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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 07:29:46
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Jamallo, you raised a good point on something else when you mentioned you weren't gonna buy any post-Spellplague books.
I have been wondering, is there a point to even buy any books now that are continuing the storyline for 3E and before 1385DR? It seems kind of pointless because everything that is going to happen in those books will just get wiped out or forgotten by the events of the Spellplague, especially if we're going to have a century jump that will make at least 90% of the characters we know die off. Say good-bye to most of the Knights of Myth Drannor, Danilo Thann, the Companions of the Hall excluding Drizzt, and countless others.
It appears to make most of the novels (except the Twilight War series which will probably reveal what caused the Spellplague) obselete because nothing else that is going to happen before 1385 is going to be bigger than Mystra's death. Also, there were several storylines I wanted to see in the near future that will never happen now.
For example, one character I was looking forward to read about was Azoun V, as he seems to be a potential character to have a series of novels written for him. Instead, we're going to be jumping ahead 94 years and he's already an old man handing off his throne to the next king. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 12:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
For example, one character I was looking forward to read about was Azoun V, as he seems to be a potential character to have a series of novels written for him. Instead, we're going to be jumping ahead 94 years and he's already an old man handing off his throne to the next king.
I too was looking forward to seeing this child grow up to be king and all, but it is now just one more thing ruined by Has-don'tgiveadamn-bro. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 17:39:24
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And what's funny about the new king of Cormyr, Foril, (as someone on I think the WotC boards pointed out) is that when he is introduced in the recent Dragon article, we are told right off the bat that he isn't as great as either his father (Azoun v) or his great-grandfather (Azoun IV) were. Basically, we are told that Foril's good, but not great.
What a way to be introduced! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Feb 2008 17:39:47 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 18:03:25
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| Wow so we are not only missing out on King Azoun V, but we are missing out on a GREAT King and so much potential story! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 18:07:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Wow so we are not only missing out on King Azoun V, but we are missing out on a GREAT King and so much potential story!
I know. There were so many characters I was hoping to hear more about. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 18:29:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Wow so we are not only missing out on King Azoun V, but we are missing out on a GREAT King and so much potential story!
I know. There were so many characters I was hoping to hear more about.
well, we could list those that will not be around anymore:
Artemis Entreri
Cattie-Bree
Wulfgar
Regis
Danilo Thann
Tzigone (and the Jhordain...forgot his name)
Ruha
most of the Knights of Myth Drannor
there will be a new lord in Shadowdale since Mourngrim is also dead
basically everyone in the Waterdeep novel by Ed and Elaine
Walker (I think)
prolly Bruenor
the crew of Spirit Soaring
the Kendriks
Alusair
Vanghy
and enough others...
damn...there goes a lot of potential...
oh well, not that it matters to me, as they'll be around in my world |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 19:17:11
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If you notice, RAS wrote that story about Artemis and the Shade after he knew about 4th edition.
The story was nothing more then a cheap ploy to keep one of his favorite characters around for 4e.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 19:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
(snip)
Tzigone (and the Jhordain...forgot his name)
(snip)
there will be a new lord in Shadowdale since Mourngrim is also dead
(snip)
Vanghy
The Jordain was named Matteo.
Mourngrym is no longer lord in Shadowdale, as of the recent module of that name.
Vangy will likely still be alive, but he's also likely to remain offscreen. This is per the ending of Elminster's Daughter. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 19:50:54
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Mace, Artemis will still be around. He's a demi shade so he has the longetivity of a shade.
To add to that list, basically any human character we know of. Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 20:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Mace, Artemis will still be around. He's a demi shade so he has the longetivity of a shade.
We don't know that much, though. We know Artemis absorbed some shadowstuff and it affected him, but we don't know the totality of those effects. And of course, it's possible for him to die prematurely, as well.
