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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
536 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 13:31:07
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I don't know how many of you frequent wikipedia but I for one do so a lot. It has just recently been brought to my attention that there is a conflict of interest within wikipedia's moderation, reference article here.
You may wonder how this is relevant to the Realms? Well apparently some FR articles have been removed by the side that believes in deletion. Here are some recent deletions I was able to dig up, Nethril, Delete FR-related articles, and Deletion Log.
I often use wikipedia for quick mid-game searches if I forget the domains of a god or if I need some quick info but I guess it might become harder and harder to do so if this is kept up.
I figured others here might want to know about this I am not sure if we could do anything about it.
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The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 13:51:45
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I usually don't look up stuff in wikipedia during the game, and if I need some obscure realmslore I check my books first and foremost, since I now own almost everything RPG-related... which will change with 4e FR, but I don't mind that one bit.
However, it is strange that those deletions happen now |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 14:04:58
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mmmh, trustworthiness of wikipedia or not - I use it sometimes but only rarely since I have my books and this very board to consult on matters at question. Therefore I actually don't care much about deleted FR-articles. Anyhow, a few days ago I 'did' search FR related with wiki and came to this site
Forgotten Realms Wiki
Now, whats the deal with that one? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 12 Mar 2008 14:18:49 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 14:35:30
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This isn't the first time something like this has happened. I've seen other deletion-sprees targeted at anything fictional.
Mind you, Wikipedia isn't very reliable at the best of times.
As pointed out. the FR Wiki seems a good alternative, if a bit threadbare at the moment. Is there anyone here involved in that? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 15:11:21
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Wikipedia isn't the best source for FR information.
That being said, I have to admit I like using it to look up "trivial" matters, even though deep down I know the really trivial stuff isn't quite encyclopediac. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 17:42:16
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I had my Najara entry deleted - Reason: Fictional geography is irrelevant!
I did a check on the guy who did the deletion - he targets TONS of FR and other fantasy articles, deleting them whenever he comes across them.
In his comments, he even says his editting is 'very biased', and he removes whatever he personally doesn't care for. 
He also writes a LOT of articles about Finland.
I tried to find some way of reporting his articles... because Finland is irrelevant. 
I was also going to go on a rampage, reporting EVER fictional refernce in Wiki, but that would eliminate at least half of whats in there, and besides, that would put me on the same level as that turd.
You see, thats the whole problem with Wiki - ANYONE can wield the power. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Mar 2008 17:43:22 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 19:02:05
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This guy's very biased towards the FR, or all articles about fictional settings?
I don't see the point in singling out the FR setting but ignoring in-universe articles about, say, Star Wars.
How have they decided what's irrelevant? For example, is Wikipedia only going to contain articles that you could find in, say, the Encyclopedia Britainica (sp)? Or, are they going to leave in articles about "trivial" subjects such as American Idol or celebrities (complete with People Magazine style celebrity gossip)? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Mar 2008 19:07:23 |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 20:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
mmmh, trustworthiness of wikipedia or not - I use it sometimes but only rarely since I have my books and this very board to consult on matters at question. Therefore I actually don't care much about deleted FR-articles. Anyhow, a few days ago I 'did' search FR related with wiki and came to this site
Forgotten Realms Wiki
Now, whats the deal with that one?
I sometimes use this site. I did not find mistakes yet.
On the contrary from wikipedia, only FR fans go to forgottenrealms.wikia! By definition !
I think the risk of deletions because of irrelevant articles is less high than wikipedia's one !
I must admit I never had time... courage in fact, to add new information within this knowledge source. |
"Today is a good day to smile",
Fillow Big'n'Book Mahlemiut 'Lead-dog', Son of Garl, Wanderer of the Masked Leaf and Namer of Oghma.
- Fight in the arena and have fun ! : La brute.com
- Feel free to take part to these projects : Post-Spellplague bibliography ; 4E index project ; Taverns and inns of the Realms ; Dogs of the Realms ; Descriptions of places in the novels ; forums, RPG, FR Abbreviations and Acronyms
- Come and have a look at the already asked questions from the Forgotten Realms Trivia Challenge
I am a French FR fan, so please forgive my lapses in English language and do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks a lot. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 20:43:19
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I was watching an interview with Chris Perkins on YouTube and he made a quick mention about them creating an official Forgotten Realms wiki:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXlzewwShU0
Not sure how this will affect the one thats out there already though. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 20:44:12
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| Well I am aware that Eilistraee article is subject to posible deletion. This in part because of edits made by non members. It also in the past was defaced. To protect FR material it appears one must both become a member and reference sources as much as posible. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 20:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I was watching an interview with Chris Perkins on YouTube and he made a quick mention about them creating an official Forgotten Realms wiki:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXlzewwShU0
Not sure how this will affect the one thats out there already though.
Bah. They'll update it for several months, maybe even a year or two, and then forget about it. It's what they do with most of their online content... A classic example is their Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction timeline, which was published circa 2000 and never updated.
I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just looking at their past track record. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 21:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Bah. They'll update it for several months, maybe even a year or two, and then forget about it. It's what they do with most of their online content... A classic example is their Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction timeline, which was published circa 2000 and never updated.
