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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 07:54:31
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| I believe THO answered that at one time Ed was offered a position at TSR, but it would have required him to relocate to the United States, and didn't pay as well as a junior librarian in a small library outside of Toronto. Apparently being a game designer doesn't pay very well in general. |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 15:13:16
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| That, or being a librarian does pay very well in general. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 15:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
That, or being a librarian does pay very well in general.
Unfortunately I have not heard of that being a common happening in most countries. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 21:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
That, or being a librarian does pay very well in general.
Unfortunately I have not heard of that being a common happening in most countries.
Being a librarian and being a kid they hire to stock books and video tapes back where they belong 2 different things. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 22:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
That, or being a librarian does pay very well in general.
Unfortunately I have not heard of that being a common happening in most countries.
Being a librarian and being a kid they hire to stock books and video tapes back where they belong 2 different things.
Having a partner who is a librarian I do know the difference. And the salary. |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 23:27:20
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| Lets just say that one of the common complaints regarding salary for librarians is that it does not correspond very well with the level of education required for a librarian degree. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 23:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
That, or being a librarian does pay very well in general.
Unfortunately I have not heard of that being a common happening in most countries.
Being a librarian and being a kid they hire to stock books and video tapes back where they belong 2 different things.
Having a partner who is a librarian I do know the difference. And the salary.
How true. In Finland a librarian (depending, of course, on where you live, your work experience, your title and your responsibilities) makes about 1600-1900 euros per month.
EDIT: The funny things is that the kid who is hired to check and shelve library material earns almost as much. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 19 Jan 2008 23:43:07 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 00:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
That, or being a librarian does pay very well in general.
Unfortunately I have not heard of that being a common happening in most countries.
Being a librarian and being a kid they hire to stock books and video tapes back where they belong 2 different things.
Having a partner who is a librarian I do know the difference. And the salary.
Like it said in Disney's "The Weekenders", One doesn't go through four years of university just to shhh people. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 05:22:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr (snip)Apparently being a game designer doesn't pay very well in general.
From the numbers I have seen it is basically somewhere above the poverty line. I suppose it makes sense as publishing RPGs is more a hobby than an industry. I don't think anyone makes any real money from it. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 07:22:18
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So, let's see.
* Some countries no one ever uses are gone or changed.
* the Gods get an overhaul.
* All new NPCs.
So, nothing really changed?
Big surprise there.
Seriously, the fan naysaying here is kinda weird. What are you complaining about? So, explain to me who is mourning the loss of Haruula so much that they consider this the END OF THE REALMS AS WE KNOW IT. Cause, I'd like to know what strikes you so painfully about the end of the Magician's Empire.
If people say they set their games there, I'd understand. Ditto Unther.
But....everything looks pretty much the same from my end. It's like someone killing Blue Beattle.
Who cares?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 20 Jan 2008 07:24:05 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 10:11:26
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I can of course speak only for myself, so don't take this as a "generalized" answer (even if I sometimes use "we" instead of "I").
Its not only about Halruaa (sp!) getting axed. Its not just the divine tragedy (to sum up the killing of individual deities and mixing together the racial pantheons). Its not just Thay's plateau getting a few more hunnerd feet of elevation. It is no one single individual thing that strikes me (or "us"?) so painfully. And btw: claiming nobody ever used some countries is simply wrong (I'm really trying to stay polite here...). That you have never adventured in Halruaa (I have, several times), Unther or Thay doesn't mean others haven't as well.
Its all of these changes combined that spell the "END OF THE REALMS AS WE KNOW IT". Your choice of words hit the nail on it's head: "as we know it". 99% of all NPC will dissapear, died of old age. The Realms always were the people who lived in there, and who interacted with the PC. All of these guys (at least the ones that came from Ed, Steven, etc - from the designers who really cared about the Realms and could "think Realms") were neatly woven in the fabric of the setting.
Of course they could be replaced by new NPCs, but as we know, the 4E change was mainly done to make it easier for new (sic!) designers to work, to be able to avoid diligent setting research before starting to write. Do you believe these guys can come up with the same kind of perfectly integrated realmslore? Most of us don't.
