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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 01:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Actually, both of these statements/arguments make sense, and I was thinking about them when I typed my response. It is just that for me, in most cases, actions speak louder than words, and the actions that I have seen speak quite loudly. Thanks for your responses!
You're welcome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 01:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Rilonalyrna: Makes sense. You can definitely respect someone's personal integrity and dislike their work/product.
That's exactly what it comes down to. I don't have a hate-on for the designers, I simply dislike their ideas for the Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 01:55:23
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Sage: Thanks for the invite. I ducked out of a beating with the creativity stick somewhere in life. Ideas come less frequently than I'd like, but I'll check out the compendiums and see if I have any unique ideas meriting development! 
Neat! If you have any questions, feel free to contact me via PM.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 01:55:36
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My bad! You're welcome, Hawkins.  |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 03:20:38
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I guess what it really all comes down to is the Realms (and D&D in general) is in the wrong hands. Even if it were in the right hands, their overlords may still be the wrong ones overlooking everything.
The only thing we can hope for from this point forward is that D&D and the Realms both respectively end up in completely new ownership (or old, as in the Realms going back to Ed) in the hands of those who want to make a game for the spirit of the game and not for sheer profit hoarding.
That may never happen, or it might sometime in the far future. Only thing we have is hope from here on out. For now, I guess let's remember the Realms and D&D for what it was... |
Edited by - Razz on 30 Apr 2008 03:21:54 |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 08:39:23
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Sean K. Reynolds went into great detail as to how poorly the "fluff" books sold, aside from the Realms Guide and Players Guide, in fact a rant of his on that topic was recorded here in the Bard's Rumors six years ago!
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/rumors/rumor7.htm
Clearly, WotC has been trying to figure out for years how to cut down on the fluff, which only sell to a few die hard fans. This is why our beloved fluff books suddenly came with "ready to play" adventures and locations, cutting down on the lore.
It is pretty simple marketing math for them. A DM or Player may never need to buy the Shining South, if they never intend to adventure there, but everyone needs the core guides to play.
The problem with this is that it is not even good business sense, that might have been a good business model 20 years ago but not today!
Some folks at Wizards need to read the Long Tail. It is clear the guys at Paizo get the new economy much better. A players guide for Pathfinder is free as a PDF or $1.99 printed, with great artwork to boot. Guess what, if thousands of people download the free PDF, it increases the likelihood of them paying real money for modules down the road. Need a PDF version of your core books so you can take them on the road? Its included. No need to pay Paizo a monthly subscription fee to access the PDFs.
It seems to me that not only are a lot of changes being driven by business decisions, they are driven by BAD business decisions... and I am not even really a critic of 4ed, being okay with most of the changes.
WotC could be making good business decisions and pleasing their fans, they do not have to be mutually exclusive things, and that is where the real frustration sets in. |
Edited by - Ranak on 30 Apr 2008 08:42:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 12:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Sean K. Reynolds went into great detail as to how poorly the "fluff" books sold, aside from the Realms Guide and Players Guide, in fact a rant of his on that topic was recorded here in the Bard's Rumors six years ago!
It wasn't that the lore books weren't selling, it's that they weren't selling the same as the crunch books. That's not the same thing. The bean counter philosophy was that if one book sells a large number of copies, all books should. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 13:26:16
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| Fluff books might be much more important than poor sales. Without products that encourage imagination and role-playing, the D&D product line is just a clunky wargame. I wish Hasbro/WOTC would get a more holistic view of rpg business. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 15:08:45
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| The "fluff books" must not have sold that poorly, otherwise why would they have kept putting them out? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 16:36:42
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One of the problems I had with the "core books sell 50% more than setting fluffy books" is that the logic is flawed. The assumption is that, since the core rulebooks sell 50% than, say, a regional sourcebook, then if the regional sourcebook had not been printed, and a core "splatbook" had been published in its place, then the 50% that bought the sourcebook and an additional 50% would have bought the splatbook.
This is a false notion predicated upon the notion that all of the people that bought the sourcebook would also buy the splatbook, which is ignoring the idea that the sourcebook brough in sales from people that would never have bought any of the splatbooks at all.
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 20:06:36
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This is exactly what I said, it is a flawed business assumption.
I was not defending their view of fluff books.
And as to the question of why they kept putting fluff books out, you can read in the post I mention that they tried to change the format of the fluff books over time to increase their sales, each containing less and less fluff, right down to the Moonsea book that had very little information on the Moonsea.
The conclusion you might be able to reach from that is the tweaks didn't work, so out goes the fluff!
