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Yoshi_Kong
Acolyte
5 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2008 : 23:22:09
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My partner and I were wondering this as we read through these books. Never once have we come across a gay character and its almost like WOTC is afraid to even attempt it. There are certainly some woman on woman flirtations, but no male on male sex romps or romance. I was thinking that since homosexuality is common place now that one of these books would go with it. Seems that WOTC is still xeno about the issue and playing it safe.
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Elminster would get pwned by Gromph. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 23:51:23
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Well, TSR had a comic code and this was one of the topics that was on the comic code. Of course, some of Ed's novels do have references to gay/lesbian/bi npcs but you have to read them carefully to really notice it due to TSR's comic code. Lhaeo comes to mind for instance, it was said he was Elminster's lisping lover.
WOTC has loosened that a bit but even so, you don't see many gay/lesbian/bi characters but there has been a few recent FR novels/short stories that have mentioned it but mostly in passing. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 01:20:53
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Yoshi's, Ed's discussed homosexual relationships in his past replies here at Candlekeep. Reading through them will help you to understand the history of the published Realms with regard to this topic.
And as a further example of the loosening of the Code as Kuje noted above, Faiths & Pantheons notes that Lliira had sexual relations with a female member of her clergy during the Time of Troubles.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 01:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoshi_Kong
My partner and I were wondering this as we read through these books. [...] Seems that WOTC is still xeno about the issue and playing it safe.
I don't know where you are Yoshi, but in the U.S. --unless I'm mistaken-- deeply rooted --though perhaps not conscious-- puritanism and the religious right are still significant factors to contend with for companies hoping to reach a mass audience. D&D is already viewed with suspicion by many Christians in North America, because of its magical, polytheistic setting. Adding a hot button issue like homosexuality to the mix would be brave indeed. I don't suspect WotC is interested in being brave so much as selling stuff. Here in Canada, I don't think it would be as much of an issue.
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 01:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yoshi's, Ed's discussed homosexual relationships in his past replies here at Candlekeep. Reading through them will help you to understand the history of the published Realms with regard to this topic.
Here's one rather lengthy answer from Ed regarding a query about a scene near the end of Swords of Dragonfire.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427&whichpage=4
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 04:09:06
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Yoshi-
Good question! When will the Realms have a gay male protagonist!?!?
I'm gonna go with Afet's response and mention that, at last I knew, WotC FR novels remain young adult (i.e. teen) lit. Homosexuality in young adult lit remains controversial; although, with each generation, the controversy abates somewhat. With baggage as mentioned by Afet, WotC may remain cautious.
Stepping back from WotC to young adult gamer lit, the ShadowRun novel line in the 1990s, also for young adults, better represented the GLBT community. I believe Lisa Smedman penned a SR novel with gay male supporting characters (one novel had the word Lucifer in its title), although several novels by Steven Kenson had a gay male protagonist named Talon. Talon still had little to no PDA, but subplots in Kenson novels sometimes pertained to gay issues.
I highly doubt Drizzt's gay, but, ironically, their refusal to allow him any realized sexuality (imagine the journal entries they'd have to face!!!) leaves it open.
Then there's the enigmatic Jarlaxle, who would be much more fun to hang with anyway. Zaranda Starred can keep Lhaeo. 
I hope this helps! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 04:25:44
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
several novels by Steven Kenson had a gay male protagonist named Talon. Talon still had little to no PDA, but subplots in Kenson novels sometimes pertained to gay issues.
That might be because Steven Kenson is gay. :) I know this because he mentions his partner in the dedication portion of his novels and his partner has mentioned Steven a few times in the dedication of his pagan novels. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2008 04:27:34 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 05:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Good question! When will the Realms have a gay male protagonist!?!?
I'm gonna go with Afet's response and mention that, at last I knew, WotC FR novels remain young adult (i.e. teen) lit. Homosexuality in young adult lit remains controversial; although, with each generation, the controversy abates somewhat. With baggage as mentioned by Afet, WotC may remain cautious.
True, the FR novels are essentially PG-14.
Representations of Lesbian and female bisexuality will come first because they have long been part of male erotica, and present no real threat to the patriarchy or to main stream straight male identity. I haven't read many FR novels, but this first stage can be seen obliquely in Ed´s Swords of Dragonfire. I think that gay MALE protagonists will represent the bigger hurdle. They will likely start out as stereotypically effeminate; because this reassures insecure straight males that they are still the true males, while gay males are not quite male, other, different, deficient, identifiable . For now, Gay male protagonists who are indistinguishable from straight male protagonists and then turn out to be gay destabilize straight male identity. It´s probably inevitable, that WotC will follow, rather than lead on this issue.