Same goes for any other character we think will still be around. And as for the ones we think won't be around--WotC could pull a fast one on us and say a character turned undead (or something). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:02:18
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| Also if time portals, stassis or other device will be made available to PCs, it clearly is posible some NPCs will use the same devices. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Also if time portals, stassis or other device will be made available to PCs, it clearly is posible some NPCs will use the same devices.
Great point. No reason why NPCs couldn't have the same advantage (and considering the way the Realms are changing, I use the term "advantage" loosely) as the PCs do. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:34:06
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Once again, we're all heading back into the Realm of speculations. Lol.
But the stasis idea I can see being used, such as for Manshoon and many other archmages. WotC could also make up some story about how the effects of the Spellplague caused some characters to be banished into other planes and then have them come back later on. It's happened before. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:46:41
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| Hey, if the Spellplague doesn't work out, they can alwasy reset everything with another massive RSE!!!!!! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:55:04
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| I wonder if people complained as much as us right now about the Spellplague when they first introduced ToT? Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 22:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I wonder if people complained as much as us right now about the Spellplague when they first introduced ToT? Lol.
I have no idea...at the time ToT came out I was still busy playing (DMing) Traveller and The Dark Eye...and, gods, Marvel Super Heroes, RuneQuest, D&D and maybe a few others but not really AD&D...
The thing is this, ToT didn't change the world so drastically and didn't frak with history and shite... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 00:23:54
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| And of course, when the ToT debuted, I don't believe the internet was around yet (or at least, it certainly wasn't mainstream). We wouldn't know about how many people might have complained about the ToT online, because back then there was no "online". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Feb 2008 00:24:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 00:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Vangy will likely still be alive, but he's also likely to remain offscreen. This is per the ending of Elminster's Daughter.
Perhaps.
We know, as per Elminster's Daughter, that both he and his consort are now in magical stasis awaiting a severe threat to the nation. Though, I wonder whether the Spellplague, and its referenced impact upon the Forest Kingdom, will be enough to perhaps bring the former Royal Magician back into play -- assisting Azoun V during this most dire time. Or, he may return during Cormyr's efforts to resist Netherese dominion, and during its conflict with Netherese-sponsored Sembia in 1439 DR. Both events would, I assume, rank as "severe threats" to the Forest Kingdom.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 02:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Vangy will likely still be alive, but he's also likely to remain offscreen. This is per the ending of Elminster's Daughter.
Perhaps.
We know, as per Elminster's Daughter, that both he and his consort are now in magical stasis awaiting a severe threat to the nation. Though, I wonder whether the Spellplague, and its referenced impact upon the Forest Kingdom, will be enough to perhaps bring the former Royal Magician back into play -- assisting Azoun V during this most dire time. Or, he may return during Cormyr's efforts to resist Netherese dominion, and during its conflict with Netherese-sponsored Sembia in 1439 DR. Both events would, I assume, rank as "severe threats" to the Forest Kingdom.
I'm thinking that there's probably going to be another Cormyr series that's going to threaten the Forest Kingdom once again way in the future... And then there's going to be some new bumbling protagonist (most likely a noble) going to find some old parchment in the vault written by Alaphondar when he was still alive and then spend a book or so unlocking the secret to releasing Vangy and save Cormyr.
Lol. Maybe I should start putting out copyrights before I see this idea used for an upcoming trilogy. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 07:06:35
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Well, I've begun voting with my dollars: I deliberately loaded up my Amazon.com shopping cart and Wish List with 3.$ and earlier (sometimes MUCH earlier!) D&D products, and, as predicted, they started recommending 4.$$$$$$ material, and each time one appeared, I checked the "Not Interested" box. If other people devote a few hours to doing the same, pretty soon their software will know that people buying REAL D&D and Forgotten Realms products do not want to buy anything that stinks of 4.$$$$$$$$$$$, whether rules books, modules, or dungeon tiles.
This was a difficult decision for me, because the first thing I eliminated was written by a novelist whose work I have fulsomely praised in the past. But, dagnabit, anyone who knowingly serves me "New Coke" is just asking for an extremely negative reaction.
