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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2008 : 23:59:54
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Dunno how to start, really.
I'm not angry anymore...not really...seriously!
Disappointed, yea, but angry? Nah, why bother? I won't change a thing at WotC's. I was reading an interview with Jim Shooter (former chief-editor at Marvel) the other day, and that had me wondering:
Is WotC behaving like Marvel was pre-Shooter? Do they actually encourage people to write top-notch work? Or do they just let people write (and publish) whatever is the new fad now? (I was about to use creative diarrhea, but that would do injustice to those designers and authors who do get it right, and there are a whole lot of them out there...out of WotC that is)
If I look at the magic in the Realms stuff published in Dragon digital 'm 'a gazin' I wonder about two things...well more than that, but after wiping the vomit-stains from my keyboard I decided to just wonder about a couple less things as more upsets my stomach...which, by the way, helps regarding my waist-line, something I should thank Wizards for! Actually, as of late, the only thing I can thank Wizards for...
The first thing is consistency...a big-ass issue with people dealing with a shared universe. If building a of wizard b is at spot c in one source, there'd better be a damn good explanation for why building a is replaced by building d owned by wizard e which noch stands at spot c. Confusing for some? Maybe...maybe I should have made the emphasis like this: A BLOODY GOOD/REASONABLE/LOGICAL EXPLANATION for this change.
As Tom Costa said in the positive 4e stuff, I have to agree that having the Bedine in Anauroch living very similar to other arab-influenced cultures is...well...weird. Maybe they get to smoothen that out...but that would create its own way of stirring in the dung-heap.
The problem with fixing (ret-conning?) these things now is kinda strange...as we have lived with these absurdities over a couple of years/decades now and worry about other stuff, so ret-conning that would be like explaining why Leia in Return of the Jedi definitely states that she remembered her real mother while she had about as much bosom-time with her than Luke...according to Revenge of the Sith.
(after much rambling I get to a point)
The point of this is basically that by making the Weave crash and no-one being able to reboot the system everything should fail. I mean come on, when Karsus did his mumbo-jumbo with Mystryl all the enclaves of Netheril and basically everything else went kaplooeeey. When Mystra mk I was cast out of the Heavens, along with every other deity, magic went nuts all over the planet and people still had to deal with dead magic zones and wild magic zones for a couple more years...if it ever stopped.
So now, we are told that Mystra and the Weave aren't necessary for magic to function? Did all those guys in Netheril and during the ToT imagine all the cities smashing down, and even permanent magic items (like them swords and stuff) not working in a dead magic zone? Maybe it was all a bad dream and people have slept far too long and now wake up after the dust has settled?
Sorry, dear designers in chief, but to me it seems as if you've taken your sandbox-powerranger-playing out of the sandbox and do whatever the frak you want...LOGIC BE DAMNED!!! (nah, the climate ain't changed...them tornadoes have always been here...sure not as often, but such is life...) Delusional is more like it.
The main thing about world-building is an internal...for those slow readers (and w(otc)ise designers) I spell it out I N T E R N A L logic of the entire bloody world. Sorry, you guys blew it...hell, you could teach Jenna Jameson a thing or two about blowing it.
Now to the second thing...well, it is more an extension of the first thing, but it sounds better if I say second thing, so there.
Halruaa was blown away...ok...um...why? "Cuz of the S(p)ellplague, dummy!" Ahhh, so Thay and Netheril....errr...Shade and Evermeet and Waterdeep and Myth Drannor are gone as well? "Nah, they were protected." By? "You know, magic." And you are telling me that the last descendants of ancient Netheril...well, next to last...didn't have the same power as say the folks in Myth Drannor? "Nope, they weren't good enough." Who? "The spells, dummy." Oh, ok... what about that big ass shockwave? What's left standing around Halruaa and how are people handling the water-level sinking? "Oh, no eathquakes. And only the Sea of fallen Stars lost water. You know, it's that cool magical thing!" Didn't you just say magic didn't work? And if I remember correctly, Halruaa was also bordering on the Sea of Swords (or whatever), shouldn't the water equal itself out on both sides? "Nope." So what you are saying is the water drained out of the Sea of Fallen Stars INTO the Halruaan...what...Depression and the rest of the ocean didn't experience one slight change? No tsunamis, no earthquakes, no 'What the frak are we gonna drink now that our water-level has gone down a couple hundred feet? And what about our merchant fleet?!' "Nope, but this is going to be so cool!"