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 04 May 2008 05:21:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 06:37:22
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In the novel Spellfire, Elminster explains that outside his tower, people think of Lhaeo as a "simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate".
In one of the War of the Spider Queen books, there was indications of a lesbian encounter -- or at least, the possibility of one -- between two of the female characters (I didn't care for the books enough to remember the names, and I've only read them once). |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 13:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
True, the FR novels are essentially PG-14.
Representations of Lesbian and female bisexuality will come first because they have long been part of male erotica, and present no real threat to the patriarchy or to main stream straight male identity. I haven't read many FR novels, but this first stage can be seen obliquely in Ed´s Swords of Dragonfire. I think that gay MALE protagonists will represent the bigger hurdle. They will likely start out as stereotypically effeminate; because this reassures insecure straight males that they are still the true males, while gay males are not quite male, other, different, deficient, identifiable. For now, Gay male protagonists who are indistinguishable from straight male protagonists and then turn out to be gay destabilize straight male identity. It´s probably inevitable, that WotC will follow, rather than lead on this issue.
Afet
I second all of the above. Especially about lesbians and bisexual females. The idea that they're more acceptable because hey, they've been part of porn for male audience forever makes me slightly ill (because it's true). On that note, from skimming the Q&A threads, I've noticed EG's got a veritable army of bisexual female NPCs who will screw anything with a pulse, but few if any male ones. What gives? Did I miss all the reams and reams of lovingly detailed description of frolicking gay men? I hope so (since, after all, I only skimmed posts here and there: I'm sure I've missed all kinds of things, including copious buttsex). Anyone who can link me to past posts addressing such would be ever so appreciated.
You know it's dire than Star Wars novels (!) are less prudish, and more progressive, about these things. The first openly gay couple in the EU canon consists of two Mandalorian men, both of which are perfectly manly - one is a warrior/bounty hunter, the other a blacksmith. It's a small infant step, but it's by far larger than anything WotC has done. |
Edited by - Karzak on 04 May 2008 15:10:06 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 15:54:29
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Karzak, I can assure you that in Ed's novels, at least, the clear presence of gay males and bisexual males was "there" in the original drafts. NOT sex scenes, because it was understood from the first that beyond kissing, caressing, and nudity, that's unacceptable for the fiction lines.
So it's clear that down the years TSR and WotC have edited such mentions out (or asked the authors to do so). This isn't surprising considering the heat they were facing from conservative religious audiences who could literally keep the books off store shelves in certain markets. In recent years, with generation/societal shifts in tolerance, what's "acceptable" has widened . . . but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hasbro, which has its own image and unwritten code of what it wants to be associated with, narrows them again.
Ed's consistent view of such matters is that sexual details of characters should be imparted to the reader as they pertain to the story, but that in FR novels, the story has never been "about the sex."
At times, it's been a delicate tightrope to walk.
love,
THO |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 16:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed's consistent view of such matters is that sexual details of characters should be imparted to the reader as they pertain to the story, but that in FR novels, the story has never been "about the sex."
In my opinion that is the best view and is depicted clearly in FR novels .. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2008 : 21:26:05
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THO and Brandobaris, I agree that appropriate fade-to-black works for sex. These are young adult novels. Handholding, dreamy looks in one another's eyes, and a kiss would suffice.
Afet and Karzak, I don't see any homosexual male flirtation, romances, or relationships until the issue's more resolved in contemporary society and WotC believes it won't hurt their bottomline. As much as there's a double-standard, it's grounded in profit.
I reread the Finder's Stone trilogy, and it has Akabar bel Akash, the Turmishman with multiple wives (two in Azure Bonds and three in Song of the Saurials). Akabar and his wives add to the story, so it worked really well, but it jars against the absence of other alternate lifestyles, considering polygamy's universally illegal in the USA.
Wooly, I never read the War in Tethyr books. Does Lhaeo still lisp as King of Tethyr? 
I ask because I always wrote-off the portrayal of Lhaeo in Shadowdale as another red herring surrounding the public persona of Elminster. Not that speech impediments or effeminacy equate with male homosexuality, but, if Lhaeo dropped them outside the Dalelands and proceded to marry a hot woman, it'd suggest something other than an El-Lhaeo gay affair, something closer to Achilles being stashed in a harem.
