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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 06:53:05
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In the April 2008 interview, Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell discuss renewing the Realms. I'll quote that part in full:quote:
[BC]...the new Realms has so much opportunity for new corners of the Realms to be explored. The 3rd edition and earlier editions of the Realms spent so much time laying down so many tapestries of story upon story upon story that we specifically -- Rich, Phil and I -- sat down and said "What are we gonna do to make this realm come alive again and be a place where you can get excited about and wonder what's gonna be around that next corner?"
[RB] We wanted to restore some of that sense of exploration that people had about the Forgotten Realms early in the line history that simply through the line maturing, more game products being written, more novels being written, the devoted fans of the Realms had really figured out most everything that was there, and we were going back and really filling in corners and painting in details that were becoming more and more self-referential. It was at a point where to be a Forgotten Realms fan you had to really be very invested in the Realms. We wanted to try and make it a little bit easier for people to enjoy the Realms on a more casual basis. So what 4th edition Realms gives us an opportunity to do is to hopefully put back a little bit of that sense of wide-eyed wonder, that sense of "Wow, this is new, I haven't seen this before," or "Boy, that's really something else." Just to get past that overly familiar sense of entitlement and mastery and get it back to a point where people can be surprised by what we do.
This is a clear statement about this central part of their thinking. I think it's plausible and deserves fair consideration.
The strategy is legitimate. You can create uncertainty, mystery and novelty by crafting new lands and jumping forward in time. Some people will be more excited by these new things because they're used to the existing Realms, or think they are, or don't like the Realms or are more in tune with the new designers' style. Understandably, Bruce and Rich sound most engaged by the new things they've made, with recurring phrasing of 'what we do' and the new stories they want to tell. "You asked me where I wanna play? Actually a lot of that new stuff looks really cool. I wanna play there."
There are inevitably diminishing commercial returns with progressive detailing of a setting, as with rules supplements for a game. I wonder why Wizards thinks the Realms has had such surprising longevity to date.
People like the Realms for different reasons. It's a mere convenience for some, some follow it as a passive story, some appreciate its special virtues. We don't know what proportion of current Realms fans they're hoping to retain, or quite how much of its spirit and dynamics they're trying or will manage to keep, to do so; or what synergy the new and old ideas will have.
When they say the Realms needs enlivening, who are they speaking for?
Doesn't Rich's 'to be a Forgotten Realms fan you had to really be very invested in the Realms' falsely generalize the very specific case of people being put off by detail they in no real way have to use? I'm not sure what he means by the 'entitlement' thing.
I don't see how 'we were going back and really filling in corners and painting in details that were becoming more and more self-referential' holds up when of the central campaign area, none of the seven Heartlands regions and two parts of the Sword Coast North got 3E sourcebooks, and some never had any. I think the untapped depth Ed leaks on this forum belies the notion that we've 'figured out most everything that was there', or that we're near diminishing creative returns. But I'm a long-time fan.
Strikingly, they repeat phrases Ed Greenwood has long used, but with almost opposite meaning. While for Ed, the tapestry and detail of the Realms create the sense of a living world with something new round each corner (see the second post here), Bruce and Rich say they diminish that feel. That's a really basic disagreement.
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Edited by - Faraer on 15 Apr 2008 17:06:18
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 17:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
When they say the Realms needs enlivening, who are they speaking for?
Certainly not me. As I've said more than once before, I already thought the Realms an exciting place to tell a story. The details don't take away from that--in fact, usually they onlt add to it.
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Doesn't Rich's 'to be a Forgotten Realms fan you had to really be very invested in the Realms' falsely generalize the very specific case of people being put off by detail they in no real way have to use?
In my opinion, yes.
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I'm not sure what he means by the 'entitlement' thing.
Yes, I heard about that word being used, and I am troubled by the implications.
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I don't see how 'we were going back and really filling in corners and painting in details that were becoming more and more self-referential' holds up when of the central campaign area, none of the seven Heartlands regions and two parts of the Sword Coast North got 3E sourcebooks, and some never had any. I think the untapped depth Ed leaks on this forum belies the notion that we've 'figured out most everything that was there', or that we're near diminishing creative returns.
I keep thinking the same thing! And besides, it seems to me like a lot of the places that are being "ruined" are the places that never got that much detail in the first place. Aren't those places with only slight detail exactly what Realms fans supposedly want, according to the FR PR team? If that's the case, why get rid of them, and keep places like Waterdeep and Cormyr (places with more than average detail) largely the same? Something doesn't "fit" right, here.
quote:
Strikingly, they repeat phrases Ed Greenwood has long used, but with almost opposite meaning.
Indeed, when I read the title, I thought you were referring to something Ed might have said, or intended. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 17:20:21
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It is indeed a really basic disagreement, and I totally disagree with Bruce and Rich on this.
