| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 04:51:07
|
Great article, Brian, and maybe it'll convince those new to the Realms to check it out. I'm sure it will. But to those like me, it's only driven me further away from 4E Realms.
I guess the point I am making is, no matter how pretty they make 4E Realms, the fact remains that every single aspect about it has been changed so drastically that it's really not the same setting anymore. You cannot put the two settings side-by-side (pre-4E and post-4E Realms) and draw any real similarities except for names of people and places.
I can see 4E maybe rising up in popularity, but I really doubt the Realms will lift off the ground at all, maybe hover slightly, only to crash and burn. I also don't like how it has to feel more like "Eberron", either. |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 05:09:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I found out that the Nobanion sidebar was pulled because the FR design team is going another direction with our furry friend and this outdated version accidently slipped through editing.
Curious. So the details presented weren't actually finalised?
I seem to recall you saying something about trying to keep as close to the Nobanion-related Realmslore we currently have, while writing this article. Though, I'm left to wonder just how this could've occured given the research already done on Nobanion himself.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Feb 2008 05:10:43 |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 10:12:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
I know very few of the Realmspace, and don´t have any stuff, sooo, here´s the question:
Why there was an illusion covering the verdant Selune? And who put this illusion there?
Perhaps because the Leiran worshippers were somewhat xenophobic, and concerned about an invasion from Toril. The illusion was crafted by Leira herself. It makes/made the moon appear to be a barren rock, hiding the actual landscape.
Ah, this explains it. I was not aware of it, as I don't own any Spelljammer stuff.  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 10:23:06
|
As I was looking at the 4E FR characters from D&D Experience, I noticed that Erais the Sunlord was a cleric *Amaunator*.
Here's the link to the character sheet:
Annoyingly big link!
Mod edit: Recoded the link, since it was stretching the page.  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Feb 2008 15:31:18 |
|
|
|
Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 12:25:26
|
Having only read the first "draft" of this article - I can't get WOTC forums in work - one thing I noticed that hasn't been commented on yet was the inclusion of 2001 in the realms? I'd like to know what illegal substance they were smoking when they came up with this!
The more I read about the 4E realms, the more I think I'll stick with AD&D! |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 12:32:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin
Having only read the first "draft" of this article - I can't get WOTC forums in work - one thing I noticed that hasn't been commented on yet was the inclusion of 2001 in the realms? I'd like to know what illegal substance they were smoking when they came up with this!
The more I read about the 4E realms, the more I think I'll stick with AD&D!
I noted that, but it wasn't prominent enough for me to comment on (the fact that it's sighted in different spots and that there has been no recorded instances of contact with the obelisk or consequence from its appearance). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 13:15:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by chance87
Relieved to hear that - for now. I just couldn't grasp how the one diety who embodied inherent nobility (and seemed to hold more paladin-esque qualities than either Tyr or Torm, at least to me) could be nerfed to the point that he became an unaligned tree-huggin' druid stuck in animal form.
It suddenly occurs to me (don't know why it never did before), that Nobanion would have been a better fit in the Triad than Ilmater. Justice, Duty, and Nobility. Although Mercy seems at first blush to belong as well, I think of it as being a little less...militant, for lack of a better word, than the others, and better suited for grouping with Llira and Eldath.
It's pretty incredible how different various people view Nobanion, I certainly never saw him as a paladin type deity (barring Wemics and I'd really rather have a Wemic Pantheon than have them worship a human deity) but I can see where you're coming from (though I totally disagree with him being more paladinesque than Tyr or Torm *g*)
As for the second part, Mercy is the most important part of the Triad. Especially because there is such a militant side. |
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 13:42:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical.
The TSR designers quite rightly wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways.
VERY interesting, I seemed to have missed this first time around.
Just wondering if Lurue is in 4E and what her status is? who knows, maybe the designers might be going back to how Ed initially invisiged Lurue as 'MAGIC'? (one can hope that their might be one Deity left who's portfolio is magic perhaps? )
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 14:01:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I found out that the Nobanion sidebar was pulled because the FR design team is going another direction with our furry friend and this outdated version accidently slipped through editing.
