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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 08:31:18
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This from the Associated Press, by way of my local paper:
Hasbro posts 24% profit boost in Q4
Yes, despite our complaints, Hasbro's profits went from a meager $1.1 billion dollars to $1.3 billion dollars.
Do they give a flying monkey's little red jacket about what we think of their mangling of the Forgotten Realms. Hells, no! To quote Weber and Rice: "The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 09:50:07
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The point is that if the 4E Realms flop they can simply chop them and turn their attention to Eberron, which, a year (of 4E experience) later, can show the true potential of 4E D&D.
I'm not sure, but from what I hear they have already alienated large parts of the FR fanbase and the New Realms really have to be extremely good to make them come back in numbers. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 15 Feb 2008 09:51:29 |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 12:11:09
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quote:
from what I hear they have already alienated large parts of the FR fanbase
How can you make such a claim? How many people have you heard complain about the "new" Realms?
On these boards, I'm not even sure if there are 100 persons who specifically expressed their dislike of the new Realms. Out of a 40000 people fanbase, we're far from a large part...
The problem with this (and it's something that isn't specific to just Forgotten Realms, but more likely it's common to anything with a hardcore fanbase) is that the most hardcore fans in any given thing have a tendency to consider themselves the only fans...
Maybe the 4E Realms will suck and won't make any money for WotC... but I think it's very soon to start making vague predictions about the reactions of a supposed fanbased that is, in truth, mostly silent. |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 15:50:04
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I'm certainly not fan of what appears to be happening to the Realms. I don't like the reset button being used. WotC has certainly been short sighted with the endless slew of RSEs, shrinking the map, focusing on crunch over fluff, and a number of other things we’ve all discussed at one time or another on these boards.
I don't think I will support the 4E Realms; I am however going to reserve my final judgment until I see the final product. What I know of the 4E rules so far I know I don't care for. In the back of my mind I hope that WotC will drop the Realms so the rites revert back to Ed, so he can reshop the Realms to a company more suited to handle a setting and it's fans with care. A pipe dream I know…
I know WotC exists to make a profit, but they seem not to care if they alienate existing Realms fans, perhaps labeling us as zealots and writing us off in favor for a newer, younger fan base. The way I see it, so be it. There is plenty of Realms material already out there. I can work with what I already have for the rest of my life and just communicate and work with my fellow scribes to push the Realms forward however we see fit.
Just maybe 4E D&D/Realms will knock my socks off and I will convert, but likely my $ stops here for WotC. The bottom line is if WotC butchers the Realms I will no longer support them with my purchases.
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 16:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
How can you make such a claim? How many people have you heard complain about the "new" Realms?
On these boards, I'm not even sure if there are 100 persons who specifically expressed their dislike of the new Realms. Out of a 40000 people fanbase, we're far from a large part...
The problem with this (and it's something that isn't specific to just Forgotten Realms, but more likely it's common to anything with a hardcore fanbase) is that the most hardcore fans in any given thing have a tendency to consider themselves the only fans...
Maybe the 4E Realms will suck and won't make any money for WotC... but I think it's very soon to start making vague predictions about the reactions of a supposed fanbased that is, in truth, mostly silent.
Anyway you look at it, I would say that there is a likely chance that the majority of hardcore (or Grognard if you prefer) Realms fans who are online are on Candlekeep or on the WotC forums (the majority of the populations of both, and many users unique to each, which have shown displeasure to the things so far disclosed as to what has happened in the 4e Realms). I know I am generalizing, but I am pretty sure that most of the Realms "Old Guard" who are not online are likely to reflect the feelings of the ones online, partially because they are not online and that is often (but not always, remember that I am generalizing here) because they prefer the pre-digital age ways of doing things. Anyways, if the 4e Realms do not turn our decent (I am past hoping the will turn out "good" or "excellent"), I hope that it does tank and that WotC will drop the franchise completely (instead of making the minimum number of products a year to keep the rights to it) so the rights will return to Ed, and he (possibly with the help of Margaret Weis' company) can fix what they have screwed up. There is, however, the possibility that if I am correct (and most of the older generation of Realms fans drops the 4e Realms because the flavor has changed too much), that there will be enough new fans to keep buying the product that WotC will keep the franchise alive even though it is (actually "could be" at this point, but I am talking about in the future) a completely different campaign setting with some of the same proper names cut and pasted from the "classic" Realms (kinda of like how they are taking proper names from the Greyhawk setting [and the Realms] and using them in the core pseudo-setting). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 16:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
This from the Associated Press, by way of my local paper:
Hasbro posts 24% profit boost in Q4
Yes, despite our complaints, Hasbro's profits went from a meager $1.1 billion dollars to $1.3 billion dollars.
