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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 00:33:06
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...some questions and musings about the sharnwall, or more exactly: about the Phaerimm's possibilities to escape their prison.
The following applies to the situation before the return of the Shadovar. The time of my campaign is around 1371 DR, the general region is the eastern border of the Anauroch, in the southern foothills of the desertsmouth mountains. On the old 2e maps there are three rivers flowing westward out of the hills and into the desert. That's about the place, just to give you an idea...
I try to understand the Phaerimm better, and there's one thing about the whole Sharnwall-story that I just don't get: The Sharnwall is what keeps the thornbacks from leaving. OK so far. It has to be a three-dimensional effect, else they could fly over or tunnel under it. Good.
But we know that Phaerimm are powerful mages/sorcerers/whateveryoucallit - there was even a comparison with Elminster in at least one 2e book! FR13 Anauroch tells us most of them are wizards of 22nd to 27th level, and specifically mentiones that they devise many unique spells. Which seems to imply that they are not only very intelligent (supra-genius, INT19-20!) but also VERY creative. In other words: These guys should find a way out there! So what about teleport spells? Why didn't they construct a portal to another dimension? Go ehteral? Zip themselves to the Astral plane? An elemental plane? Heck, why not the shadow plane? The underdark has quite a lot of portals, even without the earth nodes that were introduced in 3rd edition. Or is the underdark below the Anauroch portal-free? Why would it?
What I'm trying to ask is: For mages of level 20 or even 30 and higher there are loads of possibilities to leave a place. We were never told that all the aforementioned magics are NOT working in the anauroch (i.e. inside the Sharnwall), so we have to assume they do work.
...or better: they do work for us. It seems to be a bit far-fetched to assume that all these kinds of magics and spells can be banned specifically for the Phaerimm - and even if it were so, they could have hired non-phaerimm underlings that would do the spellweaving for them. Heck, there are even known gates in the Anauroch! Why are they not using them?
I am looking for a believable* and creative way to explain why the situation is the way we are told in the books. I can absolutely live with the thornbacks being imprisoned there (I love it actually, because it's a great plot hook), and I don't intend to tell my players even half of the dark about them. But I want at least to understand the whole thing myself.
*i.e. a non-"deus ex machina"-way. You know: the way things were explained in 2nd edition, when everything made sense... 
So far, the only thing I came up with is the following, but I am not really happy with it: Each and every Phaerimm inside the Sharnwall, and each and every of their offspring** is kind of "marked" or has some kind of "dimensional anchor"-effect on itself that cannot be dispelled and prevents them to leave the Sharnwall.
** There we already have another problem: In this scenario, what would happen to the poor soul that got infected with a Phaerimm egg? Could he leave the area? If this were so, the thornbacks would long have discovered this way out (at least for their race, if not for themselves).
Maybe I missed one or more crucial details about how these guys got imprisoned - and are kept imprisoned. Anyway, I'm curious about your opinions! 
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 07:23:03
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Could the that the Sharnwall is a so. . . dang, I don't know if this will conflict with existing lore. I don't know much about this stuff because it usually makes me shake my head. But I'll try to come up with something that makes sense anyhow.
So, could be that the Sharnwall is a sort of "extra dimensional" effect. Basically, the Sharn trapped the Phaerimm in the "Sharnwall effect" where they stuck them in a pocket dimension that they created. Around this pocket dimension is the Sharnwall, which is an impenetrable effect (well, not impenetrable, but the next best thing to impenetrable, the sort of thing the Imaskar wish they could have done).
This, of course, hinges upon the Sharn's superiority. I'm sort of ambivalent to the whole deal but if you didn't want the Sharn that much more powerful than the Phaerimm you could;
Make time itself go back forever, making the Phaerimm imprisonment not that big a deal in their timescale.
Or
Have the Sharn have made a deal with "something else".
Or
Bunches of the Sharn sacrificed themselves to build the wall.
Or
There might be a good canon explanation. I don't know. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 08:25:26
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The illustration on p.73 of "Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark" is a fair indication of what the sharnwall was 'like'. As to 'how' it worked, just what are you looking for? In other words, are you looking for a game mechanics explanation (as your 'dimensional anchor' suggestion seems to imply) or an all-encompassing lore explanation.
