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Kjetta
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 02:07:06
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Yo!
Why isn't Gond in oppositon towards Oghma?
I don't know much about this setting , but I get the notion that the Forgotten Realms setting include the classic fantasy conflic of ancient premodern times vs. modernity, represented by "ancient" Elven, Imaskari and Netherese Empires on one side and "modern" humans etc. on the other side.
But at the same time, this conflict is permamently solved by Oghma's complete control over innovation and Gond's loyal stance towards this.
This sounds to me like a bit boring solution to an interesting theme, or am I reading it wrongly - is the beauty of Toril indeed threatended by a new and improved, modern world? (In the same sense that the Shire suffers from an "industrial revolution" in the Lord of the Rings).
Thanks
-Kjetil
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Edited by - Kjetta on 13 Apr 2008 02:14:04
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 02:43:50
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Gond is independent from, but actually serves Oghma. Mystra opposes Gond, due to him placing technology above the Art.
Toril is not threatened by technology, it is threatened by the spellplague that starts in 1385. |
Edited by - scererar on 13 Apr 2008 02:46:28 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 03:11:32
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I know little or nothing about the relationship between the gods and innovation in the Realms, so I won't comment on that.
But I am interested in what you mean by "pre-modern and "modern". Do you use these words to mean historical periods or philosophical shifts roughly equivalent to these periods in European history?
On the Tolkien connection, I think most would agree that the creators of D&D were deeply indebted, directly or indirectly, to the patterns for races and race relations and representations of good and evil and science established in Middle Earth.
I think Tolkien's disenchantment with modernity was understandable given his experience in the first world war, in which he and all of Europe witnessed the prevailing positivist Enlightenment mythology of human betterment through technology and scientific inquiry smashed like a babies head on a rock and buried in mud and barbed wire.
But the creators of the D&D universe did not share Tolkien's traumatic experiences. They were born into the Cold War, in which wars were fought on other continents. They grew up in the relative comfort provided by technological advances and the relative peace provided by WW II; although there was the ever present threat of a Nuclear Holocaust.
I wonder how this different late 20th Century experience is reflected in the Realms.
Cheers,
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 13 Apr 2008 03:13:34 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 05:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
But the creators of the D&D universe did not share Tolkien's traumatic experiences. They were born into the Cold War, in which wars were fought on other continents. They grew up in the relative comfort provided by technological advances and the relative peace provided by WW II; although there was the ever present threat of a Nuclear Holocaust.
I wonder how this different late 20th Century experience is reflected in the Realms.
Cheers,
Afet
I'll tell you how: whereas Tolkien saw the orcish siege engines as the "fantasy breakers", born out of observations on real-world tanks, machine guns, and other new weapons used in WWI and WWII (shall I even add airplanes = wyvern-mounted Naazguls?), now we see the Cold War fantasy authors trying to conclude every novel by a catastrophic event such as the Spellplague, a violent rift in the shadow plane absorbing Tilverton, the massive explosion of Shade's Mythallar at the hands of a "crack team" of Chosen commandos, etc. etc. etc. It's the modern man's constant fear that this currently achieved and almost decadent level of comfort will be taken away from him in one split-second of extreme, unimaginable, unmanageable and uncontrollable violence (the so-called Cold War nuke always looming around the corner...) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 16:58:09
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The Realms is entering a new Renaissance-like mercantile human era, but 'modernity' (a problematic term!) in the sense of industrialization and Tolkien's Fourth Age is only a faint and distant prospect. Much as no designer pressed the button on the spread of firearms suggested in Forgotten Realms Adventures, they don't want to see Faerűn become texturally and culturally like modern Earth (in ways it isn't already!) in the span of decades or centuries that's liable to pass in the novel-driven timeline -- old-vs-new stories tend to use a different metaphor. The average Gond-worshipper is a smith or other craftsman, with the big-machines stuff on the far edge. But there is some discord between Gond and Oghma: Faiths & Avatars says 'He has grown very independent as his own power waxes... Gond is always making new things. He often presses Oghma for their release into the mortal world without thinking through completely the impact they will have.'
Smart observation, PDK. |
Edited by - Faraer on 13 Apr 2008 17:14:38 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 17:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I'll tell you how: whereas Tolkien saw the orcish siege engines as the "fantasy breakers", born out of observations on real-world tanks, machine guns, and other new weapons used in WWI and WWII (shall I even add airplanes = wyvern-mounted Naazguls?), now we see the Cold War fantasy authors trying to conclude every novel by a catastrophic event such as the Spellplague, a violent rift in the shadow plane absorbing Tilverton, the massive explosion of Shade's Mythallar at the hands of a "crack team" of Chosen commandos, etc. etc. etc. It's the modern man's constant fear that this currently achieved and almost decadent level of comfort will be taken away from him in one split-second of extreme, unimaginable, unmanageable and uncontrollable violence (the so-called Cold War nuke always looming around the corner...)
That was brilliant PDK.  |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 13 Apr 2008 17:02:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 19:36:50
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Remember too that "technology" simply means "applied knowledge". A wheel is technology, a campfire is technology.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 21:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Remember too that "technology" simply means "applied knowledge". A wheel is technology, a campfire is technology.
True, but what modernity brought in Europe was a different approach to the perception and development of technology. In early medieval Europe, technology had been largely adaptive. By that I mean if something didn't work right or well enough, you fixed it. For example, when the front wheels of four wheeled carts scraped at turns, someone thought of adding a pivot for the front axle. Technology was about adapting to problems in the present.
In his book "The Victory of Reason" (Random House 2005), Rodney Stark gives an interesting take on the growth of technology in the late Medieval period. I'm not sure if it directly applies to the discussion of Modernity and the Realms, but it might spark some ideas.
According to Stark, the change in perceptions of technology began midway the 13th Century. First, Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) popularized the notion that because God is rational and has endowed humankind with reason, we may or rather must draw closer to him by employing reason to understand his designing hand in nature. Because God was perceived as above nature, as apposed to in nature, the objectivization of creation was not seen as sacrilegious, as it was in animistic cultures. On the contrary, it was seen as an act of devotion, a fulfillment of the divine mandate of Genesis to "fill the earth and subdue it" (Gen. 1:28). Poor Thomas had no idea that he was sowing the seeds empiricism and the scientific method, which, when applied to philosophy, would threaten the established church.
Then, in the late 14th Century, estates owned by the religious orders began to specialize in products for which they had a comparative advantage (wine, cheese, cloth, etc.). Religious belief in the moral benefits of a simple lifestyle (at least among the rank and file) allowed for consumption to be intentionally curtailed, which in turn allowed for the investment of surplus into activities and technologies that would increase future surpluses. Thus was born capital investment and R&D. The development of technology was no longer just adaptive, it became an intentional activity aimed at long term gain.
According to Stark, this new approach to the development of technology was married seamlessly with existing Christian notions of a God who was both rational and above nature. Technology in the Modern era became a very different thing than it had been before. It implied the loss of mystical, animistic notions of gods as manifestations of nature, and the growth of a notion of nature as a thing, an object to be studied and manipulated for material gain; with no guilt or fear of divine retribution.
For what it's worth, that is one take on technology and modernity. Does this apply in any way to the Realms?
Cheers,
Afet
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Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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The Forgotten Realms and Modernity