Kuje, I believe Kenson's site also references a partner. Almost every SR product he produced had a gay subplot, too. Top-notch products! |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 01:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
These are young adult novels. Handholding, dreamy looks in one another's eyes, and a kiss would suffice.
There's distinctly more than hand-holding, dreamy looks and chaste kisses in existing Realms fiction. They just all happen to be strictly heterosexual.
WotC is a prudish old maid. If LucasBooks can pull it off (and would anyone like to argue that Star Wars' audience is less "young adult" than the Realms one?), I doubt gay men in the Realms will send readers into cataleptic fits.
quote:
Akabar and his wives add to the story, so it worked really well, but it jars against the absence of other alternate lifestyles, considering polygamy's universally illegal in the USA.
Yes, but polygamy won't make insecure heterosexual males uncomfortable. Please think of the heterosexual males, they're so persecuted. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:10:18
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The Watercourse Trilogy features characters who are definitely homosexual, as well was some I thought might have been homosexual (or bisexual). One of the main villains was actually a gay male.
Imoen in the Baldur's Gate novels was a lesbian. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 May 2008 02:10:52 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I don't know where you are Yoshi, but in the U.S. --unless I'm mistaken-- deeply rooted --though perhaps not conscious-- puritanism and the religious right are still significant factors to contend with for companies hoping to reach a mass audience. D&D is already viewed with suspicion by many Christians in North America, because of its magical, polytheistic setting. Adding a hot button issue like homosexuality to the mix would be brave indeed. I don't suspect WotC is interested in being brave so much as selling stuff. Here in Canada, I don't think it would be as much of an issue.
Afet
I'm a citizen of the U.S., and while I do think what you mentioned is a factor, I also believe it is overhyped and exaggerated. For example, there are pushes for legalized gay marriage in all 50 states (or so I've read).
As for this part:
quote:
D&D is already viewed with suspicion by many Christians in North America, because of its magical, polytheistic setting.
How many is "many"? Enough that sales of D&D products have foundered because of it? If so, I would like to see proof. In all the bookstores I've been in, the D&D products are easy to find and not kept in some "secret section" so people suspicious of such products cannot see them.
I don't mean to come off as confrontational, here, but I think generalizations like that are kind of unfair. The U.S. is not a nation of 17th century puritans--you didn't say that, but sadly I've seen people suggest that we are like that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 May 2008 02:29:07 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Good question! When will the Realms have a gay male protagonist!?!?
That is a good question. The guy I mentioned was a villain. That probably wouldn't sit well with some people (ie. "Why is the guy who is clearly gay also a villain?"), but of course, if there are good gay people there can be evil ones as well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
I highly doubt Drizzt's gay, but, ironically, their refusal to allow him any realized sexuality (imagine the journal entries they'd have to face!!!) leaves it open.
It's not really open anymore, as per The Orc King. Of course, there is always, always a chance that he could be bisexual, but there is no proof of that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Wooly, I never read the War in Tethyr books. Does Lhaeo still lisp as King of Tethyr?
I ask because I always wrote-off the portrayal of Lhaeo in Shadowdale as another red herring surrounding the public persona of Elminster. Not that speech impediments or effeminacy equate with male homosexuality, but, if Lhaeo dropped them outside the Dalelands and proceded to marry a hot woman, it'd suggest something other than an El-Lhaeo gay affair, something closer to Achilles being stashed in a harem.
I honestly couldn't tell you. I never finished War in Tethyr. I got 100 pages in, got bored, and never picked it back up. That was several years ago, so it's possible I'd enjoy it if I read it now.
I'm not sure that Lhaeo was even in it, either. I tend to suspect that he wasn't, and that the book centered around getting Zaranda Star (Starr, maybe?) into position to reunite Tethyr and allow for the monarchy to be restored. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
WotC is a prudish old maid. If LucasBooks can pull it off (and would anyone like to argue that Star Wars' audience is less "young adult" than the Realms one?), I doubt gay men in the Realms will send readers into cataleptic fits.
And again, WotC gets more scrutiny than LucasBooks. D&D is already something that many Christians view with grave suspicion, if not open fear and hostility. And these are the same people that often view homosexuality the same way. WotC's predecessor already had to deal with a period of harsh public scrutiny amidst claims of Satanism and occult practices that were supposedly inherent in the game. With that in mind, can WotC really be faulted for showing a reluctance to give its religious detractors more ammunition?