Sure, yeah...whatever... do the anatomically impossible!!!
RANT over
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
Edited by - Mace Hammerhand on 11 Feb 2008 12:48:19
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 01:12:53
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| Perhaps some courses in physics, geology and ecology would be seen as beneficial to future new employees of WotC. Oh and sociology too while I'm on the subject. With a fictional place as thought out as the Realms are, I would think that a passing familiarity with such fields would help avoid overusing the explanation "It's magic." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 01:56:47
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| The Spellplague wasn't chaotic, contrary to popular belief. It was both sentient and calcuating--it left alone (mostly) those places in the Realms that were deemed "popular". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 02:02:35
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A lot of things would be nice these days. Just do not expect it soon for most providers, not just WotC. I read one of the final books of the "Witch World" series where tavel time from one set location to another at one point in the book was round trip something like 24 hours and the next time travel was one way 2 days by horse and three days by cariage.
And no the first trip was not by a magical force. The fastest posible travel mode was horse.
We had some strangeness with F&P as well, so do not blame 4th for not making sense, 3rd also had things that made no sense or contridicted itself in a single release. One would hope a leading RPG company in product would be leading ib quality control as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 11:32:19
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I wonder if anyone has considered the fact that all we are getting is a brief overview of 4th ED realms and that the little detailed pieces (environment, trade & deities etc)that every one is shouting about will be explained in later articles or in the main book. If people are naive enough to think that Wizards are going to explain every single little detail in a single Dragon mag article and not explain them later then what is happening now on the froums is the only result possible. As for me I have my hopes up that all will be explained later and I will judge the changes when I have my copy of the main book, also if you remember the articles on Eberron before it came out said very little compared to the main book (for those who don't have Eberron trust me they didn't). So come on chin up you can't judge something before you try it and have ALL the information, guessing and assuming isn't helping anyone. Also as an extra I believe Evermeet was largely unaffected by both of the previous Mystra deaths because it is almost personally protected by Sehaine Moonbow and Corellon Larethian and it isn't to difficult to believe that the same thing happened again and was extended to Myth drannor and whats left of Evereska...
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"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
Edited by - admcewen on 11 Feb 2008 12:20:52 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 12:32:35
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The hope-thingy is gone, for me at least. When the events shown in GHotR caused me to doubt stuff, but hope still, this hope grew dimmer with the opening of "The Orc King", and were shattered by the recent articles.
How could Sehanine and Corellon protect Evermeet when their own godly domains were almost(?) washed away in the aftermath of Mystra's death? As GHotR states, the gods were quite busy protecting their own domains.
Believe me, I tried to see it positive, but being the cynic that I am, it's kinda difficult to keep ones hopes up when all your worries become true.
I have no beef with 4e D&D, some of it sounds very very good, and as fair Rinonalyrna said, even the Realms' changes would have been adequate for a new setting, but not for the Realms, as they are not consistent with logic and the campaign setting's past.
Ed Greenwood advised against those changes, we don't know what his exact words were, but he was against them. Unfortunately, he does not own the rights to the setting, and hence had to accept them, or walk away. He accepted them to, hopefully, do some damage control and try to explain the unexplainable. I'm assuming he's doing so because of his love for the setting and the obligation he feels toward us (the fans). An obligation Wizards does not seem(!) to share. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 12:42:35
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nice post Mace
sums up my feelings on the 'magic' issue and SoFS very well
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 13:08:19
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QUOTE: How could Sehanine and Corellon protect Evermeet when their own godly domains were almost(?) washed away in the aftermath of Mystra's death? As GHotR states, the gods were quite busy protecting their own domains.