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
One of the problems I had with the "core books sell 50% more than setting fluffy books" is that the logic is flawed. The assumption is that, since the core rulebooks sell 50% than, say, a regional sourcebook, then if the regional sourcebook had not been printed, and a core "splatbook" had been published in its place, then the 50% that bought the sourcebook and an additional 50% would have bought the splatbook.
This is a false notion predicated upon the notion that all of the people that bought the sourcebook would also buy the splatbook, which is ignoring the idea that the sourcebook brough in sales from people that would never have bought any of the splatbooks at all.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 20:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I guess what it really all comes down to is the Realms (and D&D in general) is in the wrong hands.
It certainly seems likely that a smaller publisher, without Hasbro's demand for high profit margins, could do a better job of publishing the Realms as a primary goal. Conversely Wizards has better distribution and production, but that's not the factor it would be if they'd ever done a good job with Realms-specific art.quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Sean K. Reynolds went into great detail as to how poorly the "fluff" books sold, aside from the Realms Guide and Players Guide, in fact a rant of his on that topic was recorded here in the Bard's Rumors six years ago!
No, his point was that the 'bean counters' had dogmatically got it into their heads that that was why Magic of Faerûn outsold Lords of Darkness -- not that they were right!quote:
Clearly, WotC has been trying to figure out for years how to cut down on the fluff, which only sell to a few die hard fans.
That would be a gross exaggeration. The core rulebooks and the FRCS sold extremely well, while both rules supplements and setting sourcebooks tailed off in sales. The 4E publishing programme for D&D and the Realms evidently tries to tackle that.quote:
This is why our beloved fluff books suddenly came with "ready to play" adventures and locations, cutting down on the lore.
Apart from the experimental hardback adventure trilogy, I see no sharp shift in those proportions between the 1990s and 2000s. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 12:01:37
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Eff WOtC, eff the guys who destroyed the realms, eff everyone who think the realms need this big face lift....eff em all!!!!!!!!!1
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 12:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Some folks at Wizards need to read the Long Tail. It is clear the guys at Paizo get the new economy much better.
The good news here is that DDI seem perfect to "long tail" profits on marginal products like the Shining South. Distribution is cheap and the material is in print forever. This could be the reason old setting snow seem to be coming back.
I still think DDI is the best thing that could happen to FR as a gaming setting. (It does not explain the Spellplague however, but corporations are rarely rational). |
Edited by - Snotlord on 01 May 2008 18:20:09 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 16:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I still think DDI is the best thing that could happen to FR as a gaming setting. (It does not explain the Spellplague however, but corporations is rarely rational).
True, I can't say that the format in itself really bothers me (although is there any true replacement for an actual book in one's hands?). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 19:29:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I still think DDI is the best thing that could happen to FR as a gaming setting. (It does not explain the Spellplague however, but corporations is rarely rational).
True, I can't say that the format in itself really bothers me (although is there any true replacement for an actual book in one's hands?).
Or magazine, anyways, as I said before, if I thought that I was going to play in the 4e Realms (which I am not, and even though I would have stuck with the 3.5 rules set for now) and I was convinced that the DDi would have frequent and quality Realms articles, then I would consider subscribing to it. As it stands, I will have to live out 4e Realms lore vicariously through others who are willing to at least give us synopses here (maybe that will lessen the illness and depression I feel whenever I think about it now  ). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 22:15:25
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| Hawkins, is 4e Realms, if it still can be called that, info that important... you, and I and anyone else for that matter, might get an ulcer from the BS |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 23:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hawkins, is 4e Realms, if it still can be called that, info that important... you, and I and anyone else for that matter, might get an ulcer from the BS
It is more of an addiction that I need to know as much "official" info as possible about the Realms. I am sure, like most addictions, it will fade after I abstain from it long enough...or fill it with a new, but similar, addiction: collecting as much 1e and 2e Realms material as I can (I began in the novels, so almost all of the Realms material I have is in either novel or 3e form). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 00:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hawkins, is 4e Realms, if it still can be called that, info that important... you, and I and anyone else for that matter, might get an ulcer from the BS
There's some truth to what you're saying. In a way, I don't like it when 4E Realms articles get posted on the WotC site, simply because I can't read them without feeling sad or irritated.
Who needs added stress in their life? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 15:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hawkins, is 4e Realms, if it still can be called that, info that important... you, and I and anyone else for that matter, might get an ulcer from the BS
It is more of an addiction that I need to know as much "official" info as possible about the Realms. I am sure, like most addictions, it will fade after I abstain from it long enough...or fill it with a new, but similar, addiction: collecting as much 1e and 2e Realms material as I can (I began in the novels, so almost all of the Realms material I have is in either novel or 3e form).
It does fade with time, trust me. And the fun of it then is reconstructing the Realms according to ones own madness.