And for Halruaa, Unther, Thay: While these places are surely not the center stage of the Realms, they still are essential. They are the exotic, far-away places from which now and then fascinating NPCs came. Even more important were the rumors and legends that countless DMs dropped as tavern stories, plot hooks or in the form of magic items and artifacts. And finally, these realms add to the diversity of the setting. Remember: it's ralled "Forgotten Realms" and not "Forgotten Realm".
The spellplague and Mystra's death takes away or changes beyond recognition how magic worked in the Realms - a game world whose main characteristic was being a magic-rich setting. The Weave and the Chosen are cornerstones of the setting. Taking them away, ...well, I hope you get my point.
I have absolutely no problem with people who like the new realms. I guess nobody in candlekeep has. I just note that quite a few of the "yes-sayers" (in the style of your "fan naysaying") are a bit lacking when it comes to tolerating the "old guards" opinions.
I tried to write all this as neutrally as possible, tried to keep my emotions out of the lines. I hope I avoided stuff like your "Who cares?" - which is bound to anger people. |
Edited by - tauster on 20 Jan 2008 10:16:59 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 11:08:17
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That you have never adventured in Halruaa (I have, several times), Unther or Thay doesn't mean others haven't as well.
I have as well. I ran House of Strahd with it adjusted so that it was a noble House of Haruula and with magical elements similiar to Castle Forlorn with the whole thing taking an epic mystical tragedy. As for Unther, I often ran Gilgeam's aftermath as a major point of several fun adventures.
And who doesn't love the Realmspanning adventures of Omen and his crew? But it's important to ASK *WHAT* was so good about them before one complains.
But Thay's not changed in the slightest except it's a mountain kingdom now. What's the difference? What's changed? It's still an evil kingdom of spellcasters.
I tried to write all this as neutrally as possible, tried to keep my emotions out of the lines. I hope I avoided stuff like your "Who cares?" - which is bound to anger people.
Care all you like, I want to know *why*
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 13:56:06
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quote:
Of course they could be replaced by new NPCs, but as we know, the 4E change was mainly done to make it easier for new (sic!) designers to work, to be able to avoid diligent setting research before starting to write. Do you believe these guys can come up with the same kind of perfectly integrated realmslore? Most of us don't.
I've read that argument (changes are being made so that designers don't have to do any research anymore) a lot, and I can't agree with it.
Not singling out tauster or any other poster, but to me, that way of thinking is founded upon some misconception people have about the game designers, particularly the ones responsible for the 4e FR. It also often seems to imply that those designers aren't true Realms fans, or that they don't like the setting but just want to abuse its name for marketting gimmicks.
The designers have stated many times that they love the setting and I don't see why people can't just accept it. All over those boards, you have people stating that they aren't using canon lore in their campaigns. Wether it be the ToT, or any other particular event, whenever someone states that he doesn't use a given event or NPC, he receives an answer like "Well, that's fine, because everyone can do as they please with the setting, as long as they are having fun". Those players who "change" the Realms to suit their needs aren't label as Realms-hater or heretic. Why is it that this logic is applied to game designers?
Does getting away with many (well, most) NPCs change the setting? Yes. Is it automaticaly bad or does it means the setting isn't the same anymore? I have to say no. Many posters states that the Realms, to them, is the people who inhabit it... well, there'll still be people inhabiting the Realms in 4E. Just as in real life, people are born, people die. Things change and evolve, life goes forward. To accept that idea, you must accept the premise that the Realms has a timeline that constantly advances (independantly of this 100 years jump... The setting still went on for almost 20 years between it's first publication and 3.X edition, with multiple changes). That design decision (the forward moving timeline) has been made long ago, and the current designers shouldn't be blamed for it. If the FR were to freeze in time, that, to me, would be the ending of the setting as we know it.
To me, there have only been 2 constants in all the Realms history. Firts: things change and move forward. Second: the heartlands have always been the "main" location of the setting, with an extension toward the Sword Coast. The other regions have been the object of books, novels, etc... but as far as I know, they've always been considered "far away" and "exotic".