The GHOTR says "Only greater deites prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos" Corellon is a greater deity and also the conbined female deities (Angharragdh) and as deites of their power can perform up to 16-20 actions a round I see no reson as to why they cannot protect their realms and extend this protection to what is in comparison tiny realms like Evermeet, likewise Silvanus and Chauntea (keep natural effects under control), Kelemvor, Lathander, Kossuth, Lolth (protecting Drow cities that please her & letting others fall etc), Oghma, Shar (only one that we know of that failed but then her shadow weave was intrinsicly linked with the weave), Sune, Talos (bet he loved it), Tempus and Tyr.
The problem with this is that I am putting forward a logical theory based on little factual information which seems to me is what a lot of other people are doing, I feel that we need to calm down look at what we have and produce theories and not assume anything we THINK is wrong as fact until the finished product is out...I mean come on the next article may answer a lot of these problems the truth is we don't know yet so keep praying that the finished product is not a horrendous as we all assume it will be (the only thing I don't like the look of is the Dragonborn, but that's in general not just for the Realms. |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 14:44:43
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WOTC - YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR US TRUE FANS OF THE REALMS!!!!
ARGH!!!!! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 14:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
WOTC - YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR US TRUE FANS OF THE REALMS!!!!
ARGH!!!!!
Duuuuude chill man chill, Ha Ha Ha I feel like a hippy. I shall be the hippy of calm spreading peace across the boards... |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
Edited by - admcewen on 11 Feb 2008 14:56:10 |
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Mcbane2k5
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 15:03:07
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| What they're going to basically do is shove us true fans of the Realms to the side so that they can try and draw some new fans to the Realms. Drawing new ones is fine and all, but make it have some logic to it, and don't alleniate the current fan base. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 15:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
WOTC - YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR US TRUE FANS OF THE REALMS!!!!
ARGH!!!!!
Duuuuude chill man chill, Ha Ha Ha I feel like a hippy. I shall be the hippy of calm spreading peace across the boards...
You'd have to hand over that joint to do that, mate... and as I no longer do the whacky tobaccy you just have to live with me words  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 15:28:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
WOTC - YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR US TRUE FANS OF THE REALMS!!!!
ARGH!!!!!
Duuuuude chill man chill, Ha Ha Ha I feel like a hippy. I shall be the hippy of calm spreading peace across the boards...
You'd have to hand over that joint to do that, mate... and as I no longer do the whacky tobaccy you just have to live with me words
Damm foiled again...none the less I shall continue to try (strikes heroic pose) |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 00:12:10
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| Well said, Mace... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 10:39:42
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Nice post Mace indeed...
The things sound grim ...I have a question although:
Why Ed GREENWOOD let the rights of Forgotten realms so easily and uncontrollably to Wizards???
Margaret WEiss did not ... She left wizards before the <<catastrophy>> of DRAGONLANCE take place...
HE should have been more long-sighted and careful...
But the point is, what are WE going to do after the publishing of 4edition and the new FR campaign setting???What if we do not like 4edition's changes???
I see that Ed accepted these changes ...and he is working on them...
what about us???? |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
Edited by - BARDOBARBAROS on 12 Feb 2008 10:40:41 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 11:10:37
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...well, with all the seas draining, landmasses (*cough* Thay *cough*) rising and generally everything becoming totally unpredictable and chaotic, let's see the positive things:
At least now we know how Githzerai feel in their home plane of Limbo! 
Seriously: The whole 4eFR remind me of the elemental chaos in that plane... and picturing Mace Hammerhand as a chilling - erm... I mean: meditating Githzerai really helps me dealing with 4e-depressions!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 11:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
Nice post Mace indeed...
The things sound grim ...I have a question although:
Why Ed GREENWOOD let the rights of Forgotten realms so easily and uncontrollably to Wizards???
Margaret WEiss did not ... She left wizards before the <<catastrophy>> of DRAGONLANCE take place...
HE should have been more long-sighted and careful...
But the point is, what are WE going to do after the publishing of 4edition and the new FR campaign setting???What if we do not like 4edition's changes???