You can't call someone a prudish old maid when they are simply avoiding the negative publicity they already had to deal with once before. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 May 2008 02:31:18 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
I ask because I always wrote-off the portrayal of Lhaeo in Shadowdale as another red herring surrounding the public persona of Elminster.
That's how I read that, myself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 02:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Wooly, I never read the War in Tethyr books. Does Lhaeo still lisp as King of Tethyr?
I ask because I always wrote-off the portrayal of Lhaeo in Shadowdale as another red herring surrounding the public persona of Elminster. Not that speech impediments or effeminacy equate with male homosexuality, but, if Lhaeo dropped them outside the Dalelands and proceded to marry a hot woman, it'd suggest something other than an El-Lhaeo gay affair, something closer to Achilles being stashed in a harem.
I honestly couldn't tell you. I never finished War in Tethyr. I got 100 pages in, got bored, and never picked it back up. That was several years ago, so it's possible I'd enjoy it if I read it now.
I'm not sure that Lhaeo was even in it, either. I tend to suspect that he wasn't, and that the book centered around getting Zaranda Star (Starr, maybe?) into position to reunite Tethyr and allow for the monarchy to be restored.
Lhaeo didn't make an appearance, as far as I recall, but it's been years since I read it, in that novel. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And again, WotC gets more scrutiny than LucasBooks. D&D is already something that many Christians view with grave suspicion, if not open fear and hostility. And these are the same people that often view homosexuality the same way. WotC's predecessor already had to deal with a period of harsh public scrutiny amidst claims of Satanism and occult practices that were supposedly inherent in the game. With that in mind, can WotC really be faulted for showing a reluctance to give its religious detractors more ammunition?
You know something that fits pretty much all these criteria? Harry Potter. Accusations of Satanism and occult practices? Check! Young adult, nay, very young audience? Check! Eventual, albeit it's a cowardly cop-out and possibly a stunt for attention, announcement that a main character is gay? Oooh. Granted, the HP series is otherwise as conventional as buttered toast and it's a commercial phenomenon - one of those things that prove you need neither craft nor quality to sell well - but there you go.
I don't live in the US, but are the batty type of fundie Christians still taken seriously? I get the impression that retards like Jack Chick are laughed at these days, not followed with sheep-like reverence.
Mod edit: Watch the language, please. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 May 2008 03:39:19 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Wooly, I never read the War in Tethyr books. Does Lhaeo still lisp as King of Tethyr?
I ask because I always wrote-off the portrayal of Lhaeo in Shadowdale as another red herring surrounding the public persona of Elminster. Not that speech impediments or effeminacy equate with male homosexuality, but, if Lhaeo dropped them outside the Dalelands and proceded to marry a hot woman, it'd suggest something other than an El-Lhaeo gay affair, something closer to Achilles being stashed in a harem.
I honestly couldn't tell you. I never finished War in Tethyr. I got 100 pages in, got bored, and never picked it back up. That was several years ago, so it's possible I'd enjoy it if I read it now.
I'm not sure that Lhaeo was even in it, either. I tend to suspect that he wasn't, and that the book centered around getting Zaranda Star (Starr, maybe?) into position to reunite Tethyr and allow for the monarchy to be restored.
Lhaeo didn't make an appearance, as far as I recall, but it's been years since I read it, in that novel.
He's mentioned a couple of times though, as I recall. But, again, this is coming from the long-ago memory of reading the book.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The Watercourse Trilogy features characters who are definitely homosexual, as well was some I thought might have been homosexual (or bisexual). One of the main villains was actually a gay male.
Imoen in the Baldur's Gate novels was a lesbian.
Swear to the Seldarine, Rino, I almost added a comment about how at least the Reams didn't portray gay characters as villains! I got tired of the Baron Harkonnen as the token male homosexual in Dune. 
Was our Watercourse villain also a pedophilic rapist? Or was he more germane? Did he get to have PDA?  |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Adding a hot button issue like homosexuality to the mix would be brave indeed. I don't suspect WotC is interested in being brave so much as selling stuff. Here in Canada, I don't think it would be as much of an issue.
Afet
I'm a citizen of the U.S., and while I do think what you mentioned is a factor, I also believe it is overhyped and exaggerated. For example, there are pushes for legalized gay marriage in all 50 states (or so I've read).
I can only speak for myself, but Indiana's General Assembly has repeatedly attempted to pass a DOMA-type amendment to our state constitution preventing any type of civil unions or marriages between homosexual couples. Only last year's heroic speaker of the house refusing to allow a general vote and this year's committee chairman tabling it in committee prevent the vote.