Do they give a flying monkey's little red jacket about what we think of their mangling of the Forgotten Realms. Hells, no! To quote Weber and Rice: "The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
True, but Hasbro sells plenty of other products besides D&D products. I'd hazard a guess that D&D products aren't the companies biggest money-maker to begin with? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 16:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
The problem with this (and it's something that isn't specific to just Forgotten Realms, but more likely it's common to anything with a hardcore fanbase) is that the most hardcore fans in any given thing have a tendency to consider themselves the only fans...
Of course, that knife cuts both ways. The noisy group of people on the internet who would constantly complain about Mystra, the Chosen, et al. can't be said to speak for the "silent majority" of Realms fans out there, either. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 16:55:04
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But who are those "vocal opponents" of the FR? I keep seeing post referring to a supposed "anti-Chosen crowd". Same things with the supposed "Drizzt fan-boys"...
Where are those people?
I've been on the Wizards forum as well as here, and I never saw anything remotely approaching a "group" that could be labeled as such.
I myself have made comments about the impact of the Chosen and other high-level NPCs, but I wouldn't consider myself part of any kind of angry mob...
I think those group are just a thing of the mind... made up by some hardcore fans to direct some ill-reasoned frustration.
I don't want to turn this post into a Drizzt thread, but how many Drizzt fan-boy posts have ever been seen on this forum? Or any other forum for that instance? Why such hate toward a character that served to develop huge parts of the setting (mostly the north-western part, as well as the underdark)?
As for the Chosen matter... I think it was more of a problem for the designers than for the fans. And as such, I think the decision to get rid of them is more of a designer decision, made by designers, for designers, rather than any kind of answer to a cry from some lynch-mob of fans. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 17:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
This from the Associated Press, by way of my local paper:
Hasbro posts 24% profit boost in Q4
Yes, despite our complaints, Hasbro's profits went from a meager $1.1 billion dollars to $1.3 billion dollars.
Do they give a flying monkey's little red jacket about what we think of their mangling of the Forgotten Realms. Hells, no! To quote Weber and Rice: "The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
True, but Hasbro sells plenty of other products besides D&D products. I'd hazard a guess that D&D products aren't the companies biggest money-maker to begin with?
Aren't you the one who always likes to point out their line of lead paint in their pre-school line of products? 
But seriously, to say D&D has ANY impact on those figures is ridiculous - Hasbro DID NOT aquire WotC for D&D, they did it for Pokemon and MtG cards.
We are just an 'after thought', that can be cancelled for 'insufficient returns' at any given time. That means 4e may just very well be the last anyone sees of D&D if it tanks.
In a way, that puts us gamers up against a wall - it's almost a "buy it, or watch it die" ultimatum. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2008 17:01:53 |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 17:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
But who are those "vocal opponents" of the FR? I keep seeing post referring to a supposed "anti-Chosen crowd". Same things with the supposed "Drizzt fan-boys"...
Where are those people?
I've been on the Wizards forum as well as here, and I never saw anything remotely approaching a "group" that could be labeled as such.
I myself have made comments about the impact of the Chosen and other high-level NPCs, but I wouldn't consider myself part of any kind of angry mob...
I think those group are just a thing of the mind... made up by some hardcore fans to direct some ill-reasoned frustration.
I don't want to turn this post into a Drizzt thread, but how many Drizzt fan-boy posts have ever been seen on this forum? Or any other forum for that instance? Why such hate toward a character that served to develop huge parts of the setting (mostly the north-western part, as well as the underdark)?