The sharnwall is exactly what it has always been described to be: a magical barrier that prevents the phaerimm who reside in the environs of Anauroch from travelling to areas outside the sharnwall. That doesn't mean that the sharnwall prevents planar or ethereal travel - but it simply means that when said plane-hopping phaerimm seek to return to the Torilian plane, they are shunted straight back into Anauroch.
I don't see why you are troubled by a 'deux ex machina' explanation for the sharnwall; it's certainly nothing that would impact on gameplay that I can see. But then again, some people's view of the Realms seems to come into sharper focus when they can attach tracts from the PH, DMG and other rule books to what 'is'.
As for your musings re phaerimm infecting host bodies and having them travel outside the sharnwall barrier, either the barrier is keyed to prevent the passage of phaerimm eggs also, or if it isn't, the sharn themselves are diligent in hunting down and slaying those individuals who act as such hosts and any phaerimm young that may hatch from these creatures. Of course, every once in a while, they'll miss one.
Of the two postulations above, I prefer the latter as it allows DMs to have small numbers of roaming phaerimm throughout Faerūn - which the sources clearly support as being the case.
Then again, there currently is no sharnwall according to the current timeline so I guess it's all idle speculation.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 14:15:24
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Thanks both of you fpr your insights!
quote:
I don't see why you are troubled by a 'deux ex machina' explanation for the sharnwall; it's certainly nothing that would impact on gameplay that I can see. But then again, some people's view of the Realms seems to come into sharper focus when they can attach tracts from the PH, DMG and other rule books to what 'is'.
I don't specifically look for rules/game mechanics. The "dimensional anchor" was just one spell from 2e that came to my mind when I was looking for the right words. The way my friends and I play lore always trumps rules.
Your "shunt straight back into Anauroch"-idea is interesting, as it allows planewalking Phaerimm who can be the powerful villains behind a campaign almost everywhere on Faerun (they are just one portal away!  ) while time preventing them from directly wrecking havoc in the realms. The only way for the PC to permanently stop them would be the classic "invade the BBEG's lair" method.
Again: I don't need the rulebooks to "support" me, it's just that I feel I don't understand the logic behind this piece of lore. Imagine a whole society of powerful individuals, each of them super-intelligent and a highly capable mage, imprisoned in their own realm. They are not imprisoned like in a real prison but have all their ressources at hand! What would happen if a nation of similar humans was facing that fate? They would found liberation-councils or other organizations dedicated to break free. Freedom would become the whole focus of their nation. They would research new magics, and this problem would unleash an enormous creative power. It should be somewhat similar with the Phaerimm, I guess...
I read somewhere that the Phaerimm are highly individualistic and sometimes even scheme against each other, but that should not prevent them of working together on their common primary goal: freedom. This is at least how I picture them, and that's where I don't see why the situation is still, after centuries of imprisonment, the way it is today in the Realms. If planewalking would be an option, these guys could have wandered of to somewhere else long ago. They should be powerful enough to find a nice world somewhere else in the multiverse, at least that's my thinking... What's keeping them there? |
Edited by - tauster on 13 Apr 2008 14:20:05 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 23:33:50
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If you want a parallel in simple, classic fantasy tropes, think of genie bottles. The Genie in Aladdin's story is all-powerful...but he's tied to the lamp in some inexplicable way that defies all other magics it can generate. I see the Sharnwall binding as something similar--it ties to the phaerimm on some deep level that they can't touch/affect, despite all their power and intellect.
If you're asking for a better game-tied explanation for that, I've got nothing. I was always the story/"fluff" designer far more than the mechanics/rules/"crunch" guy.
George's comments are as brilliant as I've learned to expect from him. And also, he remembers that there are freed phaerimm wandering about the Realms, so that factor has to be tied into it.
Now, for further thought on this (but not too deep as I'm riffing off the top of my head), try this on:
The Sharnwall could potentially have some magic in it that actively keeps the phaerimm within it paranoid and untrusting of each other, simply to prevent the sort of "putting our heads together" sort of alliance you mentioned. Also, one problem if everybody in your society is a super-genius is the one-upsmanship and territoriality that comes from trying to prove you're better than the others. It (and pride) keeps them from admitting weakness and asking for help in dealing with the problem. (Yeah, that's a weak excuse, I know, but it's one facet of a real gem of a problem, okay? )
Another aspect of the Sharnwall's High Magics (or whatever) could be that certain spells do not function within its area of effect. If Shoon IV could prevent all but necromancy spells from operating in Shoonach, I'm fairly sure that a whole lot of transformed High Mages could cobble together something to shut down a whole lot of avenues of power.