Also, about designers being lazy. I invite people to try being in the designer's shoes for a moment. I think it's been stated by Rich Baker, but the comment has been mostly ignored by posters around here. Anyone willing to write an adventure or novel MUST take into account the Chosen and the high-level NPCs. I must agree it's a pain in the ***. Think about it for a moment: you want to write something around Shadowdale: why isn't Elminster or the Knights of Myth Drannor stopping the threat? The mere presence of those NPCs puts restrictions on the game designers and forces them to always think of a way to have those NPCs be "out of town" or "busy" for any kind of adventuring happening in those areas. That is the reason they wanted to get rid of most NPCs (particularly the Chosen). Maybe they're not being creative enough, but I wouldn't think so...
Finally, since this is my first long post about the value of the 4E FR (I guess that's pretty obvious from the tone of that post, but still...), I want to offer my support to the design team for the effort they are putting in the Realms. People who don't like it can choose to ignore the changes and not buy any new product, but I, for one, will get the new FRCG and most of the products that will follow, because I'm interested in seeing what happens in the FR and how things evolve. |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 14:10:34
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| I'm actively hoping 4E Realms will fail spectacularly, lose WotC bucketloads of money, and they'll sell the line to someone else. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 14:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
I've read that argument (changes are being made so that designers don't have to do any research anymore) a lot, and I can't agree with it.
Not singling out tauster or any other poster, but to me, that way of thinking is founded upon some misconception people have about the game designers, particularly the ones responsible for the 4e FR. It also often seems to imply that those designers aren't true Realms fans, or that they don't like the setting but just want to abuse its name for marketting gimmicks.
Yeah, but when you have designers that are unfamiliar with the things they're changing -- and/or who casually retcon them when they find a conflict with post-Sellplague FR, then it's hard to believe that they love the setting, or that they're doing anything other than milking the setting. Case in point is the recent Blood Wars bit, or, even more spectacularly, the Shadow Weave retcon that sticks with one earlier bit of info, and ignores all following info, including that which appeared in a book with that designer's name on it!
quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
The designers have stated many times that they love the setting and I don't see why people can't just accept it. All over those boards, you have people stating that they aren't using canon lore in their campaigns. Wether it be the ToT, or any other particular event, whenever someone states that he doesn't use a given event or NPC, he receives an answer like "Well, that's fine, because everyone can do as they please with the setting, as long as they are having fun". Those players who "change" the Realms to suit their needs aren't label as Realms-hater or heretic. Why is it that this logic is applied to game designers?
Because the current designers are doing something that no designers -- and likely, precious few DMs -- have done before: radically altering the very face of the Realms, making it into something many of us simply can't recognize as the same beast.
quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
Also, about designers being lazy. I invite people to try being in the designer's shoes for a moment. I think it's been stated by Rich Baker, but the comment has been mostly ignored by posters around here. Anyone willing to write an adventure or novel MUST take into account the Chosen and the high-level NPCs. I must agree it's a pain in the ***. Think about it for a moment: you want to write something around Shadowdale: why isn't Elminster or the Knights of Myth Drannor stopping the threat? The mere presence of those NPCs puts restrictions on the game designers and forces them to always think of a way to have those NPCs be "out of town" or "busy" for any kind of adventuring happening in those areas. That is the reason they wanted to get rid of most NPCs (particularly the Chosen). Maybe they're not being creative enough, but I wouldn't think so...
Lazy? Not doing any research, as we are seeing in some comments from the designers themselves, is hardly a show of hard work.
And getting Chosen and high-level NPCs out of the way? Oh gods, please. There are what, a dozen Chosen of Mystra? Even if they were doing nothing more than running around, stamping out fires, how much would they be able to do? And that's only if you use them as the Justice League of the Realms -- which they were not, and were never intended to be.
Besides, do all adventures have to be Realms-shaking, or at the least threaten this kingdom or that city? Hells, no! The Realms got along just fine for many years with only small-scale tales being told, and those kinds of stories don't need high-level people to function. Adventures used to be written like that, but then the designers got into the same rut as comic books: every week, the world has to be threatened again by some new diabolical plot.