The amount of work I've put into my Turmish Campaign, in order to fill in the void where the official material left off is pretty frickin staggering and the idea that the Realms has too much detail for a DM to be free to run the type of campaign they wish just doesn't jive with my experience of the Realms. In EVERY game I've run in the Realms I've had to fill in detail that was left out of the source books, it's rare that these notes are under 100+ pages (including maps and such) and it's been the case several times that I've had to push back the dates of the games I want to run because I need more time to make up that which isn't provided.
And, it could totally be that I'm in the minority, I'm absolutely willing to believe that but it still feels like a massive slap in the face.
I've never wanted less detail, I've always wanted more.
And I don't mean I want more stats blocks, I want more cultural information, more economic information, more political information. The basics on how these things work and how they work together, so if I have a group that wrecks a monopolizing merchant group I don't have to make up everything about the fall out of that wrecking. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 17:36:17
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| Oh, and I forgot to mention--regarding Realms fans who have "already figured everything out?" That would not be me, either, as I've been a serious fan of this setting for about 8 years, now, and I'm constantly surprised at how much I don't know. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 18:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Oh, and I forgot to mention--regarding Realms fans who have "already figured everything out?" That would not be me, either, as I've been a serious fan of this setting for about 8 years, now, and I'm constantly surprised at how much I don't know.
Hahaha, no doubt!
I can't imagine anyone has everything "figured out". Even Ed, notes and all, can't have everything "figured out" since it's a shared setting. Perhaps he has everything "figured out" in his personal Realms but I can't imagine how many notebooks that takes. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 19:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Oh, and I forgot to mention--regarding Realms fans who have "already figured everything out?" That would not be me, either, as I've been a serious fan of this setting for about 8 years, now, and I'm constantly surprised at how much I don't know.
Ditto that, and I've been a fan for more than twice as long as you.
I've built a near-complete collection of Realms material *twice*, too!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 20:08:16
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Have to agree with Rino and Wooly here - people often think I know a lot about the Realms, when the truth is, I know probably less then 10%.
Not a day goes by that I don't learn some interesting new fact or uncover some forgotten nugget of lore long-buried.
That is the wonder of the place. How they could have missed that is beyond me. 
Not to be a negative-nelly or anything, but it really rubbed me the wrong way when they talked about "needing room to tell their stories".
So was that it? Someone wanted to write something different about a region another author already tackled? Did someone decide they no longer liked sharing a 'shared world', so they just hit the 'Delete' button? 
I'm just not seeing what would motivate an intelligent group of guys to destroy something unique and of great financial value, just to create something entirely different that may very well NOT be as valuable as it predessesor. Thats like smashing the Hope Diamond, so you can have lots of little ones. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Apr 2008 02:59:50 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 20:23:24
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| What motivates them... shareholder value, short term rise in cash-flow and then, after the dumbass managers who ran that show are long gone, the shattering revelation that short term planning is really not such a good idea for the long-term survival of a company. Story of corporate life... sad but true |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 22:00:29
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It made all kinds of sense.
But meaningful, sensible actions don't make sense to people who do not care. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 02:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Oh, and I forgot to mention--regarding Realms fans who have "already figured everything out?" That would not be me, either, as I've been a serious fan of this setting for about 8 years, now, and I'm constantly surprised at how much I don't know.
I have been exploring the realms since 1987 and have lots to learn yet |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 03:23:40
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I've been on board since the Old Grey Box Set, although I think I fell helplessly in love when I read Waterdeep and the North. I have intentionally tried to run campaigns in various parts of the Realms, including Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, Cormyr, Baldur's Gate, Damara, Calimshan, The Moonshaes, Mistledale, Skullport, and Featherdale (and probably a few campaigns I've forgotten about over 20 years, and of course, not throwing in my Shou Lung or Kozakura campaigns).
Every time I have researched the region I'm about to use, and every time I have learned things that I never knew before, and I've come up with questions and adventure hooks and tons of ideas. I never thought, "I'm so tired of how Waterdeep is," or even, "I've got too many details about this place."
If there is one complaint I ever had about "too much" information, its that, due to WOTC's drive to make as generic as possible sourcebooks that they could market to non FR fans, there was tons of really great Realmslore hidden across sourcebooks that people wouldn't think to look in, and in Dragon magazine. All of this consolidated in more logical sources would have been wonderful.
Already figured everything out, eh? |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 16 Apr 2008 03:25:03 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 04:53:33
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Well, guys and gals... I don't want to be the one saying "I told you so," and other smartass remarks, but hey... I told you so!
Seriously. I see many of you here coming to the sad realization that the good old Realms are gone. I got that feeling many months ago. I somehow knew that the wait and see wouldn't pay off in my case anyways... Apparently many of you here now feel the same.
The hints they gave about the new land Ed is creating are interesting though. A continent that is to the Time of Dragons what Evermeet is to the eras dominated by elves... I could perhaps be convinced to add "that" continent to my Realms and act as if Maztica never existed (I never used Maztica... ever) |
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so many tapestries of story upon story upon story