I see that Ed accepted these changes ...and he is working on them...
what about us????
Ed sold the Realms to TSR, not WotC. WotC inherited the rights when they bought TSR. And had he not done that, then we wouldn't be discussing it now.
Margaret Weis left the Dragonlance setting not because of changes, but to pursue other things. She was long gone before they decided to tear it up.
Long-sighted and careful? And how do you propose this? I'm really quite curious as to how Ed was supposed to know that 20 years after he sold the setting, it would be in the hands of a different company who would suddenly decide to rip the setting in half.
Accepted the changes? Nay, he fought against them. The only reason he's still on board is because he's trying to salvage the setting, not because he embraces what has been done to it.
If we don't like 4E FR, then don't buy it. WotC will only listen to our wallets, so that's the only way we can communicate with them.
You know, I understand that this whole thing has got people upset. I'm one of the upset fans. I've been a Realms fan for almost 20 years, and I've twice purchased just about all the published material.
But dammit, I really wish people would take the time to at least look at the situation before flying off the handle! I'm getting tired of posts like this one, with mistaken information and incorrect assumptions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 11:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed sold the Realms to TSR, not WotC. WotC inherited the rights when they bought TSR. And had he not done that, then we wouldn't be discussing it now.
Margaret Weis left the Dragonlance setting not because of changes, but to pursue other things. She was long gone before they decided to tear it up.
Sorry for the inconvenience.... thanks for the info...
..And something else ..If Wotc decide to stop publishing the setting of Forgotten Realms then what about the rights of the setting ... They will go back to Ed?? |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
Edited by - BARDOBARBAROS on 12 Feb 2008 12:03:17 |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 13:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
Nice post Mace indeed...
The things sound grim ...I have a question although:
Why Ed GREENWOOD let the rights of Forgotten realms so easily and uncontrollably to Wizards???
Margaret WEiss did not ... She left wizards before the <<catastrophy>> of DRAGONLANCE take place...
HE should have been more long-sighted and careful...
But the point is, what are WE going to do after the publishing of 4edition and the new FR campaign setting???What if we do not like 4edition's changes???
I see that Ed accepted these changes ...and he is working on them...
what about us????
Ed sold the Realms to TSR, not WotC. WotC inherited the rights when they bought TSR. And had he not done that, then we wouldn't be discussing it now.
Margaret Weis left the Dragonlance setting not because of changes, but to pursue other things. She was long gone before they decided to tear it up.
Long-sighted and careful? And how do you propose this? I'm really quite curious as to how Ed was supposed to know that 20 years after he sold the setting, it would be in the hands of a different company who would suddenly decide to rip the setting in half.
Accepted the changes? Nay, he fought against them. The only reason he's still on board is because he's trying to salvage the setting, not because he embraces what has been done to it.
If we don't like 4E FR, then don't buy it. WotC will only listen to our wallets, so that's the only way we can communicate with them.
You know, I understand that this whole thing has got people upset. I'm one of the upset fans. I've been a Realms fan for almost 20 years, and I've twice purchased just about all the published material.
But dammit, I really wish people would take the time to at least look at the situation before flying off the handle! I'm getting tired of posts like this one, with mistaken information and incorrect assumptions.
I'm with you all the way on this |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 16:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
Sorry for the inconvenience.... thanks for the info...
..And something else ..If Wotc decide to stop publishing the setting of Forgotten Realms then what about the rights of the setting ... They will go back to Ed??
From what I understand, yes, but what is likely happen (IMO) if the new version of the setting tanks is that they will still make the minimum number of products per year to keep the rights, and also keep the changes they made with the transition to 4e. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 22:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
I wonder if anyone has considered the fact that all we are getting is a brief overview of 4th ED realms and that the little detailed pieces (environment, trade & deities etc)that every one is shouting about will be explained in later articles or in the main book. If people are naive enough to think that Wizards are going to explain every single little detail in a single Dragon mag article and not explain them later then what is happening now on the froums is the only result possible. As for me I have my hopes up that all will be explained later and I will judge the changes when I have my copy of the main book, also if you remember the articles on Eberron before it came out said very little compared to the main book (for those who don't have Eberron trust me they didn't). So come on chin up you can't judge something before you try it and have ALL the information, guessing and assuming isn't helping anyone. Also as an extra I believe Evermeet was largely unaffected by both of the previous Mystra deaths because it is almost personally protected by Sehaine Moonbow and Corellon Larethian and it isn't to difficult to believe that the same thing happened again and was extended to Myth drannor and whats left of Evereska...