There is plenty of room in the Realms of 1375 to keep telling the smaller tales. There are copius white spaces on the maps and in the timelines for designers to play with. They don't have to keep going large to move forward, but for some reason, that's all they seem willing to do: keep telling bigger and bigger stories.
The Sellplague is not necessary by any stretch of the imagination. And most of us don't want it, either. And yet it's being crammed down our throats... Maybe it's just me, but I can't see how we're supposed to be happy about this.
I've said, more than once, that I'm going to give the new Realms a shot. I am trying, so very hard, to hold on to some optimism about it. But just about everything we've heard thus far is very discouraging. I'll readily complain about people not giving it a chance, but I'll join the chorus on saying that what we've seen thus far doesn't look good. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 15:08:11
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Its actually a stated design goal to make the Realms "easier" for new designers to work on, as per comments from Rich Baker and Chris Perkins. They want to be able to use designers that aren't familiar with the Realms on Realms projects, and to be honest, not only is this not secret, but it was a goal back at the beginning of 3rd edition as well.
Now Rich and Chris wouldn't call this lazy, and I'm not going to say that designing RPG products is ever easy, but the argument goes that they want to spend time writing adventures, new rules, and new monsters, not looking to see if it conflicts with past lore or has any kind of connection to it. I personally think setting continuity, in a setting like the Realms, is worth the extra effort, but from a "cost analysis" point of view, its easier to budget time and money for a project when they can plug anyone on the team into any slot.
As per the "What are the JLF doing so the PCs are important" issue, while I greatly appreciate Rich Baker and a lot of the work he has done in the Realms, this seems to have been something that Rich has been focused on very much in the last half of 3rd edition. We had, what, 17 or 18 years of Realms adventures and stories where we weren't constantly trying to figure out where the Chosen were so that they didn't "fix" things.
Its funny, because once you buy into this argument, and start having reasons for them being gone constantly, it gives validity to the argument. Heck, why not worry about why the Simbul didn't investigate the matters in The Crystal Tomb or why Elminster didn't get involved in Sons of Grummsh. Or why the Knight of Myth Drannor (who, at least at last pass, were just high level, not epic level adventurers, so its kind of strange to lump them into this as well) didn't take care of Irae T'sarran in City of the Spider Queen.
I mean, using this logic, shouldn't we be wondering why Alusair doesn't personally visit Sembia, or half the city states of the Western Heartlands, instead of sending diplomats? Shouldn't we have a constant accounting of her time if we run into a dignitary representing Cormyr (and why didn't she or Caladnei take care of the "issue" in the Cormyr adventure?
I hate to keep doing this, because it doesn't seem to do any good, but perhaps eventually it will sink in. According to the 3rd edition FRCS there are SIXTY EIGHT MILLION "civilized" inhabitants of Faerun. That's a lot of people to keep safe for a handful of epic level characters. (It actually reminds me of an old issue of Superman where Destiny showed Superman that the world could handle disasters and hardships without him, and that if people got too dependent on him for "small things" they would start to suffer because he can't stop every bad thing from happening everywhere . . . )
For those that recognize and like the "new" Realms, that is fine, but I think that some of this reasoning should still be of concern to you, because it does show that when a mistaken notion takes hold, it can completely dominate the design focus on a project. |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 17:18:27
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Very interesting posts from Wooly and KnightErrand. States calmly their points of view and offers a chance at reflexion.
I admit the continuity issue has been a problem, and will probably be again in the future. And I also agree that the solution is not to change back history or have large parts of it disappear (USSR tried it anyway, and it didn't work too well...): the solution is simply a good quality insurance department. And it's not like they are producing 30 books a month... If we fans and players can manage to get our hands on all FR products as soon as they're out and learn them by heart and find inconsistencies in a few days after release, it should be possible for WotC to hire at least one person (hopefully a couple) to do the same... before final printing is started.