By the way, you don't need to actually buy anything in your Amazon shopping cart; in fact, I often put items into it, then go to the shopping cart page and mark them as "save for later," which causes the lowest price for ALL new & used items to appear instead of just the retail list price; each time you return to the page, if an item's price has changed, you'll be notified by a banner across the top of the page; sometimes items go up in price, and sometimes their prices are cut 10 or 20% in one fell swoop. Why spend $35 for a new book when a few minutes of work may reveal that someone is selling a "like new" copy for ten dollars, eh? As for my "wish list," some of the books I put there almost five years ago, but they still have an impact on Amazon's "recommendations" for me.
Refuse to drink "New Coke." Refuse to buy 4.$$$$$$$$$ products.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 12:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And of course, when the ToT debuted, I don't believe the internet was around yet (or at least, it certainly wasn't mainstream). We wouldn't know about how many people might have complained about the ToT online, because back then there was no "online".
Also, the published realms wasn't as old and established then as it is now (didn't have as much history, products, fan base? etc...) so the impact of change to that wasn't as significant. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 15:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And of course, when the ToT debuted, I don't believe the internet was around yet (or at least, it certainly wasn't mainstream). We wouldn't know about how many people might have complained about the ToT online, because back then there was no "online".
Also, the published realms wasn't as old and established then as it is now (didn't have as much history, products, fan base? etc...) so the impact of change to that wasn't as significant.
And even if the Realms had been in print longer, the ToT was really a minor event. Other than some gods getting bumped off and the disappearance of the assassin class, it didn't do much to change Faerūn itself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 15:38:25
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True that Wooly! The very foundation of the realms is being decimated. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Hasbro, if people don't want to play in the realms, don't screw it up for them in hopes that they think "oh, I think I will give the realms a shot now since there are only a few gods now, no Epic NPCs that are too busy to bother with the PCs anyways, and not a hundred OPTIONAL books that I could read for the sake of making it more interesting...it'll be like my own homebrew campaign now, anything I wanna, all the lore is up to me). Give them another setting instead of ruining something great, you ingrates!!! Us your loyal fanbase who have been pouring money into the campaign setting, into your greedy hands instead of the hands of the fine developers (Ed in particular) who deserve more than you (unless any of said are among those who have decided upon this fate)!!
This is total absurdity, stupidity and disloyalty towards the fans. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 20 Feb 2008 15:39:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 18:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And of course, when the ToT debuted, I don't believe the internet was around yet (or at least, it certainly wasn't mainstream). We wouldn't know about how many people might have complained about the ToT online, because back then there was no "online".
Also, the published realms wasn't as old and established then as it is now (didn't have as much history, products, fan base? etc...) so the impact of change to that wasn't as significant.
You're right, that would be another important factor.
And yes, while the ToT ruffled feathers (and would ruffle feathers if it were introduced today), it wasn't nearly as major as the Spellplague. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Feb 2008 18:31:43 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 19:02:46
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Yeah! What she said!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 21 Feb 2008 06:46:03 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 19:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yeah! What he said!
Are you referring to me? I'm a she. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 05:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
This from the Associated Press, by way of my local paper:
Hasbro posts 24% profit boost in Q4
Yes, despite our complaints, Hasbro's profits went from a meager $1.1 billion dollars to $1.3 billion dollars.
Do they give a flying monkey's little red jacket about what we think of their mangling of the Forgotten Realms. Hells, no! To quote Weber and Rice: "The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
True, but Hasbro sells plenty of other products besides D&D products. I'd hazard a guess that D&D products aren't the companies biggest money-maker to begin with?
Aren't you the one who always likes to point out their line of lead paint in their pre-school line of products?
But seriously, to say D&D has ANY impact on those figures is ridiculous - Hasbro DID NOT aquire WotC for D&D, they did it for Pokemon and MtG cards.