I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just looking at their past track record.
That is because (IMO), even though they will not say it outright, WotC's actions show that they secretly hate the Realms. However, since the novel line is so lucrative, they are unwilling to just discontinue the franchise and let the rights revert to Ed. Instead, they have to beat it into the ground and humiliate first. (Sorry, bitterness for the atrocity that they are calling the 4e Realms seeping out.  ) |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 21:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Bah. They'll update it for several months, maybe even a year or two, and then forget about it. It's what they do with most of their online content... A classic example is their Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction timeline, which was published circa 2000 and never updated.
I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just looking at their past track record.
That is because (IMO), even though they will not say it outright, WotC's actions show that they secretly hate the Realms. However, since the novel line is so lucrative, they are unwilling to just discontinue the franchise and let the rights revert to Ed. Instead, they have to beat it into the ground and humiliate first. (Sorry, bitterness for the atrocity that they are calling the 4e Realms seeping out. )
I doubt they are hating it... but as their design philosophy (if it can be called such at any rate) changes, so do the settings... to accomodate that philosophy.
Maybe they don't like the Realms as much as say Eberron because so much stuff has gone before WotC's FR, about one decade of lore that does not target the magic-crowd etc. Maybe they've come to realize that the old Realms are actually the intellectual (by the fullest LITERAL meaning of the word) property of the fans who can pinpoint screw-ups far more accurately than the editors etc.
They need to get control back, even if that means alienating everyone else. Hell, who knows, maybe they already have designed a plan to sell Drizzt etc action figures via Hasbro. To get those cross-sales running they need to get rid of those people who would have none of that... namely us |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 01:24:31
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| Hey, thanks Wooly. I've been trying to find that resource since they moved urls and my bookmark broke. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 06:17:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I was watching an interview with Chris Perkins on YouTube and he made a quick mention about them creating an official Forgotten Realms wiki:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXlzewwShU0
Not sure how this will affect the one thats out there already though.
Bah. They'll update it for several months, maybe even a year or two, and then forget about it. It's what they do with most of their online content... A classic example is their Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction timeline, which was published circa 2000 and never updated.
I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just looking at their past track record.
Oh I totally agree with you on that one. What stuck me in that interview though is that WoTC somehow feels that they know what is best for the Realms and that really irked me. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 06:23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Bah. They'll update it for several months, maybe even a year or two, and then forget about it. It's what they do with most of their online content... A classic example is their Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction timeline, which was published circa 2000 and never updated.
I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just looking at their past track record.
That is because (IMO), even though they will not say it outright, WotC's actions show that they secretly hate the Realms. However, since the novel line is so lucrative, they are unwilling to just discontinue the franchise and let the rights revert to Ed. Instead, they have to beat it into the ground and humiliate first. (Sorry, bitterness for the atrocity that they are calling the 4e Realms seeping out. )
I doubt they are hating it... but as their design philosophy (if it can be called such at any rate) changes, so do the settings... to accomodate that philosophy.
Maybe they don't like the Realms as much as say Eberron because so much stuff has gone before WotC's FR, about one decade of lore that does not target the magic-crowd etc. Maybe they've come to realize that the old Realms are actually the intellectual (by the fullest LITERAL meaning of the word) property of the fans who can pinpoint screw-ups far more accurately than the editors etc.
They need to get control back, even if that means alienating everyone else. Hell, who knows, maybe they already have designed a plan to sell Drizzt etc action figures via Hasbro. To get those cross-sales running they need to get rid of those people who would have none of that... namely us
They ARE trying to court the Magic crowd aren't they? Maybe thats why the cover of Dragon issue 363 bugs me so much. It looks like it came right off of a Magic card. Argh!!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 07:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just looking at their past track record.
Or Ed's articles on the Border Kingdoms, which stopped half-way through (and NOT because of Ed), or the fact that they offered the first digital issue of Dragon (360) as a download, but since then you have to compile the articles together yourself! What the point of them even 'doing covers' if they aren't going to be presented in book format?
Yeah, it seems like they are good at starting something, and then they just let it Fizzle after awhile.
I wonder if a company can get ADD? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2008 07:12:01 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 13:29:21
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| Well I for one have now bookmarked this FR Wiki page...looks pretty good. The regular Wikipedia is a strange place (after all, wrestler Chris Benoit's murders were reported there before anywhere else...) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 17:16:00
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Hmm I hate to say it but apart from the 2ed free downloads and some of the designer articles, WotC's online content has never particularly impressed me.
I've been perusing the FRwiki the last few days too it's got potential but needs some dedicated hours from a few people of Kuje's and George Krashos' powers before it'd be really useful.
It also suffers from an abundace of Baldurs Gate players and Drizzt fans who haven't quite grasped the concept of canon/non-canon and opinions formed on the basis of reading a couple of Bob's novels don't quite trump 20 years of established canon! 