However, I don't agree that they are radically changing the setting. The main nature of the changes they are making is a result of the time jump for me, not the RSE events they decide happens during that period. We could try to do the exercise: let's forget anything WotC said about the "future", and start with, I don't know... 1375 DR. Jump it 100 years, and let's make prediction and evolve the setting... We'd probably get something as "different" from the current realms as the designers got.
Maybe the solution would have been to get back to smaller-scale adventures (in novels as well as in adventure modules)... I may be overestimating the importance of major NPCs in the setting (this could also be influenced by the fact I haven't actually played for a few months, while I still read lots of novels...)
I do admit having difficulty to truly appreciate the value of the 68 000 000 number of people stated by the FRCS. Maybe because I'm used to seeing maps (particularly city maps) that, to me, aren't realistic considering those numbers, or maybe there's just not enough pictures (litteral, or drawing) of the world in my mind. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 18:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
If we fans and players can manage to get our hands on all FR products as soon as they're out and learn them by heart and find inconsistencies in a few days after release, it should be possible for WotC to hire at least one person (hopefully a couple) to do the same... before final printing is started.
Nope because TSR had a continuity disasters where they released two products at the same time; a novel and a supplement, about the same thing with completely different histories. And then Wizards goes ahead and makes the same mistake with A Thousand Orcs and Silver Marches.
Wizards isn't going to hire a continuity guy, they going to reset the Realms every time the burden becomes too big. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 18:14:04
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| Thankyou Wooly and KnightErrantJR for speaking out and elaborating. I was beginning to feel trollish. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 19:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
We could try to do the exercise: let's forget anything WotC said about the "future", and start with, I don't know... 1375 DR. Jump it 100 years, and let's make prediction and evolve the setting... We'd probably get something as "different" from the current realms as the designers got.
This is the part I'm going to disagree with. Yes, we would certainly come up with nations rising and falling... But we likely wouldn't come up with entire nations literally being wiped off the map, or turning a nation known for intellectual (and not power-hungry), mildly isolationist wizards into a floating mountain filled with mercenary wizards...
One thing Ed always tried to do with the setting was to make everything internally logical. This nation is rich. Why? Good natural resources, abundant trade. Okay, what's being traded? Why are their resources abundant? Why to the trade routes come here? How has the history of the nation affected and been affect by its resources and trade? What's the weather like? What are the people like, and why? And so on... Whatever questions you could think of, Ed had an answer, and it was one that made sense.
Ed built a world. Not a game setting, a world. Everything is interconnected, and everything has history.
Most fans, recognizing these facts, would start from there, and see where logic would carry them. The changes proposed by fans would flow logically from everything that has come before -- not just blurbs in the last year's worth of game products, which have been building up to the Sellplague, but from 20 years worth of game products, containing thousands of years of history.
We would make the Realms of 100 years from now a different beast than it currently is, true. But it would still be very recognizable, because we would be sticking to the principles of the setting.
This... 4E FR stuff does not seem to have followed this logic. What we are seeing appears to be more change for the sake of change, rather than something that makes perfect sense, and seems inevitable when looking back. Fans would propose that Event A would lead to B which would lead to C, D would follow from there, and so on. What we're seeing seems more like Event A leads to F and then to Q, going all the way out to Event ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, without hitting any of the points in between. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jan 2008 19:23:09 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 22:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
So, let's see.
* Some countries no one ever uses are gone or changed.
How very polite, as usual.  I guess you just know for a fact that no one is using, say, Unther, even though I saw a few people say they were.
As for myself, I've explained more than once what bugs me the most about the whole thing, and I don't think it can be written off as a "minor change", either.
I'm not going to keep repeating myself. What are we complaining about? Friggin' read our posts if you want to know so badly. And while you're at it, learn something about the word "tact". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2008 22:21:03 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 22:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
The designers have stated many times that they love the setting and I don't see why people can't just accept it.
I accept it. But it's also a red herring to me. I really don't care how much the designers love the Realms. I'll either like what they do with the setting or I won't.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2008 22:37:11 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 22:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
I may be overestimating the importance of major NPCs in the setting...