As for the Chosen matter... I think it was more of a problem for the designers than for the fans. And as such, I think the decision to get rid of them is more of a designer decision, made by designers, for designers, rather than any kind of answer to a cry from some lynch-mob of fans.
You apparently have not been around the Wizards boards the past five years or so. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 17:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
But who are those "vocal opponents" of the FR? I keep seeing post referring to a supposed "anti-Chosen crowd". Same things with the supposed "Drizzt fan-boys"...
Where are those people?
Well, that should not be that hard to discern, should it? Just look at the umpteen re-publications, gold/extra/collectors editions of the Drizzt novels, the comics and what have you. WotC & Hasbro wouldn't have done those if there wasn't a market that buys it. And who might buy this stuff?
As for your previous question ...
quote:
How can you make such a claim? How many people have you heard complain about the "new" Realms?
Where have you been these last few months? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 18:59:14
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My only point is that a few people (even a few hundred) posting comments on an internet board doesn't make a fan-base, nor does it amount to anything remotely ressembling a basis to make extrapolations. There's no scientific basis nor statistical experiment in using a forum as your base population in any kind of poll.
Thus, although I agree that the majority of posters on the Candlekeep forums are pissed off at all the changes made to the FR (and notice I said posters, not users), there's nothing to prove that this opinion is shared by thousands of other fans.
I'd refer people to the Sean K Reynolds posts elsewhere on these boards. I think he did a good demonstration about the validity of the opinions of people on this forum (backed up by sales number, which are at least a non-subjective measurement tool for the success of the FR brand). |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 19:42:39
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quote:
I'd refer people to the Sean K Reynolds posts elsewhere on these boards. I think he did a good demonstration about the validity of the opinions of people on this forum (backed up by sales number, which are at least a non-subjective measurement tool for the success of the FR brand).
Link please |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 22:55:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
My only point is that a few people (even a few hundred) posting comments on an internet board doesn't make a fan-base, nor does it amount to anything remotely ressembling a basis to make extrapolations. There's no scientific basis nor statistical experiment in using a forum as your base population in any kind of poll.
Thus, although I agree that the majority of posters on the Candlekeep forums are pissed off at all the changes made to the FR (and notice I said posters, not users), there's nothing to prove that this opinion is shared by thousands of other fans.
I'd refer people to the Sean K Reynolds posts elsewhere on these boards. I think he did a good demonstration about the validity of the opinions of people on this forum (backed up by sales number, which are at least a non-subjective measurement tool for the success of the FR brand).
I'm one of the "Anti-4E FR" crowd. All my gamer friends I know in Real Life are as well (about 20 in all -- I play in four groups, yet only occasionally in three of them). Yet only *four* of us are used to being "online", so I know 16 FR fans who are against these 4E changes and yet never get the chance to express their views in public.
I disagree with you that any Polls conducted here, EnWorld or the WizBoards would not be indicative of something. You see, you *always* have to rely on a sampling of your customer base for marketing research, since you can never realistically interview your whole customer base, right? I know that whenever you're conducting marketing research, you need to ponder about which type of people to include in your sampling (and some kind of randomness should be involved). However, consider the fact that WoTC is *primarily* interested in those fans who are "online-savvy" (as DI is going to be their primary source of income for D&D) so that makes (or, at least *should* make) our varied opinions actually very important for their research purposes (*especially* if WoTC wants to find out how those FR fans who are also potential DI customers feel about the changes in 4E FR). If they want to find out how gamers (as in "people who play any RPG, not just D&D") in general feel about 4E FR and would they buy 4E products, *then* it's true that they should not use these boards as their only source of information. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 23:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
But who are those "vocal opponents" of the FR? I keep seeing post referring to a supposed "anti-Chosen crowd". Same things with the supposed "Drizzt fan-boys"...
Where are those people?
I've been on the Wizards forum as well as here, and I never saw anything remotely approaching a "group" that could be labeled as such.
Then perhaps you should refrain from making statements about the "hardcore fans" of the Realms and what they are like. What's good for the goose...