[edited for fat fingers (new ergo-keyboard)] |
Edited by - BlackAce on 13 Mar 2008 17:22:37 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 19:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
It also suffers from an abundace of Baldurs Gate players and Drizzt fans who haven't quite grasped the concept of canon/non-canon and opinions formed on the basis of reading a couple of Bob's novels don't quite trump 20 years of established canon!
Agreed--I love the BG series, myself, but it's almost a seperate fandom (same goes for Drizzt, really). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Mar 2008 19:04:51 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 20:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Agreed--I love the BG series, myself, but it's almost a seperate fandom (same goes for Drizzt, really).
I also love the BG series and am a fan of Drizzt but I am an even bigger fan of FR overall also. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 20:38:53
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I stopped contributing to Wikipedia after the deletion. Before that, I used to contribute here, and was invited to contribute to the FR Wiki (by its creator), but in both cases thought better of it. You see, I really don't think WotC has the gumption or the talent to put anything decent together in that regard, so I have a funny feeling they will be looking to 'purchase' one that is already built by a 3rd party (FR Wiki, here, some others...), just like they did when they purchased Brian's wonderful, formerly FREE, GHotR.
It just struck me as 'odd' that the guy who started the FR Wiki started it IMEDIATELY following the announcement at Gencon that WoTC would be hosting one on their site. Call me paranoid, but I don't feel like busting my hump producing material for something that someone plans on making money on without me.
If they ever actually get around to having a Wiki (that we MUST PAY FOR), I'm am 95% positive that they will get it from somewhere else, and like the GHotR, charge us for a resource that used to be free.
They aren't doing us any favors here, believe you me. 
If there is any 'theme' to their online endeavors thus far, I think it would best be described as 'half-@ssed'. 
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Well I for one have now bookmarked this FR Wiki page...looks pretty good. The regular Wikipedia is a strange place (after all, wrestler Chris Benoit's murders were reported there before anywhere else...)
You know... I went to look up Gary Gygax after hearing about his death, and the Wiki entry was the FIRST online resource to have a death date posted...
Weird....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 21:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I've been perusing the FRwiki the last few days too it's got potential but needs some dedicated hours from a few people of Kuje's and George Krashos' powers before it'd be really useful.
I'd love to help but not if it feels as if I'm going to waste my time because someone came by and deleted entries they felt they didn't want to read, etc. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 03:01:02
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Kuje, that was WIKIPEDIA, NOT the FR Wiki - they are two seperate things. From what I understand, the FR Wiki is better maintained and monitored, and since only FR fans will likely even find the site, there is only a VERY slim chance that someone will come along and "mess with it".
The FR Wiki seems the more accurate and better organized (as far as FR articles are concerned), but as I have stated above, I have my own reasons for not wanting to contribute. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2008 03:07:59 |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2008 : 20:20:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Kuje, that was WIKIPEDIA, NOT the FR Wiki - ...
The FR Wiki seems the more accurate and better organized (as far as FR articles are concerned),
As I wrote above, I agree with that. Even if I'm not a great specialist of the FR. |
"Today is a good day to smile",
Fillow Big'n'Book Mahlemiut 'Lead-dog', Son of Garl, Wanderer of the Masked Leaf and Namer of Oghma.
- Fight in the arena and have fun ! : La brute.com
- Feel free to take part to these projects : Post-Spellplague bibliography ; 4E index project ; Taverns and inns of the Realms ; Dogs of the Realms ; Descriptions of places in the novels ; forums, RPG, FR Abbreviations and Acronyms
- Come and have a look at the already asked questions from the Forgotten Realms Trivia Challenge
I am a French FR fan, so please forgive my lapses in English language and do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks a lot. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 03:33:39
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quote:
It just struck me as 'odd' that the guy who started the FR Wiki started it IMEDIATELY following the announcement at Gencon that WoTC would be hosting one on their site. Call me paranoid, but I don't feel like busting my hump producing material for something that someone plans on making money on without me.
Ummm FR Wiki has been around for YEARS before WoTC ever mentioned doing a Wiki at GenCon.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 13:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
quote:
It just struck me as 'odd' that the guy who started the FR Wiki started it IMEDIATELY following the announcement at Gencon that WoTC would be hosting one on their site. Call me paranoid, but I don't feel like busting my hump producing material for something that someone plans on making money on without me.
Ummm FR Wiki has been around for YEARS before WoTC ever mentioned doing a Wiki at GenCon.
Yes, he knows that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 00:34:01
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| You write that as if I should have known? |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 03:30:58
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Wikipedia has standards as to what is "noteworthy". Outside our hobby, the Forgotten Realms aren't referenced, do not have broad, cultural impact, and while I do love the setting, I can understand the deletion policy.
When fantasy game settings become the subject of journalism or scholarly review, we can think about posting up on Wikipedia. For now, a wiki devoted to our particular hobby or setting is the way to go. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 14:42:16
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| But as I mentioned before, I'm sure you can find plenty of things on Wikipedia that have nothing to do with being "scholarly" (I'm sure Britney Spears still has a page there). My point is that if Wikipedia is so concerned with subjects are scholarly, they aren't applying that criteria equally. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Apr 2008 14:46:11 |
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Topic |
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Wikipedia Deletions
