drow as such as well. And if this Drizzt and Jarlaxle chap do extraordinary things it is because they are more often than not power-wise heads and shoulders above their compatriots and opponents. All that is necessary is to keep an objective view on the matter.
Yes, thank you. That is exactly the problem (you'll recall I stated twice that I had beef with the novels, aside from a few non-sensical thematic aspects). Every time I pick up a drow novel they're killing everything and never lose. It's very lame and boring. Frankly I'm tired of it. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 23:56:23
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It's late, so just a quick reply.
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Originally posted by dirtywick
But not only that, but now Lloth is a greater deity. She must have a heck of a lot of worshippers. Who and why, who and why...it doesn't make sense.
First, Vhaeraun isn't a deity that well known amongst the populace of most drow cities. Nor are that many other deities. There is a hardcore inquisition in Lolthite cities and as far as we know, there are only a handful of drow cities (of some 40 in total) who are not Lolth dominated. Since you know what that means, you'll know why nigh all drow (as a race) pay hommage to the Spider Queen. And hommage alone is also giving a deity power, whether the worshipper is a diehard Lolthite or not.
The number of worshippers and their relevance to a deiy's ranking and power is something that only became relevant in 1358, i.e. after the Time of Troubles. This number is but one factor of many, for e.g. the elemental deities like Akadi or Grumbar also do not sport thousands of worshippers on Toril, yet are greater deities.
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That's the part the heroes (i.e. PCs) shall play, you know. There is a reason why the drow are portrayed as they are.
Man, it'd be nice if they included some of the heroes in the books!
But they do. They are wiser than to barge into drow cities though, for reasons given above.
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Because while on the surface a human Ftr 9 (Heroes' Lorebook) is a serious opponent, in a realm where people make a living out of survival, battle, and cunning for an average of five times as long as Fyodor lives, he's just one of many. And being a fighter, he's always bound to lose when faced by spellhurlers of equal power - not least in an environment not his own.
Yep, another non-drow loser.
Pretty strange an assumption.
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You should a) read more novels on them, and b ) don't take them all too seriously. Novel heroes are meant to behave like they do, the drow as well. Going by Swords of Dragonfire, which I'm reading right now, the sort of mass slaughter handed out to Purple Dragons, War Wizards and Zhentarim (Hope Malla Hooded One does not convey this to ED ) puts many a slaughter commited by drow in ... say RAS's novel into shade.
haha read more novels on them. I've read at least a dozen of them and am tired of the same formula over and over and over again, which is kind of the whole point. Seriously, if over a dozen books about drow isn't enough for me to form an opinion...well it is enough.
There are enough examples in novels where drow do not end up as winners.
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Really I'm not taking them that seriously. Stating I hate novels about drow because of X, Y, and Z is hardly an overreaction. Matter of fact, I am (was) finishing up the Lady Pentient, and I'll show you the straw that broke the camels back:
"A spider descended from a branch above, and landed on gem-dusted hair. It crawled down an ebon cheek and across parted lips.
It began to spin it's web."
I put the book down. That was it for me. I'm washing my hands of the whole thing.
You do agree that this was an (as in: ONE) author's take on the drow? I do not agree with Lisa's depiction of Lolth or Kiaransalee either, but the author does not present a view of e.g. the society on the whole, just focuses on this or that.
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The problem is that there is a comparatively large amount of books on drow currently out there and it seems that they are dominating here, there and everywhere. But they are not, for most events are either drow-centric (WotSQ) or very localized. A large part of the Drizzt novels haven't got anything to do with the drow as such as well. And if this Drizzt and Jarlaxle chap do extraordinary things it is because they are more often than not power-wise heads and shoulders above their compatriots and opponents. All that is necessary is to keep an objective view on the matter.
Yes, thank you. That is exactly the problem (you'll recall I stated twice that I had beef with the novels, aside from a few non-sensical thematic aspects). Every time I pick up a drow novel they're killing everything and never lose. It's very lame and boring. Frankly I'm tired of it.
You do have an idea about the actual levels of the drow "heroes" in those dozen novels you read and the levels of those who cross them? WotC was kind enough to give us the stats for most of them, hence one can actually put it into perspective. If one cares to look. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 15 Jun 2008 23:58:20 |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 01:31:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
You do agree that this was an (as in: ONE) author's take on the drow? I do not agree with Lisa's depiction of Lolth or Kiaransalee either, but the author does not present a view of e.g. the society on the whole, just focuses on this or that.
I said it was the straw that broke the camel's back. You think after reading over a dozen novels specifically about the drow I came upon that one example and it completely reversed my outlook?
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You do have an idea about the actual levels of the drow "heroes" in those dozen novels you read and the levels of those who cross them? WotC was kind enough to give us the stats for most of them, hence one can actually put it into perspective. If one cares to look.