With all due respect, I think you are. I think Knight and Wooly addressed the Chosen issue very nicely. And the issue has been addressed countless times before now, as well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 23:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One thing Ed always tried to do with the setting was to make everything internally logical. This nation is rich. Why? Good natural resources, abundant trade. Okay, what's being traded? Why are their resources abundant? Why to the trade routes come here? How has the history of the nation affected and been affect by its resources and trade? What's the weather like? What are the people like, and why? And so on... Whatever questions you could think of, Ed had an answer, and it was one that made sense.
Precisely Wooly. In a Points of Light setting (and I know the designers have said it's not as POL as the 'core' setting) how can there be sufficient trade for rich trade cities to still exist? To mention only one problem. From what I have seen so far, and I may be wrong, internal self-consistency, what Tolkein called 'sub-creation' has been thrown out of the window.
In my opinion the changes to the FR have been made for the convenience of novel writers and game designers, not for the customers. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 23:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
In my opinion the changes to the FR have been made for the convenience of novel writers and game designers, not for the customers.
Yes, and the changes are also being made for the benefit of newcomers to the setting. Well and good, but that's one of the main reasons why I won't accept the changes in my Realms--they aren't being made for my benefit. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2008 23:40:11 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 00:24:31
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quote:
How very polite, as usual. I guess you just know for a fact that no one is using, say, Unther, even though I saw a few people say they were.
If you bothered to read, which sometimes I wonder if you do, you'd notice that I said that I used it on occasion too. However, frankly, it's not enough that people USE it. It's more important that they say WHY they use it and WHAT is important about it.
So far, I haven't received much in the way of answers (not from your posts either). Basically, it's important to define WHY these places are sources of important adventure before we say they MUST stay.
quote:
I'm not going to keep repeating myself. What are we complaining about? Friggin' read our posts if you want to know so badly. And while you're at it, learn something about the word "tact".
*sigh*
This isn't about what I think of individual posters and if you're unwilling to talk about your opinions on a thread devoted to discussing them, then there's really not much point in posting, is there RF?
Honestly, I'm going to take the high road and continue talking rather than be indignant. But, again, since this is happening again....do me a favor and stop taking my comments personally. They're not directed at you as I've stated before.
For me, Unther was the land about the new liberation of slaves in 2E. It was, effectively, something of a place where we saw the newly established state of the Jews post the liberation of Moses from Egypt. It was the place that people where just about anyone could roll in and conquer the newly freed people because they didn't have anything in the way of defenses. I made the major villains to be Tiamat and the Mulhorandi (whose good natured efforts in the region amounted to horror and sadness to the Unther----which allowed me to actually USE the Mulhorandi for the first time in my Forgotten Realms experience).
Ultimately, one thing that's important about this particular transformation to Unther is the fact that it's not really something that can be sustained as a plotline. Would the Unther eventually be conquered completely by the Mulhorandi or would they set up their own Sadria of Tyr style "Freedom-land" like they did in Athas? While your individual games, and mine, could certainly provide answers. In truth, there needed to be an end to this plotline.
As I mentioned with Thay, there's no indication that Thay has been destroyed. It's undergone what amounts to a climate change but there were plenty of those in the Rod of Seven Parts adventures that didn't really change anything. It's too soon to say that Thay has been destroyed and anyone who thinks that the setting will go off without its iconic Red Wizards and their evil schemes is making a serious error in my opinion. The Thay already travel through teleportation and flying monsters anyway, so what's the difference if its a mountain kingdom now?
Regarding Haruula, it's a big loss because the Nobility and Magicians of the Land were a unique culture. They were the opposite coin to Thay and one of the few "good" nations and signs that you could be a Magocracy without being evil. Honestly, had they set the D&D movie in Haruula rather than fictional Izmer then the show really wouldn't have been that different. I mourn the loss of Airships and other super-magical technology that have gone with the location. Nevertheless, it was an "outer kingdom" like Unther and Mulhorandi that most adventurers would never actually visit.
Something was needed to make it more lively and I'm looking forward to seeing what it was. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 01:51:10
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The countdown was offered in part, according to Mr. Baker. to assure current fans the Realms would not be wrecked that much.