I know enough to make an opinion. I'm NOT willing to give up Mystra, or her Chosen, or Halruaa. I am quite happy with the pre-1385 DR Realms, thank you, and I don't feel that I have to change my Realms just because WotC wants to change this setting. It doesn't matter to me how they explain the changes, if the changes aren't something that I want.
I don't see how the Eberron example is revelant. The Eberron you are talking about was a totally new setting, not a well-established setting about to receive massive changes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Feb 2008 22:25:23 |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 23:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
I wonder if anyone has considered the fact that all we are getting is a brief overview of 4th ED realms and that the little detailed pieces (environment, trade & deities etc)that every one is shouting about will be explained in later articles or in the main book. If people are naive enough to think that Wizards are going to explain every single little detail in a single Dragon mag article and not explain them later then what is happening now on the froums is the only result possible. As for me I have my hopes up that all will be explained later and I will judge the changes when I have my copy of the main book, also if you remember the articles on Eberron before it came out said very little compared to the main book (for those who don't have Eberron trust me they didn't). So come on chin up you can't judge something before you try it and have ALL the information, guessing and assuming isn't helping anyone. Also as an extra I believe Evermeet was largely unaffected by both of the previous Mystra deaths because it is almost personally protected by Sehaine Moonbow and Corellon Larethian and it isn't to difficult to believe that the same thing happened again and was extended to Myth drannor and whats left of Evereska...
I know enough to make an opinion. I'm NOT willing to give up Mystra, or her Chosen, or Halruaa. I am quite happy with the pre-1385 DR Realms, thank you, and I don't feel that I have to change my Realms just because WotC wants to change this setting. It doesn't matter to me how they explain the changes, if the changes aren't something that I want.
I don't see how the Eberron example is revelant. The Eberron you are talking about was a totally new setting, not a well-established setting about to receive massive changes.
Whoaah hostility. I surrender, your point is taken please destress I think you may have missed my point slighty (or a alot) do whatever you wish it really doesn't matter that much!!! |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 23:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't see how the Eberron example is revelant. The Eberron you are talking about was a totally new setting, not a well-established setting about to receive massive changes.
Is that what Realms-2008 is? Or is it a new setting drawing heavily on an old one but with a different design approach and goals? 4E, in comparison, may not be a new game -- in the large sense that includes the culture and overall experience -- but it's a new ruleset, not just a new ('changed') version of an existing one.
The current series of web articles are just a summary of the implementation of design goals which have already been made pretty clear. It's certainly foolish to judge the final implementation based on them. On the other hand, if everything was explained to everyone's satisfaction that would break their own wish to avoid complex detail; neither is it wise to assume everything will make sense in the end, unless your evaluation of the 3E changes (by some of the same people, Baker and Heinsoo) differs widely from mine. |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 23:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't see how the Eberron example is revelant. The Eberron you are talking about was a totally new setting, not a well-established setting about to receive massive changes.
Is that what Realms-2008 is? Or is it a new setting drawing heavily on an old one but with a different design approach and goals? 4E, in comparison, may not be a new game -- in the large sense that includes the culture and overall experience -- but it's a new ruleset, not just a new ('changed') version of an existing one.
The current series of web articles are just a summary of the implementation of design goals which have already been made pretty clear. It's certainly foolish to judge the final implementation based on them. On the other hand, if everything was explained to everyone's satisfaction that would break their own wish to avoid complex detail; neither is it wise to assume everything will make sense in the end, unless your evaluation of the 3E changes (by some of the same people, Baker and Heinsoo) differs widely from mine.
