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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2002 : 05:04:09
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Is anyone else a bit tired of Elminster the Invincible, also known as He Who Is Never In Any Real Danger Even When He Is In Hell? It just seems a bit tiring...there has never been anyone that was even a close match to him....not liches, not dragons, not demons or gods or even the almighty Manshoon (whom, one may note, Elminster can simply drop in on completely un-noticed, disguised as a rug...).
Other Realms characters who are rumored to be invincible (Drizzt Do'Urden, Arilyn Moonblade, The Blackstaff, etc.) always come across nearly insurmountable odds and almost never escape unharmed (Drizzt even "died" recently).
I know that the Realms sort of has to have a "signature character", but I also know that my own gaming sessions have shifted in their adoption of an almighty archmage to that of the aforementioned Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun - a character with nearly equal power, but with a much more human quality that makes him more interesting.
Elminster of course has his predecessors, but even the likes of Gandalf and Merlin had opponents worthy of their time.....we have yet to see that in the Sage of Shadowdale.
To each their own, I suppose...
"Wine is only sweet to happy men." Keats
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2002 : 21:56:46
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I never really liked Elminster (no offense to Ed Greenwood  ) and I think that way that many characters from novels are protrayed, it just makes your average adventurer appear to be no more than a kitted-up commoner!
Although the Realms is magic-heavy, I think that its TOO heavy, in particular when reading the Return of the Archmages novels where a lot of high-level characters became involved, it all seemed a little silly in places. Anyway, I dont want to go on about those novels here but I just think that characters like Elminster and Khelben shouldnt be seen as invincible.......Chosen of Mystra or not!
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Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2002 : 06:44:35
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Well like it or not. This is a fantasy universe where anything can happen. This isn't the real world, and that's the whole point of it isn't it? To escape from the real world where such things are quite impossible. As to Elminster being invincible...Nah....If you wanna get rid of him get rid of Mystra lol jk.
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox? |
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barca
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2002 : 04:06:32
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I sort of agree with you Arion, many of the NPC's of the Realms really are annoying and make it difficult tojustify sending your PCs off an an important adventure (you kinda of think-why cant Elminster save the day-or Storm or etc...)
Elminster is pretty annoying-all good with no real flaws to make him interesting, human.And no one can touch him-he has no great enemy to threaten him.
Now myself I never really read the novels-I like rpgs but was never a big fan of fantasy lit. except Tolkein. So the novel characterizations have never come into play in my campaigns-except where they enter the "canon" of published game materials.
Anyway, I like to make my PCs the focus of the adventure- for the most part they wouldnt run into someone like Elminster.But in my current campaign, my fairly low level party has discovered an artifact in a dungeon. Through a series of events they discover the history of Faerun's been changed- the Zhentarim rule almost everywhere. Why? An ambitious Zhent mage used the found relic(a Netherese artifact) to go back in time to the kingdom of Athalantar and kill the boy Elminster(time travel in FR may be impossible but its my campaign).
So my PCs have to go back in time and prevent the HELPLESS Elminster from being killed. Tampering with time was the only way I could get any real use out of the Sage of Shadowdale.
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2002 : 22:14:59
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Excuse me but I would prefer if you didn't mock a senior harper and companion of Khalid and Jaheria.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2002 : 22:55:14
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No offense to any of you antiElminster guys but I'd to see you fight ogre hoards without him
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2002 : 23:14:06
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In half-agreement to Barca said, an enemy of the harpers is an enemy of Elminster, even if he has no paticular vendetta.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2002 : 01:29:43
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Speaking strictly from a non-roleplay, fiction-only perspective....
To clarify my previous statements, I was in no way mocking Faerun, the Harpers, or anything for that matter...I simply feel that as a character, as a stereotype and as the "unofficial spokesperson of the Realms", Elminster is predictable and boring.
Indeed, King-Tiax, Elminster CAN single-handedly deal with a hoard of orcs...that is the problem. To make matters worse, I am sure that he can do that all the while battling the entirety of the Nine Hells, smiting the Zhents, flirting with Mystra and laying waste to Thay. No, I do not enjoy reading about a character who has NO nemesis worth his time what so ever...
