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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2008 : 23:33:57
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I will probably be asking a few questions with this thread over the next few days, but right now the most important question -
In what year is the information in LEoF current? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2008 : 00:05:27
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I think we had a discussion about this before. As I recall, 1374 DR was the 'current' year, as the timeline in the "Realms of the High Forest" chapter references events of that year.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2008 : 19:37:08
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of course the sage is right again
i find myself picking that book up more and more, sometimes just to read the timelines. |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2008 : 22:40:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sirreus
i find myself picking that book up more and more, sometimes just to read the timelines.
Same here. It's a most spiffy book, and there's lots of good information in it. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 05:53:43
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Well... I found some discrepencies with it and the GHotR, so thats why I was asking about what year the info is considered current in.
I'll have to work it into my... project. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Shilo99
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 13:47:44
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Shame about the disrepancies: I really put Lost Empires on a pedestal as the best (3e) vision of FR history.
By the law of canon, the later ref takes precedence, I guess.
I hope that the ONLY discrepancies were caused by the authors of GHotR finding some errors in the timelines from PEoF.
S |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 14:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Shilo99
By the law of canon, the later ref takes precedence, I guess
I don't agree with that 'law'. If the Grand History has errors then they should be noted as such, and not blindly accepted into canon. Having said that, I too would like to know what discrepancies you found Mark. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 06:52:39
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Pardon me for stepping somewhat off-topic here, but I intend to have the surviving members of my players's party go through the FRA 1,2,3 modules, and I was wondering if Markustay had finished updating his map of Tabot?
Let's not forget that there are plenty of "lost empires" in the East, too!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 15:25:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Shilo99
By the law of canon, the later ref takes precedence, I guess
I don't agree with that 'law'. If the Grand History has errors then they should be noted as such, and not blindly accepted into canon. Having said that, I too would like to know what discrepancies you found Mark.
No, no, no, Brian! They're not errors....just mistranslated or miscommunicated bits of lore between our translating of tomes Elminster gives us and/or trying to read his crabbed handwriting (and again, let me lament over ever having introduced the Old Sage to Post-Its). 
Remember Eric's and my rules for FR writing--They aren't errors--just hiccups in continuity that haven't been explained properly. (I.E. No bugs here--just features!) 
That said, I'm curious to as to the timeline snarls/differences myself.
And as a Lost Empires side note, anyone who has read BLACKSTAFF knows that the lore for Kraanfhaor's Door is now incomplete. Within six months of the Feast of the Moon 1374, some High Mages of Rhymanthiin will have opened the Door and by the Feast 1375, they'll have moved all the lore from that library into the Hidden City of Hope. (Granted, this is lightning-fast action by elves and also this is all my opinion. If WotC produces other lore, that's the canon....but if I got to say what happened, here's my two cents.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 21:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And as a Lost Empires side note, anyone who has read BLACKSTAFF knows that the lore for Kraanfhaor's Door is now incomplete. Within six months of the Feast of the Moon 1374, some High Mages of Rhymanthiin will have opened the Door and by the Feast 1375, they'll have moved all the lore from that library into the Hidden City of Hope. (Granted, this is lightning-fast action by elves and also this is all my opinion. If WotC produces other lore, that's the canon....but if I got to say what happened, here's my two cents.
There is in fact more use of Kraanfhaor's Door in the second book of the Lady Penitent trilogy.  But thank you for offering your own musings--they are what I would go with for my Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 22:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And as a Lost Empires side note, anyone who has read BLACKSTAFF knows that the lore for Kraanfhaor's Door is now incomplete. Within six months of the Feast of the Moon 1374, some High Mages of Rhymanthiin will have opened the Door and by the Feast 1375, they'll have moved all the lore from that library into the Hidden City of Hope. (Granted, this is lightning-fast action by elves and also this is all my opinion. If WotC produces other lore, that's the canon....but if I got to say what happened, here's my two cents.
There is in fact more use of Kraanfhaor's Door in the second book of the Lady Penitent trilogy. But thank you for offering your own musings--they are what I would go with for my Realms.
Guess I'll have to go check out that trilogy, which I've not read (nor do I know much about it at all). It's Lisa Smedman's, right? If only my "to-read" pile weren't taller than me (and actually it's now two stacks, as my wife keeps piling up books I need to read as well).....
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 01:27:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Guess I'll have to go check out that trilogy, which I've not read (nor do I know much about it at all). It's Lisa Smedman's, right? If only my "to-read" pile weren't taller than me (and actually it's now two stacks, as my wife keeps piling up books I need to read as well).....
SES
*chuckles* Yes, that's Lisa Smedman's trilogy, regarding the conflict between Lolth and Eilistraee and how it affects their drow followers. Qilue has played a fairly major role in the series so far. The second book (Storm of the Dead) not only features plot-important use of Kraanfhoar's Door and what's behind it, but there is also a short scene that takes place inside the City of Hope--Laeral and Qilue have a conversation in Blackstaff Tower there. But it doesn't really say much about the actual city at all. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 16:21:51
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First off, I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, as the discrepancies are rather minor, and mostly concerning Tan Chin/Abuchar Devyam/Joon Tsao Choo, which we have discussed before, Brian. According to LEoF, Ambuchar/Tan Chin is still 'alive' in 1374 DR, but the GHotR has him dying some 14 years earlier.