It has the numbers to pass into law, and, baring societal change, will do so eventually. Indiana's one of seven or eight states in a similar situation.
And gaybashing's not a hate crime here, either--just a mundane assault.
But, like Rino said, it's not universal. I live in a fly-over state. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And again, WotC gets more scrutiny than LucasBooks. D&D is already something that many Christians view with grave suspicion, if not open fear and hostility. And these are the same people that often view homosexuality the same way. WotC's predecessor already had to deal with a period of harsh public scrutiny amidst claims of Satanism and occult practices that were supposedly inherent in the game. With that in mind, can WotC really be faulted for showing a reluctance to give its religious detractors more ammunition?
You know something that fits pretty much all these criteria? Harry Potter. Accusations of Satanism and occult practices? Check! Young adult, nay, very young audience? Check! Eventual, albeit it's a cowardly cop-out and possibly a stunt for attention, announcement that a main character is gay? Oooh. Granted, the HP series is otherwise as conventional as buttered toast and it's a commercial phenomenon - one of those things that prove you need neither craft nor quality to sell well - but there you go.
I don't live in the US, but are the batty type of fundie Christians still taken seriously? I get the impression that retards like Jack Chick are laughed at these days, not followed with sheep-like reverence.
Mod edit: Watch the language, please.
I'm not going to comment on the HP stuff, save to say that it certainly got its share of negative attention. Including from my stepsister.
The problem in the US with sexuality dates back to our Puritan founders. The "sex is bad" concept is still deeply ingrained in our society, despite the fact that our natures make us quite interested in sex. The end result is the hang-ups about sex that mystify the rest of the world. Many of our TV shows are filled with violence and that's somehow okay, but a half-second shot of the breast of a has-been female singer during a sporting event drew national outrage.
As others have pointed out, many US states have considered allowing gay marriage. Just as many, however, are doing their best to outlaw it.
So, in a roundabout way of answering your question, yes. Some of the more extreme religious folk, like Jack Chick, are laughed out. But there's still a strong religious background in the US, enough so that it can't be ruled out when making decisions like this. The ongoing debates with gay marriage prove that.
The US has gotten a lot better about accepting homosexuality than it was even 20 years ago. But there is still a long way to go. These attitudes are changing, but slowly. I fear it will be at least a generation before WotC (or their eventual successor) is brave enough to push having openly gay major characters in their fiction. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
I don't live in the US, but are the batty type of fundie Christians still taken seriously? I get the impression that retards like Jack Chick are laughed at these days, not followed with sheep-like reverence.
I don't speak for everyone who lives in the US, but in my experience, people like Jack Chick (although, I believe he's deceased) don't represent the majority of the population. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 03:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And again, WotC gets more scrutiny than LucasBooks. D&D is already something that many Christians view with grave suspicion, if not open fear and hostility. And these are the same people that often view homosexuality the same way. WotC's predecessor already had to deal with a period of harsh public scrutiny amidst claims of Satanism and occult practices that were supposedly inherent in the game. With that in mind, can WotC really be faulted for showing a reluctance to give its religious detractors more ammunition?
I don't live in the US, but are the batty type of fundie Christians still taken seriously? I get the impression that retards like Jack Chick are laughed at these days, not followed with sheep-like reverence.
Mod edit: Watch the language, please.
Karzak, in large enough numbers any group has to be taken seriously, especially in a participatory democracy where most eligible voters haven't participated. Whomever cares enough to shut off their TV and vote--or protest--has a disproportionate amount of power.
That said, your original posting made me laugh. Thanks! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 04:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Was our Watercourse villain also a pedophilic rapist?
No, he wasn't (as far as I could tell from the text, that is). Of course, he was still an evil Red Wizard of Thay.
On one hand, you could say that the novels of Phil Athans are progressive in a sense because they feature homosexuality as a matter of course. On the other hand, the very first scene in The Watercourse trilogy is one I can't quite figure out. The villain's mother dresses him up as a girl (complete with lipstick!) for no apparent reason, when he is a very young child. At that time, he is presented to the Zulkir, who asks "is this your son?" His mother says, "yes, Zulkir". I wondered what the heck that was supposed to mean. It seems to imply that the villain "turned gay" because he was dressed up like a girl or something.
quote:
Or was he more germane? Did he get to have PDA?
He force-kissed his protege, Willem, on the mouth right before he turns Willem into an undead creature. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 May 2008 04:04:46 |
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Has any novel ever mentioned homosexuality?
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