Conflict is the CORE of drama and fiction. Without it, you have nothing. Greenwood HIMSELF has even admitted that the character and the stories around him are battle-heavy, explsion-prone and nearly without dialogue or character development (see the WOTC interview on their website), let alone are without any REAL sense of danger to Elminster at all. He attributes this to pressure from his publisher/editor to create such stories, but other writers manage to not fall into this trap....why is it that the creator of the Realms (thank Ao that he did indeed create them) cannot seem to divulge from the same pattern?
My complaint is not aimed at any other aspect of the Realms, their stories or anything connected to them. Let alone Greenwood, whose work in creating such a wonderful universe for us all I feel rivals that of Professor Tolkien himself, except as previously mentioned.
My thanks to all of you who have replied and to those of you who will.....Mystra shine on us all.....(sigh)....even Elminster.
"Wine is only sweet to happy men." Keats |
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ArcticKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2002 : 02:50:39
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All i want to know is why people care so much?
in role-playing terms if u dont like him , leave him alone or come up with something to distract him while your group shines...
in novel terms again if u dont like him ignore him, he has entered a FEW series in the 133 books that exsist, in no such book did he show up , kill everything and say oops, didnt leave anything for the group of adventurers, o well novel ends here.
the elminster series is cool , shows his humble origins to the ArchMage he is today...if u dont like elminster, well its called the elminster series, so u know its about him, IGNORE IT!!!!!!!
I think from a person who only reads the novels, doesnt obsess over finding out the stats of any of the characters...i percieve that people start to know TO MUCH about the realms and it ruins thier perspective, as far as the campaign setting goes, i completely ingore its exsistance, until a novel comes out BANE is still a dead god, and Elminster has only influenced perhaps 15 novels out of 133, seems like a nice guy, can still hang with the ladies and kicks ass....
hes never shown up to fight something that wasnt important for him to help in. and tends to stay out of buisness that he thinks doesnt involve him..i.e. Shauguin threat,attack on mithril hall,and 110 other books full of adventures he has played no part in...
in the end , i see nothing wrong with the character.
steps off soap box....later
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2002 : 22:02:16
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Elminster is powerful because he made him self hard training pays off you should all learn that.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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Azeroth
Acolyte
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2002 : 18:02:32
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I'm sure you're all sick of this forum, but aside to listening to courtesy calls (which really aren't all that curteous when one thinks about it) telling me who would be the best educational chancellor, I've nothing to do, and am really quite bored. If this Forum is beginning to annoy you (which i'd understand), feel free to take the wise words from above and ignore me.
There's a quote form Ed Greenwood in an FAQ sayi8ng why he feels it necessary to have a charactere like Elminster in the wonderful world we refer to as "The Realms". An abbreviation of the statement as i understand it was that when he was beginning, zealous characters would slaughter whole kingdoms for power and experience, and the proceed to say "Ah, but it's alright by my alignement, so I can get away with it, hey?" The purpose of a characterLike Elminster in the game is so that when these bastards who come along and ruin the games for the rest of us hack a king to a bloody and most unpleasent (hope I spelled that right, I assume you'll forgive me if I did not)death, the King can the pop back up, turn into Elminster and say "well, now that you got THAT out of your system maybe now we can be porperly introduced. I've met thy SWORD already..."
As for what place he holds in the novels? Well, when I hear about a chahracter this powerful, I know that my curiosity is sparked to the point where I'll ask, "Well, how'd he get that way?" I fear that Greenwood despite the true genious he is, not to mention how benevolent he is for sharing the realms with us, capitalizes off chumps like me. However, like most things in life, I do not know this for a fact, and if one of you should be Greenwood in disguise, please, contradict me, supply the real answer, and put my fears to rest.