Another thought is this--What if the Sharnwall also works similarly to that old Harrison Bergeron story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron) and short-circuits the brains/intellects of the phaerimm down to equivalent of the dumbest among them? (Since I can't remember how they propagate, I'm not going to speculate on a society rendered as dumb as the latest newborn...which would make it hard for them to communicate, let alone teach the next generation.) Still, the idea of something within the magics that interferes with them thinking brilliant thoughts--They've been ear-wormed so they can't get "Afternoon Delight" out of their heads! Just kidding....
It's been shown that the Sharnwall could be pierced from outside with sufficiently powerful magics--that very vague beheaded-Harpers ritual by the vampire mage in BLACKSTAFF's prologue was one that temporarily bored a hole through the Sharnwall and allowed a half-dozen or so phaerimm out of captivity. I'm happy to say I didn't let them live terribly long, but an alliance of convenience with someone outside the wall is often the most apt way for a phaerimm to get out of there. (And before you ask, I've no details on that ritual used by Palron Kaeth other than it took the full blood and souls of at least a dozen peole to make it happen. Bear in mind by then he's both a vampire and at least 100 years old and a former student of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor, so what he could do magically is up to every DM.)
And one more social/psychological reason for the lack of cooperation and social-order to break their prison is this: If you're able to get out WITHOUT a whole lot of others escaping with you, that puts you in the driver's seat of power. Why endanger or share the world rulership you're certain will be yours by telling others what you're planning to do?
Sorry this doesn't necessarily answer the questions you have, but it's my insights on how I approached the characters and why things fell the way they did in stories and games. Your mileage may vary.
Steven
whose simplest answer is "The Sharnwall does what it does because we needed it to explain why the phaerimm hadn't conquered the world after the fall of Netheril." |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Edited by - Steven Schend on 13 Apr 2008 23:45:01 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 04:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
whose simplest answer is "The Sharnwall does what it does because we needed it to explain why the phaerimm hadn't conquered the world after the fall of Netheril."
I like this one. It's like JMS (of Babylon 5) being asked how fast his starships go: "They move at the speed of plot." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 06:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
whose simplest answer is "The Sharnwall does what it does because we needed it to explain why the phaerimm hadn't conquered the world after the fall of Netheril."
I like this one. It's like JMS (of Babylon 5) being asked how fast his starships go: "They move at the speed of plot."
The reason I like it is because things like this end up making me the most creative. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 22:10:36
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I must admit, I'm much like the person asking the question. I like to understand the workings of magic at least to a somewhat achievable degree. What I would see the Sharnwall as is a very powerful type of Mythal. Much as how Mythals can be keyed to work against certain races, the Sharnwall targets individuals within its confines. The spell does not dimensionally anchor them, because they can transport WITHIN the sharnwall with no issue. However, the spell simply prevents Sharn from using any magic that would transport their physical form outside of the Sharn Wall. It couldn't be that they just "can't picture their destination" because they could use an outsider to transport them..... unless, there's an addendum that affects all casters from casting translocation magics on other Sharn.
The problem with saying their physical form would be that a Sharn who turns themselves PERMANENTLY into say a ghost could transport themselves out of the Sharn Wall. Of course, turning themselves into a ghost also makes them no longer Sharn.... so theoretically, this isn't breaking the rules. Of course, then there would be some Sharn who would use some kind of magic to turn themselves INTO something else permanently somehow, leave, then have a contingent effect that would turn them back into their normal selves.
This leads down the path that the "Mythal" or Sharn Wall instead ties itself to the spirit of the Sharn.
Damn, time to leave, I really want to explore this more. Kinda fun.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 19:15:31
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You know what I like about you Steven? You never come off with that 'Omnipotent 3rd person' way of presenting FR lore. you just say "look... I'm a fan of the setting, just look you guys, but if I had to..."
I've seen way too many people, even ones who don't have ANY design or author credits to their name, try to come off as 'FR authorities'.
I like how you always try to fit in somewhere that "Its YOUR game, and it works however YOU want it to". So many people loose sight of that...