Actully we were told the Sword Coast did not get effected that much.
I try to come up with one way some of us appear to react to the news.
You go away for a weekend, perhaps you hear that a little news that a strom effected your home area. Well storms have happened before and Yes there was some damage so you expect some.
When you return from your weekend you travel down North Street you see little damage (Sword Coast), but when you reach the main intersection you see.
The Local market with a pole sticking though its roof (Wayerdeep) but even that is not as bad when you look down East Street many of the Buildings are gone and strangers have already moved in in tents (Orc Kingdom) and a type of people you never trusted before.
You look down South Street and see houses gone of long term residents (Chosen and deities) you do not yet know the fate of all of them but it is imposible to see how all could have hived.
You look down West Street and the way is blocked by a police force (Citidales of Evil) that prevent you from traveling that street at all to reach family/friend that lives in the next town West. Oh perhaps you can sneak about it, but do not get caught.
I know my street analogy does not encompus all of the Countdown listed and some consider damage to Waterdeep minor, but perhaps it will work well enough to xonvey some of the concerns of existing fans.
The changes we know about are viewed as large by many of us, different changes for different users of course matter differently. It might be interesting to see how the "Home Town" is bebult, but it will never look like the "Home Town" of a few days ago. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 01:59:00
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quote:
In my opinion the changes to the FR have been made for the convenience of novel writers and game designers, not for the customers.
I very much doubt they were made with novel writers in mind. Just think about how badly the 100 year time jump screws things up for the writers. R.A. Salvatore? Wulfgar, Cattie-Brie, and Regis are almost certainly dead. Bruenor's likely dead, too. So's Cadderly. Elaine Cunningham? Arilyn Moonblade's probably dead, and so's Danilo Thann. And that's just for starters. Who knows how many other writers have lost characters due to the time jump and other events.
Besides, from what I understand about the situation, it's about keeping the Forgotten Realms game line afloat. My impression is that the Realms have been steadily declining in sales, and they're making these changes in an attempt to keep the Realms going by doing something drastic in the hopes of bringing in new fans. That's my guess, anyway. That's a lot more plausible, though, then taking such a big risk with the entire product line just for the sake of game designers and novel writers (while simultaneously screwing the novel writers). |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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ajfurst
Acolyte
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 02:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
Anyone willing to write an adventure or novel MUST take into account the Chosen and the high-level NPCs. I must agree it's a pain in the ***. Think about it for a moment: you want to write something around Shadowdale: why isn't Elminster or the Knights of Myth Drannor stopping the threat? The mere presence of those NPCs puts restrictions on the game designers and forces them to always think of a way to have those NPCs be "out of town" or "busy" for any kind of adventuring happening in those areas.
Even if that's true, in a world with dozens of countries and hundreds of cities by my reckoning only a high level story/adventure set in just a handful of those places *need* explanations for NPC's not being there (Shadowdale, Aglarond, Undermountain, Waterdeep). Even then the story/adventure could be too low level to concern the 'offending' NPC's. Or happen too quickly for them to take part (they are powerful, not omnipotent diviners). Really that's a major cop out.
IMO the only time a particular story *has* to be set in a spot populated by high level NPC's, rather then the same story in another location minus them, is the author/adventure designer *wants* some level of participation of them in the story/adventure.
That FR needs to come into 4E is fine, even shoehorning in Dragonborn and the like. And major upheavals caused by the spellplague. Alright can live with.
However the spellplague lasted about ten years. The biggie for me is why the 94 year jump? If it occurred in 1385 and ran through to 1395, why not set the new edition then? Or even a couple of years later at 1397 when things have largely settled down? Then you could have all the new stuff they want, but still be able to have some of the younger characters from novels around as experienced adventurers, or if older as retired adventurers that can be talked to by the new NPC's.
Making this one change would have given WoTC their new 'streamlined' setting for attracting new players, whilst not doing such a fine job at alienating current FR fans. I still don't see why they can't at this point change the starting year of new FR to some like 1397 - no source books have been released yet. I can't see a downside for WoTC, only an upside. |
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Dragon Features: Countdown to the Realms