Oh what madness this mustt be,
Am I the only one who can clearly see
The true and utter beauty of the insanity
In which the world is ruled by the dominant race called humanity |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2002 : 20:49:23
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Well when I finaly got to the point of Azeroth's comment I found it was an excellent choice, "Go Elminster"
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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ArcticKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2002 : 21:09:12
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LMAO, yea i couldt tell who's side he was on either at first...
just messin with ya azeroth
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2002 : 21:53:19
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year no offens AZEROTH.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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The Great Drizzt
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2002 : 05:30:50
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Ok, first of all, you guys are sooo narrow minded. If youve even read any of Elminsters books, you will notice that he had his ass handed to him more times than I can count, he didnt just wake up and become the powerfull mage that he is. second, Drizzt never died as ArionElenim so "clearly" stated, it seems he needs to read the books again. and last I'd like to close with this, The reason there are strong characters like Elminster, the great Drizzt, Blackstaff, and all of the like is, someone has to be strong with all the magic that is at Faeruns disposal, and they have to keep all of our punk ass' in check!
The Great Drizzt
the ninja |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2002 : 11:52:16
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there don't have to e people with power Drizzet, in my opinion the Red Wizards of Thy, the masters of the planes, should tacke controle of faerun, the Harpers will not interfear with the balance, the Flaming fist won't move for fear of war with Arm, the clowerd wizzards don't care about anything but keepind magic under controll(there proaly the only people who would stand in the way of the Red) and the waderdavainds are the goddy goddys and wouldent want to hurt any body.
There would e no compition, the land could belong to the Red Wizards. They just have to take it.
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2002 : 22:54:04
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Actually Tiax Haluraan mages would wipe the floor with Thay, and dont fortet Mullhorond Mages as well, they have no little power
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox? |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 09:01:52
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A quick point, King-Tiax,
If you want the Red Wizards of Thay to take over the Realms, what do you intend to do about The Symbul? Don't you think she might have something to say about this? It's surprising seeing all this talk of "super-heroes" and she hasn't been mentioned.
As for Elminster and the others - I believe it's good to have personalities that the players can aspire to be like. Have none of you ever thought "I wish I could do that " or "I wish I could be like that" when you see someone or something on TV. A mage in my party wants to be like Elminster, a Priest of Tyr in the party wants to be the High Lord Justiciar at The Abbey of the Just Hammer.
This is a fantasy setting. Players need ambition - what better way than to have super powerful characters around whose exploits they hear of.
As ArcticKnight said "in role-playing terms if u dont like him , leave him alone or come up with something to distract him while your group shines..."
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2002 : 15:51:11
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I agree the haluraa would try ut with the right proding mullhorond may join there cause and then I doubt the symul could stop them
Daveron: My name is Daveron, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
BG1. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 07:45:43
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okay, folks...listen up...
My comments on the Sage of Shadowdale have been stated...as well as everyone else's...and I think it is time to let this rest...
However, if we still feel compelled to respond, please do so POLITELY...rather than simply claiming my own idiocy (to which I gladly concede), or worse, the idiocy of those who disagree with you SIMPLY because they disagree with you...we are not bad people because we don't like a character in Faerun...
To beat a dead horse...sigh....yes, I am sorry...I am of the opinion that Drizzt did INDEED die in The Silent Blade...for when one has a hand sink into his chest one tends to die....the quotes surrounding the word "died" in my previous post I thought aptly implied my acknowledgement that Drizzt, although dead, was resurrected.
I have indeed done my homework on this subject, and if anyone can remark a time in which Elminster was in any serious danger (and by serious I mean in which he could have been wiped off of the face of the planet, clones and reincarnation and all) I will happily concede my statement.
Beyond that though, lighten up, people... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 07:48:56
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| PS - Well said, Kahonen |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Mask
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 16:17:52
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| I just don't get you king-tiax. You talk about the Red Wizard taking over the world like they're the most powerfull beings on the face of Faerun, but you also say Elminster would wipe the floor with evil like it would cost him no effort at all. So if the Symbul alone can thwart the Red Wizards plans, what makes you think the Red Wizards can stand up to the combined power of both Elminster and the Symbul? Make up you're mind! |
Nothing is impossible! |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 17:08:38
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| Elminster is a harper, it is inebitibal the land will be red, he will not interfear, the time of the symbul is over the red has waited 2,000 years, they will come. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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Mask
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2002 : 19:05:08
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| But don't you think they will dispose of Elminster if (like it'll ever happen) they take over Faerun? I mean, Elminster is a great wizard, no doubt about it, but standing up against the Red Wizards? I don't know if that can be done. Not by himself anyway. To make things clear, I don't think the Red Wizards will ever take over Faerun. Let them keep their land and dispose of themselves, which they are so capable of. |
Nothing is impossible! |
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The Great Drizzt
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2002 : 08:37:31
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Ok, first of all, I read the Drizzt series almost "Religiously" and arionelen is once again wrong, it says quite clearly that Jarlaxle give him a potion as he is "Dying" not Dead end of story. Second of all I just have to say this topic is indeed getting old, and third of all, DARK ELVES FOREVER!!!!