Ehhh, yea what he said....Thanks!!! |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 18:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[I know enough to make an opinion. I'm NOT willing to give up Mystra, or her Chosen, or Halruaa. I am quite happy with the pre-1385 DR Realms, thank you, and I don't feel that I have to change my Realms just because WotC wants to change this setting. It doesn't matter to me how they explain the changes, if the changes aren't something that I want.
I don't see how the Eberron example is revelant. The Eberron you are talking about was a totally new setting, not a well-established setting about to receive massive changes.
That's true Rino. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 23:19:28
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quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
Whoaah hostility. I surrender, your point is taken please destress I think you may have missed my point slighty (or a alot) do whatever you wish it really doesn't matter that much!!!
Meh, that wasn't hostile, you're just upset, I think, at my tone in one of my posts on the WotC boards. Which is understandable--I am sorry for my loss of temper over there.
I don't think I missed your point. I think you were saying that we should wait to see how they explain the changes? If so, that is perfectly fair advice. However, if I don't LIKE the changes to begin with, no amount of explanation is going to change my mind about them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 23:24:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Is that what Realms-2008 is? Or is it a new setting drawing heavily on an old one but with a different design approach and goals?
Good point--many people believe (myself included) that it would be perfectly fitting to just call the "new Realms" setting by a new title, because it's not really the Realms anymore. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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admcewen
Acolyte
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 13:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
Whoaah hostility. I surrender, your point is taken please destress I think you may have missed my point slighty (or a alot) do whatever you wish it really doesn't matter that much!!!
Meh, that wasn't hostile, you're just upset, I think, at my tone in one of my posts on the WotC boards. Which is understandable--I am sorry for my loss of temper over there.
I don't think I missed your point. I think you were saying that we should wait to see how they explain the changes? If so, that is perfectly fair advice. However, if I don't LIKE the changes to begin with, no amount of explanation is going to change my mind about them.
Fair point I agree, um listen are you "Rinonalyrna Fathomlin" on the WOTC boards? If so I'm sorry as well, listen I think we got of on the wrong foot and really I am not trying to persuade anyone one way or the over, I dunno i'm just one of those people has has to try and find something positive in any situation even over the New realms please ignore my last post on WOTC and I hope we can get on in the future... and get back to discussing our fav campagn world (my temper can get pretty bad as well) |
"I am the hippy of calm and I bring you peace"
"Any thing with more than one head is bad" |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 15:08:09
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Dude, there are things that are really difficult to find a bright spot in. This new realms is one of them. If they had made it a new campaign world instead of screwing the Realms over that would have been fine, but they didn't.
So either we move on, ignoring all the BS, or we keep on hoping that things will brighten up. And that hope has been shattered so many times now that I wonder how many pink glasses one is wearing if he still sees the old Realms in this abomination.
If you like all the stuff they did, the happies for you.
To me, the glass is beyond half empty, and your sunny sunshine attitude is more an annoyance than anything else. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 16:55:03
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Mace, so why don't ya let us know what ya really think mate . For what it's worth I agree w/ ya. Seems like they wanted to try to make 4th ed easier (dumbed down IMO) from what I read in the preview books, and all they're really doing is making things more complex, at least for Realmsfolk. I guess we'll see what we'll see, but I ain't holding out any hope for this new "realms" either. But like other have said (Rino) I'm happy with the way things are and don't plan on converting anyway. Once again, my 2 coppers. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 17:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Mace, so why don't ya let us know what ya really think mate. For what it's worth I agree w/ ya. Seems like they wanted to try to make 4th ed easier (dumbed down IMO) from what I read in the preview books, and all they're really doing is making things more complex, at least for Realmsfolk. I guess we'll see what we'll see, but I ain't holding out any hope for this new "realms" either. But like other have said (Rino) I'm happy with the way things are and don't plan on converting anyway. Once again, my 2 coppers.
read my RANTS...if I feel the need to vent some more I'll do so, but what I've ranted about so far pretty much covers it |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hammerhanded and candid. A RANT!!!