And by the way, the character of Drizzt did not lead to the development of "huge parts of the setting". Some areas were developed, yes, but let's not make overstatements. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Feb 2008 23:09:52 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 23:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aren't you the one who always likes to point out their line of lead paint in their pre-school line of products?
Yes. That particular product line really brings out the...whistleblower in me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 23:33:43
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quote:
"The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
of course ... and all for money..!! |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 23:50:53
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| Personally when I sit around game tables.. even MMOs... Drizzt is usually the target of more hate and jokes then anyone else in the Realms.. but maybe I just live in an exceptional part of the world. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 12:55:46
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AHEM!
Good sirs and ladies, let us please conduct ourselves with a bit more decorum. I did not post this scroll so that any flamewars would erupt, I posted it to demonstrate one salient fact: we are largely insignificant in Hasbro's corporate planning.
Now unless someone among us should happen to be a director of the pension fund of the United Autoworkers of America or of the Teamsters union, or happen to be George Soros or Brian Goldner's teenage son, our complaints to Hasbro about unasked for and unwanted changes to the Realms (and the game itself) are largely pointless. They will do as they damned well please, and the best that we can do is vote with our dollars. I am certain that the loss of all income from several thousand long-time D&D players will be noted when they are making their executive decisions. Then, after having a good laugh, they will go back to discussing whether or not they will support Shia LaBeouf's demands for the ten million dollars he will be asking to star in Transformers III: the March of the Ancillaries, and whether or not they can approve doing without Hayden Christensen in Star Wars X: the Invasion of the Happy Meals. Hasbro is making so much money that they were able to recall ONE MILLION "Easy Bake Ovens" last year, and still managed to make an extra one hundred million dollars in profits!
As for Drizzt, as I pointed out (to my own considerable shock) a month or so ago, books featuring him outsell all other Realms fiction combined. Feel free to be a snob and look down your nose at readers of R. A. Salvatore's novels, but be aware that they outnumber you by several hundred thousand to one.
To settle all of this pointless squabbling about what percentage of players will love or hate Edition 4.$$$$$, I have created THE Definitive 4E Poll. (For those of you new to this sort of thing, the phrase itself was the link to the poll -- just click on it.)
That said, let us all please remember to behave ourselves as the scribes and learned scholars which we are.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 14:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo KreenFeel free to be a snob and look down your nose at readers of R. A. Salvatore's novels, but be aware that they outnumber you by several hundred thousand to one.
Yes, but that refers to readers of fantasy literature first and foremost. This is not about readers of literature though. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 14:18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
As for Drizzt, as I pointed out (to my own considerable shock) a month or so ago, books featuring him outsell all other Realms fiction combined. Feel free to be a snob and look down your nose at readers of R. A. Salvatore's novels, but be aware that they outnumber you by several hundred thousand to one.
it's a skewed number. drizzt has been in like 20 books and wotc promoets the hell out of them. plus they do all the other drow stuff which furhter promotes drizzt. and they have replubished all his books multiple times.
if other wotc books got that treatment the nbumbers would be different. or if the drizzt books got the same treatment other wotc books do then they would likely still outsell the others but not nearly as much.
drizzt sells, but the reason he sells so well is bcause wotc keeps shoving him down everyones throat. |
i have no sig. |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 16:07:22
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Are the Drizzt books selling so well because of promotion or is there so much promotion because the books sold well in the first place?
It's like asking what came first: the chicken or the egg.
The truth is, there are plenty of people that love eggs AND chicken.
And no amount of promotion can change a basic fact: they both taste good, which is probably the main reason people eat them.
By saying they "keep shoving it down our throat", I get a feeling you are not the kind of person who whould fall for such a ridiculous trap.
Then why presume that everyone else falls for it, except for you?
Maybe people buy those books because they like the character and the stories told about him. Period. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 17:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
Maybe people buy those books because they like the character and the stories told about him. Period.