We are just an 'after thought', that can be cancelled for 'insufficient returns' at any given time. That means 4e may just very well be the last anyone sees of D&D if it tanks.
In a way, that puts us gamers up against a wall - it's almost a "buy it, or watch it die" ultimatum.
Yup, I'd say Markustay hit the nail on the head there. Hasboro could not only care less about what we think, but to them we hardly even exist. (just a tiny footnote on a report about WoTC earnings) If 4e flops they won't even blink. As long as the Pokemon cards keep making them millions upon millions of dollars they'll be happy with WoTC. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 06:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yeah! What he said!
Are you referring to me? I'm a she.
D'oh!
Pronoun duly corrected, honoured lady.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 07:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yeah! What she said!
Are you referring to me? I'm a she.
D'oh!
Pronoun duly corrected, honoured lady.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 11:25:21
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I think there's a comparison of a kind to be made here between Hasbro and Blizzard. Two large companies making money hand over fist from their intellectual property - Magic/DnD/Pokemon on one hand, and World of Warcraft on the other. And Each with millions of consumers worldwide. Companies like Hasbro and Blizzard will always (not unnaturally) listen to the market. And both things have a tiny minority of players who expect different things from the vast majority.
This means unfortunately, we aren't the market. By we I mean the Candlekeep Community. We're the tiny self-selecting minority. From my experience, the market is the vast majority of DnD players who play in (IMHO) overpowered psuedo-Exalted DnD campaigns and who religiously buy Mongoose output (not that there's anything wrong per se with this - its not just my thing). Candlekeepers are the tiny minority who want something deeper [2] [3]. And alas, Hasbro/WOTC have to think of the vast majority. Just as Blizzard have done with all the changes they've made to Wow to please the legions of Night Elf Hunters called "Legolaz" that make up most of their customer base. In both cases (Hasbro and Blizzard), their aim is to keep taking people's money.
And they will take people's money, as the majority will flock to DnD 4e. The same majority have only read the Salvatore books, not any of the other FR novels [4]. There's an old Dutch story of the boy holding the flood back by putting his finger into the hole in the dam - and I think we have to recognise that we will get swept away, and that Ed and others are simply trying to manage the flow as best they can [5]
What we should do however, is where we disagree with the direction 4e is taking, we should be vocal about it, but at the end of the day, if you're going to buy 4e, your opinions don't matter. As you've already vindicated Hasbro by planning to give them money. Which is what they want.
As it happens, I think the current Realms (1374 DR) have reached a peak even surpassing that just before the end of 2e. The current Realms as is will always be the Realms that will be in my head - and the Realms that will mean the most to me. I will probably pick up some of the 4e stuff, if purely because I value the writers that will produce it, and wish to support them, even if I consider the basis behind the whole thing flawed.
But it will mean that my position on criticising 4e will be compromised as I have given Hasbro money. and I accedpt that. But I will always be a 1374 DR Realmsian at heart. And my players will always be playing in 1374 DR Realms as well.
And just because 4e is out doesn't mean Hasbro will come around to your homes and set fire to all your 3e stuff, meaning you can't play it anymore.
My tuppence anyway,
StarBog.
[1] Heh, first post and I'm already thinking of myself as part of Candlekeep
[2] Don't mistake this as an argument for elitism, by the way. I prefer the Anthony Bourdain approach of looking at things when asked why he didn't make special arrangement for celebrities at his infamous Les Halles resturant in New York. He said (paraphrasing slightly as I don't have the book in front of me): "You've already chosen to spend money and eat here at Les Halles. That makes you our type of people right from the off. Anything else, the number of Mercedes you own for example, is totally irrelevant".
[3] The WoW equivalent to Candlekeep would be the folks at the ElitestJerks forums, I guess.
[4] Yes, I have my cynical hat on today. How did you guess?
[5] Historical inevitability, don't you just love it? |
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Why Hasbro doesn't give a damn about our opinions