The Great Drizzt |
"Don't poke Drizzt, 'tis highly unsociable!" Drizzt Do'Urden -BG1 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2002 : 00:26:37
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First of all...it's Elenim.
Secondly...to put quotes around a word implies that your acknowledge the usage of the word is not the commonality: in other words "died" does not mean "died"...there are other implications...
Let it "die".... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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king-tiax
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2002 : 20:32:22
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| If some one is dying then they evidently are not immortal, even if the do drink a potion. |
My name is Tiax, I would ask yours but I don't care to become aquainted with the dead.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2002 : 05:32:10
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Seeing as how this forum has basically become a sparring match for the three of us, I hesitate to reply at all...
However...
Salvatore is a genius. His work has had a HUGE impact on the sudden influx of interest in the fantasy genre (up something to the effect of 40% since The Crystal Shard debuted and god knows how much further since LOTR, but I digress)as well as an effect on the world of fiction as a whole . His characters are deep, passionate, three-dimensional and even seem to have a soul all their own. Why is this? In my opinion, it is because the characters (while given the fact they are fictional, of fictional races, and so on) are very realistic; they are possessed of the same weaknesses, strengths and all the other acoutrements that make real people real. Drizzt screws up sometimes...he is over-zealous and has that brilliant little "berzerker" side of him (what he refers to as "the Hunter") which often gets him into trouble. He develops crushes and has lustful desires and gets jealous (albeit in a very stoic, withdrawn manner). In other words, Salvatore has created a likeable, noble character who is both worth aspiring to and also very real in his faults.
Greenwood, however, has not.
This is my point: Drizzt an Co. are the product of a well-thought-out plan to create three-dimensional, powerful, flawed and very realistic characters....Elminster never changes, never fails and rarely (with perhaps the exception of his early adventures - Making of a Mage, etc.) succumbs to the base urges of lust or longing or selfishness or any number of the wonderful things that make us human.......Chosen of Mystra or no...Elminster is indeed human....I think we forget that.
If you choose to respond to this, more power to you, but as the poor fool who brought up this little side forum in the first place (Gods, what a monster I have created...), may I recommend your visiting other, more worthy forums...(by the by, kudos to Tiax for the whole "favorite _________" forums...interesting stuff).
My thanks.... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2002 : 20:07:40
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At last, someone, speaking sense. ArionElenim, stand up and take a bow. 
If I was to list my 10 all time favourite fantasy books 14 of them would be Salvatore's. He's one of very few authors I can say (IMHO) hasn't written a bad book. The first books of his I read was The Cleric Quintet and I've been hooked ever since. Pikel and Mikel Bouldershoulder were Salvatore's real heroes - I never understood why he didn't write more about them 
As for the rest of the thread - I prefer humans. Why? Because I do, it's that simple. No amount of arguing from anyone else is gonna change my mind and I doubt if I could change any of your minds. You get out of the game what you put into it, if you like playing a dwarf good luck to you, if you prefer to play an elf go for it.
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2002 : 20:40:54
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The two dwarves I mentioned, Pikel and Mikel Bouldershoulder, are in the Cleric Quintet books. These are well worth reading
Brunnor Battlehammer is in a lot of the Drizzt Do'Urden books (from Icewind Dale onwards). |
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ArcticKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2002 : 07:23:42
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First off, im ducking as i enter this thread in hopes to avoid all this garbage tossing.
im just posting to mention to kahonen that its Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder, not Pikel and Mikel.... |
"The man who does not read has little advantage over the man who cannot read."
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Elminster's place in the Realms...