Anyhow, On topic -
I've picture something similar to what Mr. Schend has postulated - thats its more of a mental thing. Anyone here read any of the Xanth novels? Although thats a quirky, whimsical series that has very little to do with FR, it does contain a couple of gems.
In that setting, 'The Gap Chasm' is completely unknown to everyone who lives in Xanth - even though it cuts the entire region in half, it doesn't even appear on any maps! The reason is because it has a VERY powerful Forget Spell cast upon it, and anyone seeing it forgets about immediately after loosing sight of it. Also, the entire Xanthan Peninsula works that way to the outside world - no one can ever find there way back to it, because they forget where or what it is the second they leave.
What if the Sharn Wall worked that way? Instead of being a physical barrier, it just sort of makes the Phaerimm forget about whatever they were doing when they get near it? That means the ones on the interior of the region don't even realize there is a Sharnwall, because they always wander home after forgetting whatever they had planned. That would make any sort of concentrated effort against it impossible, as well as explain why they haven't bother to band together in any meaningful way to 'end it'. Until they run into it, they don't know its there! And when they leave, so does there memories of it.
Now, someone working from the outside could contact the Phaerimm through the wall (or just pas through it themselves), and lead the Phaerimm out, even though they become temporarily 'stupid' (forgetful) as they pass through (I figure the 'wall' itself probably radiates a field around it for several hundred feet).
Also, the occasional Phaerimm would wander through anyway, because it didn't have anything to forget - it was just 'out for a stroll'. That means it would wander aimlessly through the barrier and out the otherside, completely unaware of what it was doing. that occurrence would be extremely rare, but would explain how some do in fact make it through.
Once on the outside, they may not be so quick to contact their brethren who are still 'trapped', because of some of the reasons stated above by others. Also, the barrier could effect any sort of communication (spell, psionics, etc) that a Phaerimm attempts through it, and once again cause the Phaerimm to forget whatever it was in the middle of.
It's kind of a cheesy explanantion, but I sort of like that the only thing holding those powerful mages back was their own minds.
And lets not foget the Silver Surfer - when he finally pierced Galactus's 'barrier', it was because he realized the barrier was never really meant to effect HIM physically... just his board. That, like the explanation I offer above, is more of a 'mental obstacle', then a physical one. Once you figure out the trick to it, it's pretty easy to get around it. |
Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2008 19:24:15 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 11:36:47
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@Markustay: I like that explanation, but it's stated in some books (dont have them here right now) that the Phaerimm try to find a way to pierce the Sharnwall, luring adventures int the Anauroch with rumors of netherese treasures and so on, spread by their charmed minions who all can go through the Sharnwall. They even have aone (or more?) complete beholder cities under their control (Oolthul coming to mind), where their beholder-mooks trade slaves, magic and knowledge with outsiders. The purpose is to eventually find some magic that will pierce the wall.
..at least thats what I seem to remember; have to check that later... |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 16:03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know what I like about you Steven? You never come off with that 'Omnipotent 3rd person' way of presenting FR lore. you just say "look... I'm a fan of the setting, just look you guys, but if I had to..."
I've seen way too many people, even ones who don't have ANY design or author credits to their name, try to come off as 'FR authorities'.
I like how you always try to fit in somewhere that "Its YOUR game, and it works however YOU want it to". So many people loose sight of that...
That's all I've ever been--an FR fan who just happened to work at TSR as well. And as a game designer, Ed & Jeff Grubb both instilled in me some simple codas I've tried to stick with since 1990:
Always open more doors than you close.
Remember that what we write has to be able to fit in as many people's games as possible.
If you're not having fun writing it, no one's going to have fun reading it or playing it.
Always answer questions at FR seminars first with "Well, what do you want to happen?" or "What do YOU think happened?" (and that's almost always result in me, Ed, Karen, and others chuckling evilly and discussing how to make that work in the next thing...)
So thanks, Marcus, for the kind words. I'm just a bloke who lucked out into doing this for a living, that's all. Doesn't make my opinion any stronger than anyone else's around here; the ONLY thing I can opine/comment on that no one else can is why I wrote whatever I did in whatever product. And even then, if you've got a better idea on how to make that work for YOU, go with that 9 times out of ten.
Steven
who's really gotta get out of here and to work on a scenario for his Game & Adventure Design class |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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The Sharnwall: Questions and speculations