I know of at least a couple of people who went and read a few of the books because they wished to write a common man's critical theory of the character (ie fan fiction parody)
And I read them because I needed to get one of my players out of a Drizzt clone rut. I needed to see the nature of the creature I was dealing with. I have since gotten rid of all but four of those books as not containing enough Realms fun and lore for my tastes. But that's only me.
As for 4e: all I can say is that I hope it is not such a profit disaster that the D&D line is discontinued permanently, but I do not agree with the stance WotC and Hasbro have taken. It appears to have alienated those who do not like the changes and cut off those pen and paper gamers who are not internet savvy (I'm sure there are some out there). |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 17:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
Are the Drizzt books selling so well because of promotion or is there so much promotion because the books sold well in the first place?
It's like asking what came first: the chicken or the egg.
The truth is, there are plenty of people that love eggs AND chicken.
And no amount of promotion can change a basic fact: they both taste good, which is probably the main reason people eat them.
By saying they "keep shoving it down our throat", I get a feeling you are not the kind of person who whould fall for such a ridiculous trap.
Then why presume that everyone else falls for it, except for you?
Maybe people buy those books because they like the character and the stories told about him. Period.
i made no presumtion.
the first books did better than anticipated, so they started promtoing the rest of them. you cannot deny that drizzt books get more press from wotc than any others do. if you keep bringing stuff to people's attention, of course they'l; notice them. and the endless reprints also factor in.
most people that buy drizzt bnooks never read anything else FR. if other FR books got the same promotion drizzt books got, they'd be read by more non-FR people.
people like elaine cunningham's books and stories. they're some of the most popular ones in the setting. many FR fans like them more than th drizzt books. but the drizzt books seller better. does that mean that drizzt books are better than hers? no, it means hers don't get the huge promotion from wotc...
it's like super bowl commercials. anything advertised during the super bowl does better than stuff advertised at other times. that doesn't mean it's any better -- just that it's brought to more people's attention.
it's really deceptive to say his stuff outsells everything else when everything else gets one book, one printing, and no advertising, compared to 20 books, heavy advertising, constant reprints, and constant tie-ins.
drizzt would be popular, but not as popular if wotc wasnt doing everthing they can to make him popular. |
i have no sig. |
Edited by - l33td0ggy on 17 Feb 2008 17:28:36 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 23:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
As for Drizzt, as I pointed out (to my own considerable shock) a month or so ago, books featuring him outsell all other Realms fiction combined. Feel free to be a snob and look down your nose at readers of R. A. Salvatore's novels, but be aware that they outnumber you by several hundred thousand to one.
I don't know if you were addressing me (as I mentioned Drizzt), but if you were:
I have nothing against Drizzt fans or the Drizzt novels. In fact, I friggin' read those novels. But just because I'm not a "snob" towards Drizzt doesn't mean I''ll let overstated claims about his importance go unchallenged. I'm sure Drizzt had a lot to do with the development of Icewind Dale, Menzoberranzan, and the area in and around Mithral Hall...and that's about it. That doesn't amount to huge swaths of the map. I know RAS was involved in developing some other areas (like the Bloodstone Lands), but that doesn't mean Drizzt the character had anything to do with that....and that *still* doesn't amount to huge portions of the Realms.
So, in short, I stand by what I said earlier. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Feb 2008 23:01:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 06:10:18
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Personally, I keep reading Drizzt books because I hope he gets killed... but hey, thats just me. 
Now that I know he'll be alive in another hundred years, I no longer feel the need to keep my hopes up, which will save me a lot of money on future dissapointing purchases.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Yes, but that refers to readers of fantasy literature first and foremost. This is not about readers of literature though.
Truth be told, I'd be hard pressed to call 99% of FR novels 'literature'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 12:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
As for Drizzt, as I pointed out (to my own considerable shock) a month or so ago, books featuring him outsell all other Realms fiction combined. Feel free to be a snob and look down your nose at readers of R. A. Salvatore's novels, but be aware that they outnumber you by several hundred thousand to one.
I don't know if you were addressing me (as I mentioned Drizzt), but if you were:
(snip)
I was referencing earlier discussions in which outrage was expressed that he would be on the cover of the new $40-$50 book instead of Elminster or some other iconic character.