With understanding players of course. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 16:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hawkins, is 4e Realms, if it still can be called that, info that important... you, and I and anyone else for that matter, might get an ulcer from the BS
It is more of an addiction that I need to know as much "official" info as possible about the Realms. I am sure, like most addictions, it will fade after I abstain from it long enough...or fill it with a new, but similar, addiction: collecting as much 1e and 2e Realms material as I can (I began in the novels, so almost all of the Realms material I have is in either novel or 3e form).
It does fade with time, trust me. And the fun of it then is reconstructing the Realms according to ones own madness.
With understanding players of course.
Thanks Jorkens, made me chuckle and smile. It is a good feeling. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 02:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hawkins, is 4e Realms, if it still can be called that, info that important... you, and I and anyone else for that matter, might get an ulcer from the BS
It is more of an addiction that I need to know as much "official" info as possible about the Realms. I am sure, like most addictions, it will fade after I abstain from it long enough...or fill it with a new, but similar, addiction: collecting as much 1e and 2e Realms material as I can (I began in the novels, so almost all of the Realms material I have is in either novel or 3e form).
It does fade with time, trust me. And the fun of it then is reconstructing the Realms according to ones own madness.
With understanding players of course.
Time is a huge factor in a reconstruction effort for me. 10 years ago I had a lot more time to craft a custom Realms. Not so much anymore. So, I plan to build on what lore I retained, and use the new stuff as it comes out. Since their goal is to make it quicker to start out of the box, I'll put it to the test. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2008 : 22:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
In this case we must know what Ed is going to do with the Realms.. Is he willing to continue them under MWP or another company??Can he cancel the changes of Spellplague and 4th edition??
Here's what I think he should do. Jump ship, take the Realms with him (pre-4E) and bring it over to Pathfinder RPG with Paizo. We'll get both the edition and the setting we want and done by the RIGHT people.
You're not entire off. Ed is apparently doing some work for Paizo on the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book coming out. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 00:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
You're not entire off. Ed is apparently doing some work for Paizo on the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book coming out. :)
Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally? details please! details! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 18:16:21
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| So could he slip in a Realms story somewhere like Salvatore did with a Drizzt story in the Highwayman? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 13 May 2008 18:17:13 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 18:28:23
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| My guess would be, not without WotC's permission. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 19:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
You're not entire off. Ed is apparently doing some work for Paizo on the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book coming out. :)
Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally? details please! details!
Oh it gets better, RA Salvatore is contributing to the same book as well. And Elaine is going to be doing a 6 part serial story for the monthly Pathfinder around September.
By all accounts, Ed is contributing the same fluffy goodness he does for the Realms. If you're a Keith Baker fan, he's contributing to the Pathfinder Campaign Setting hardcover too.
http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderChronicles/v5748btpy80ic
(cover art pending)
There are many early 3/3.5 names being roped into Pathfinder. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 00:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
By all accounts, Ed is contributing the same fluffy goodness he does for the Realms.
I can't wait to see what he does for that setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 May 2008 01:14:18 |
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Dewaint
Learned Scribe
Germany
148 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 23:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Here's what I think he should do.
Jump ship, take the Realms with him (pre-4E) and bring it over to Pathfinder RPG with Paizo.
We'll get both the edition and the setting we want and done by the RIGHT people.
Though I agree with the second sentiment (right people right setting), which edition are you talking about? I think you will find some of us dislike 3.xE as much as others do 4E......... (even though they haven't seen the complete 4E rules yet )
Just my thoughts
Damian
Well, maybe it is a topic to seriously think about. Right People? I guess here at Candlekeep are a lot of them. Right Setting? From my point of view the lovely Forgotten Relams pre-4th Ed.
Earlier this year I stumbled over an alternative timeline with a different turn of events (i.e. outcome of the Spellplague, events within the faeruninan pantheon), sorry but don't remind in which post . Hopefully I downloaded it ... have to check.
Maybe this timeline can be the point to start with. And as long Candlekeep do this without any profits in mind, WoTC should keep tolerating it.
Well, at least so long they do not get the impression of loosing a lot of customer of their target group .
This new "line" could be integrated in the Candlekeep Compendium and receive on a regular basis some kind of further development. I assume this should be done without a specific edition in mind. And if for the stats an edition is to be choosen, then maybe 3E. With all the convertion books and suggestions swirling around in the web it would be easy to get it in your favored one.
The approach taken some time ago at the Vintyri Project (Northern Journey Campaign) was quite nice. The guys over ther had a lot of good ideas about the "how", for the mechanics and storyline as well.
So roll up one's sleeves and let us begin with
Eh? Oh, sorry ... the alarm is ringing have to wake up ...
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Say goodbye to the Realms until 5th Edition...