However, Mr. Chin is an ancient evil, and has 'come back' several times before, and his unique form of Lichdom (Suel Lich?) allows him even more flexibility 'preservation-wise' then that of normal Liches.
Considering what he is, it is a fairly easy fix - I just need to make sure I have ALL the facts and dates straight before I attempt to do so.
At least he never used Kraanfhaor's Door. 
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
No, no, no, Brian! They're not errors....just mistranslated or miscommunicated bits of lore between our translating of tomes Elminster gives us and/or trying to read his crabbed handwriting (and again, let me lament over ever having introduced the Old Sage to Post-Its).
My take EXACTLY... thats why I preferred the 'Hearsay' method of reporting in 1e/2e FR, to the more matter-of-fact method in 3e. Prsented that way, the 3e FR lore doesn't give you an easy 'out', like the older stuff did. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 16:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My take EXACTLY... thats why I preferred the 'Hearsay' method of reporting in 1e/2e FR, to the more matter-of-fact method in 3e.
I agree. It was more mysterious (as befits the nature of the setting) and more user-friendly. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 00:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, as the discrepancies are rather minor, and mostly concerning Tan Chin/Abuchar Devyam/Joon Tsao Choo, which we have discussed before, Brian. According to LEoF, Ambuchar/Tan Chin is still 'alive' in 1374 DR, but the GHotR has him dying some 14 years earlier.
No feathers ruffled whatsoever. You have clearly done a great deal of research on Kara-Tur, and I would gladly defer to your judgment in such matters. Where exactly did you see the LEoF reference about Tan Chin being alive in 1374? |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 16 Feb 2008 01:00:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 03:56:00
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On page 65 under the Solon entry, it states that Ambuchar is the ruler of Solon, which seems to indicate he is currently so - thats why I asked the date the info in the GHotR was supposed to be current.
Strangely, it also says he pretty much buried the city a decade ago, which would make it 1364 DR... that means even if he died (again) in that eruption (and it does NOT indicate he did), that would still be two years after the GHotR date of 1362 DR when he was destroyed. The GHotR indicates that the eruption took place in 1360, the same year as the Horde invasions, which does make sense... but ONLY if the adventurers in FRA1-FRA3 were successful... which they clearly were not, since Tan Chin lived to terrorize Ra-Khati, Katakoro, and even Solon.
I've already come to the conclusion that he somehow tricked the survivors of the original adventure party into thinking they were successful, by causing the eruption himself (which he made appear much worse then it was). That would mean that reports of his death were greatly exagerated.
So now I must assume that the information in the LEoF was current in 1370 DR, NOT 1374, or the Solon entry's reference to a decade really means "about ten years", and is not an exact timeframe. I would prefer the later, since I don't want to invalidate other entries that folks have placed current in 1374 DR (as per my origianl question and the response I got).
I've already rectified all the older entries concerning him - he's a busy, busy boy - and I just needed a very clear picture of his activities in and around the Katakoro Plateau for the last 15 years.
Now, factor in Bakar, Tsharoon, and the Suren, and I can almost understand the current design team's wish to obliterate old lore... almost. I've given myself several migrain headaches trying to work it all in. It seems even insignificant corners of the Realms have an abundance of lore, if you turn over the right rocks.
BTW, at first your new Shou lore (Anok-Imaskar) gave me nightmares, Brian, but after looking at the big picture it actually makes better sense now then before.
Thanks --- Mark |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 11:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, at first your new Shou lore (Anok-Imaskar) gave me nightmares, Brian, but after looking at the big picture it actually makes better sense now then before.
I took a brief look at Anok-Imaskar lore in GHotR and found a strangely familiar name in c.-2300 DR;
— Great prosperity expands the borders of Anok-Imaskar to cover a vast area, from the Celestial Sea in the North to the Segara Sea in the South. Emperor Kujawa establishes a second capital at Tempat Larang to govern the empire’s southern lands. 
If this is old news, I apologize. I haven't had the time to do more than glance through the book. I wonder what other easter eggs are hidden there!  |
Edited by - tauster on 16 Feb 2008 11:23:27 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 15:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, at first your new Shou lore (Anok-Imaskar) gave me nightmares, Brian, but after looking at the big picture it actually makes better sense now then before.
I took a brief look at Anok-Imaskar lore in GHotR and found a strangely familiar name in c.-2300 DR;
— Great prosperity expands the borders of Anok-Imaskar to cover a vast area, from the Celestial Sea in the North to the Segara Sea in the South. Emperor Kujawa establishes a second capital at Tempat Larang to govern the empire’s southern lands.
If this is old news, I apologize. I haven't had the time to do more than glance through the book. I wonder what other easter eggs are hidden there!
It is old news. :) But no worries. There's also more then one entry that Brian put in there about that. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lost Empires info