To be fair, I don't think it makes for enjoyable reading, so their stat blocks are irrelevant. Why do those dozen novels all contain high level heroes who can't be touched as the norm?
It's tiresome. It's not fun for me to read about them knowing they're practically invincible and probably going to survive the entire series unless another drow gets a hold of them because nothing else could possibly present a challenge, just because it's a drow and they're all cool and awesome and stuff. You can disagree, whatever. I merely stated what I thought of the drow after reading enough novels to get a pretty good picture and why I don't like them (you can't say I didn't give them a chance, I spent at least $50 giving them a chance), and why I'm just tired of them. This really isn't something where you can prove me wrong or explain away. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 08:33:15
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
To be fair, I don't think it makes for enjoyable reading, so their stat blocks are irrelevant. Why do those dozen novels all contain high level heroes who can't be touched as the norm?
It's tiresome. It's not fun for me to read about them knowing they're practically invincible and probably going to survive the entire series unless another drow gets a hold of them because nothing else could possibly present a challenge, just because it's a drow and they're all cool and awesome and stuff. You can disagree, whatever. I merely stated what I thought of the drow after reading enough novels to get a pretty good picture and why I don't like them (you can't say I didn't give them a chance, I spent at least $50 giving them a chance), and why I'm just tired of them. This really isn't something where you can prove me wrong or explain away.
Now wait. I haven't got a clue which novels compose your dozen, but if it comprises WotSQ, LP and the Liriel series, which happen to be an exact dozen in total, we're speaking of high-level chaps being mostly up against folk of half their level. Why? Because they are bound on a hunt to save their respective cities, deities and what have you. That was the point of these series ... well, Liriel was just on an epic quest, nothing to do with city- or deity-saving there. Nonetheless, she's level 14 methinks, which is head and shoulders above many she met. Such facts shed some sort of perspective on the novels, whether the reader likes it or not.
Same with Drizzt. He started of a 17th level fighter, was turned into a 16th level ranger and now has been re-build according to 3E into a fighter 10 / barbarian 1 / ranger 5 (or the like). Guess what happens if he falls upon a dozen 1st or 2nd level orc warriors (which he does in the novels)? In that respect, the current authors should get applauded to keep an eye on the rules as well as a good story (though the latter lies in the eye of the beholder).
Same with Artemis, Jarlaxle and a lot of other folk, i.e. the heroes and heroines of the novels. If you want less powerful folk, help yourself to e.g. Maiden of Pain, where we have a Loviatar priestess of about level 3 as a hero.
Still, as I said above, many novels these days utilize heroes roundabout 10th level, which is about 5 levels above the common populace of Faerūn. Hence, nigh all novel heroes do something "spectacular" ... until they run into people even more "spectacular", whether these are icones like Elminster, Dove or Manshoon, or said drow, who happen to be more powerful than most, as they are twice or thrice as old as the heroes and have lived a life of warfare and training lasting equally long. It would be unreal if they would succumb to the odd wandering hero in their droves. BTW, the same would be true for say elves from Evermeet ... and as it happens, the Last Mythal series actually goes along that line.
Now, rest assured, I don't want to talk the drow up here. If you don't like them or these novels, so be it. Still, in perspective, there is no wonder that in the series above the drow rule. For a) it was the authors' intent, and b ) they are rule-wise capable of doing so.
Just reading Swords of Eveningstar and those Knight of Myth Drannor, level-wise roundabout 8 to 10, playing havoc amongst the Zhentarim and Purple Dragons and War Wizards. Why? Because they are roughly 4 levels above them (and meant to be that good). Until someone of power steps in (i.e. War Wizards of level 10+, Vangerdahast, Elminster, Khelben and Co.). That's the way of the rules and the novels. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 16 Jun 2008 08:42:56 |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2008 : 23:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Now, rest assured, I don't want to talk the drow up here. If you don't like them or these novels, so be it. Still, in perspective, there is no wonder that in the series above the drow rule. For a) it was the authors' intent, and b ) they are rule-wise capable of doing so.
I agree, and this is the large part of the problem. The authors intend for the drow to be super powerful, and they don't include any lesser ones to catch a beat down. What that does is creates this perception that ALL drow are super powerful. I can't think of any other evil organization or race that gets it so good; even in the Year of the Rogue Dragons series the heroes were smacking around dragons by the dozens! Throw some drow at them, though, and I bet they wouldn't have fared so well. Just saying, they definately get preferential treatment by the Realms authors.
You did get the books right, by the way. Of course I've read some Salvatore, which isn't much different but there's far less focus on the drow in general outside of...Sojourn, Exile? Whatever that series is called.
Hopefully that will change with the latest developments. Corellon Larethian won't be such a push over. Well, hopefully not, can't discount the author's intent. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2008 : 09:30:07
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| what did the drow look like before they fell |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Drow