You know what scares me the most. The core design team has had over two years to map direction and the lead time to an article tends to be about three months. The PHB, DMG and MM should be on the way to the printers, WotC can not compile the ezines for months, but can edit one article that had information not consistant with 4th (redesigning) Design Team on eve of pubucation (edited in what 12 hours?).
I know it is not your fault, just used your post as a base to rant off of.
IMO, I think that this happened because of the GreenKnight alteration of the Realms. IIRC, the boards member give the suggestion of Torm in / Tyr out (that was accepted). But I remember (I can be wrong) that he give the idea, too, that Nobanion could be promoted to the Tryad.
If this was accepted, then the "unaligned" Nobanion was really an outdated version. 
And I will like of a more powerful Nobanion. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 14:48:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would Malar turn someone into a tree? That seems rather unlike him, since trees (even treants, as the guy now is) aren't considered very savage...
Well, it could be a sort of slap in the face to the other gods... sort of a "Hey, how bout you hug THIS tree hippie!"
But I don't really mind it, so long as I think about it with the right perspective. |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 14:53:16
|
| So do we have much lore on Nobanion? I've read the stuff in Faiths and Pantheons and from the Vilhon Reach, and obviously the FRCS and such but is there much else? |
|
|
|
Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 14:57:40
|
There is much more in the 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons.
And there are some answers in Ed´s topic. Follow Kuje´s sig to the links of the compiled list of Ed´s answers. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 15:31:57
|
Thanks Chosen and Sage. :)
Edit: Well, that one was what Wooly quoted but it was great to read the how of the Knights closing that Gate. (I'm assuming that was the one in Myth Drannor) |
Edited by - ShadezofDis on 29 Feb 2008 16:00:10 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 15:34:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
As I was looking at the 4E FR characters from D&D Experience, I noticed that Erais the Sunlord was a cleric *Amaunator*.
Here's the link to the character sheet:
Annoyingly big link!
Mod edit: Recoded the link, since it was stretching the page.
I also noted that on that sheet, it says "Unaligned" -- and there's no other mention of alignment. I hope that alignment hasn't been chucked because of the people that can't figure out that "This is a guideline" means that it's a guideline.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 15:38:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would Malar turn someone into a tree? That seems rather unlike him, since trees (even treants, as the guy now is) aren't considered very savage...
Well, it could be a sort of slap in the face to the other gods... sort of a "Hey, how bout you hug THIS tree hippie!"
But I don't really mind it, so long as I think about it with the right perspective.
It doesn't make sense for someone who is all about the savagery of nature to turn one of his own followers into a tree. "Oooh, watch out, that evil tree is going to shed its leaves on you! How brutal! Ph33r!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 15:57:09
|
| I think that someone said (I don´t remember where) that unaligned = true neutral. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 16:03:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't make sense for someone who is all about the savagery of nature to turn one of his own followers into a tree. "Oooh, watch out, that evil tree is going to shed its leaves on you! How brutal! Ph33r!"
I totally understand and I share your feelings on it, I'm just saying that it could be a much more sophisticated move on Malar's part (I'm generally annoyed at how stupid Malar is portrayed) and a treant is a great "hide and pounce" type predator. I mean, I have to do some mighty mental gymnastics to justify such a move, but my mind tends to be limber when thinking about Realmslore. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:09:47
|
Brian, I skimmed through the article and most of the posts here, but although your work is great the new and improved Realms do not send the spark flying.
What I wonder is this: is the stuff in the article based on what the design team developed or is it a valiant attempt to put some reason into the stuff the "creative" folks at WotC came up with?
If it's the former I at least can see a little reason behind the move and the decision...but I doubt it.
If it's the latter, I wonder why they go through all this trouble? If it is the latter your work (and most likely that of Ed's and others) is basically showing us where what used to be in a building that stood at ground zero. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:15:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
You know, the more I think about it the more I'm not really torn. I'm pretty pro-Mystra. I just don't see Corellon being a good fit. Don't get me wrong, I dig him, but he's a bit too pro-elf for me to be behind him.