To millions of people, the Forgotten Realms are where Drizzt happens to live. To blame Hasbro for using him as a marketing tool is as foolish as blaming them for using Mark Hammil or Hayden Christensen or Shia La Beouf as models for action figures.
Now if they should add the Binxifarian race to the Realms so that they can sell dreadlocked "RARE" figures to the miniatures line, then I would have to say, yes, grab the pitchforls, light the torches, sharpen the stakes and head for Renton. But they oughtn't to be blamed for capitalizing on a figure who has been closely associated with the Realms for a very long time, and was even our "Guide" to thte Underdark in AD&D.
Personally, I'd rather see Quantoul on the cover, but I fear that I am in a very small minority there....
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 17:10:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Yes, but that refers to readers of fantasy literature first and foremost. This is not about readers of literature though.
Truth be told, I'd be hard pressed to call 99% of FR novels 'literature'.
Well, you should start reading more than Drizzt books then 
(Do note that the scimitar-wielder will be round and about for the next 100 years at least! I wonder whether we will get a trilogy "The Spellplague Years" or something, featureing the rise of the Orc Realm on the background of "Magic Failing". Heck, he may even go down and join up in the fracas that will go on down in down-town Menzo, given that the priestesses and mages will face a few hairy years ...)) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 19:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Yes, but that refers to readers of fantasy literature first and foremost. This is not about readers of literature though.
Truth be told, I'd be hard pressed to call 99% of FR novels 'literature'.
Well, you should start reading more than Drizzt books then
Somehow, I suspect he already does. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 02:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I was referencing earlier discussions in which outrage was expressed that he would be on the cover of the new $40-$50 book instead of Elminster or some other iconic character.
To millions of people, the Forgotten Realms are where Drizzt happens to live. To blame Hasbro for using him as a marketing tool is as foolish as blaming them for using Mark Hammil or Hayden Christensen or Shia La Beouf as models for action figures.
Now if they should add the Binxifarian race to the Realms so that they can sell dreadlocked "RARE" figures to the miniatures line, then I would have to say, yes, grab the pitchforls, light the torches, sharpen the stakes and head for Renton. But they oughtn't to be blamed for capitalizing on a figure who has been closely associated with the Realms for a very long time, and was even our "Guide" to thte Underdark in AD&D.
Personally, I'd rather see Quantoul on the cover, but I fear that I am in a very small minority there....
You don't seem to know this (I really can't tell), so just to inform you: the Drizzt cover turned out to be a placeholder. The real cover will feature a shade knight and circling over one of the Shade cities.
I'm not enthused about that, but then again I'm not enthused about 4E FR anyway. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 06:27:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I was referencing earlier discussions in which outrage was expressed that he would be on the cover of the new $40-$50 book instead of Elminster or some other iconic character.
(snip)
You don't seem to know this (I really can't tell), so just to inform you: the Drizzt cover turned out to be a placeholder. The real cover will feature a shade knight and circling over one of the Shade cities.
I'm not enthused about that, but then again I'm not enthused about 4E FR anyway.
You are correct. I did not know that. But I really don't care; the likelihood that I'll buy any Warhammer Chaos ... er ... X'endrik ... ah ... War of Souls ... um ... post-spellplague "Forgotten Realms" book approaches zero. I like the Realms that little Eddie created forty years ago, not this bastardized abomination that Hasbro has spawned.
For what it's worth, I actually liked the six ... or maybe it was nine or ten ... Drizzt novels which I read. As for whether or not they're "literature," I can safely say that they were not written by Cervantes, or Euripides, or Chaucer, or Montaigne, or Shakespeare (or even Kit Marlowe) -- with all of whose works I have some familiarity. They were written by R. A. Salvatorre, and they have, in toto probably sold more copies in the United States than The Divine Comedy. Does that make them literature? No, it makes them best-sellers. As were the hack stories churned out in huge quantities by Charles Dickens, who is best-known today for a half dozen novels and stories which represent less than 10% of his prodigious "literary" output.
But, "What do I know?" 
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Why Hasbro doesn't give a damn about our opinions