Remember though that deities are going to be less racially-oriented in 4E. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:19:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Lastly, I wonder if this article (being set in 1395 DR rather than almost a hundred years later) implies that the designers have chosen to "give in" to (relatively) many fans voicing out their concerns over advancing the timeline by a hundred years? Or does it simply mean that they're going to include two optional campaign starting years in FRCG?
Personally, I doubt it. I think it was just that the focus of this particular article was the period of 10 years during which the Spellplague was truly bad. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:25:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also noted that on that sheet, it says "Unaligned" -- and there's no other mention of alignment. I hope that alignment hasn't been chucked because of the people that can't figure out that "This is a guideline" means that it's a guideline.
From everything I've read, it looks like alignment is now down to Good, Evil, or Unaligned (I haven't seen anything regarding Law and Chaos, yet), and alignment won't matter as much in terms of rules and mechanics. However, I also read (in W&M) that alignment will now mean more. For example, if you are "Good", it means you are an active force for good and a defense against evil--it isn't enough just to agree with goodly ideals. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Feb 2008 17:26:42 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:28:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
I think that someone said (I don´t remember where) that unaligned = true neutral.
That was probably me. Yes, unaligned is more or less neutral, and most characters will be considered "unaligned". As I said in my last post, it now takes more effort, literally, to be good or evil. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:33:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
You know, the more I think about it the more I'm not really torn. I'm pretty pro-Mystra. I just don't see Corellon being a good fit. Don't get me wrong, I dig him, but he's a bit too pro-elf for me to be behind him.
Remember though that deities are going to be less racially-oriented in 4E.
Well, that is true, I just don't think I can divorce myself from the view I have of Corellon. Just doesn't fit in with the "tone and feel" of what the gods have been for the past . . . several decades anyhow. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:38:24
|
| Understood. Old concepts die hard. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:38:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[brThat was probably me. Yes, unaligned is more or less neutral, and most characters will be considered "unaligned". As I said in my last post, it now takes more effort, literally, to be good or evil.
Hmm. Thanks for the answer, RF!
I find this approach interesting, and will wait to read more about it. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:42:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[brThat was probably me. Yes, unaligned is more or less neutral, and most characters will be considered "unaligned". As I said in my last post, it now takes more effort, literally, to be good or evil.
Hmm. Thanks for the answer, RF!
I find this approach interesting, and will wait to read more about it.
You're welcome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Baroth
Acolyte
Switzerland
14 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 17:50:11
|
Great article.
The "Tone and Feel" sidebar really helps to understand the changes that were hinted at so far. But why didn't WotC simply re-imagine the FR setting if they wanted to change the tone and feel of the setting? This worked quite well in other cases (the best example is Marvels ultimate universe). They could have created the FR setting they really wanted without actually killing off the old FR and, that's the best part of the re-imagination, if the "new" FR fails to succeed they could still publish the old FR with 4e rules. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 18:52:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
*snip*
But why didn't WotC simply re-imagine the FR setting if they wanted to change the tone and feel of the setting? This worked quite well in other cases (the best example is Marvels ultimate universe). They could have created the FR setting they really wanted without actually killing off the old FR and, that's the best part of the re-imagination, if the "new" FR fails to succeed they could still publish the old FR with 4e rules.
My thinking exactly... it would've made things easier...and far less volatile |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2008 : 21:01:23
|
I won't add to whats already been said, since everyone else is already beating the topic to death. The one comment I would VERY much like to make is this -
This article felt much less like a 'slap in the face' then the previous ones, and obviously Brian has gone to great lengths to keep the 'old gaurd' happy (the time gate).
Although I might not 'like' everything that was covered, I enjoyed the article none the less and found it very informitive - much more so then previous ones.
Kudos to Brian for trying to keep everyone happy, and very nearly* succeeding.
*I say 'nearly' because NO ONE can make everyone happy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 29 Feb 2008 21:02:13 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Spellplague: The Wailing Years
