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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 20:47:46
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quote: Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
That's pretty ambitious even for a mage as powerful as Halaster, and beyond that, if Halaster learned of Cyric and Shar's plan, wouldn't it suffice to say "hey, Mystra, watch out?"
Seeing as how we never got any resolution on Mystra and Halaster's relationship after Elminster in Hell.. for all we know, they weren't on speaking terms again.
quote: Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The "Unfortunate" Official Placement of Late 3.5 Elements: Rich has said that its "unfortunate" that dragonborn (the 3.5 version) were introduced into the Realms due to the confusion this causes with the "new" dragonborn. I agree with his comment, as this does confuse things, but when Dragons of Faerun was being written, did they not have at least an inkling of what they were going to be doing with Faerun in 4th edition? No one on the editorial side could have said "hey, we may not want to officially introduce these guys, because something is coming later on down the line?" Either dragonborn and Tymanther were really a last minute addition to the Realms, or the editors really don't care much about what happened in Faerun before the Spellplague, other than those events that helped to set it up.
Ahh see that one is easier to explain, I can sum it up in a few words.
Evermeet, Cormanthor. Thousand Orcs, Silver Marches.
When it comes to the Realms, the supplement guys, the editors (novel & supplements,) and the novel authors have no idea what eachother are doing. Two out of three of those groups are paid employees who aren't held accountable by anyone for mistakes.
quote: Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The Shadow Weave: The very last 3.5 products in the Realms mention how the Shadow Weave works, which jives with how its been portrayed in almost every novel after the Return of the Archwizards books, and which jives with how Ed Greenwood has explained it. But rather than go with this, we go with the outdated explanation from Magic of Faerun because its easier to go with that as it allows the Shadovar to not be greatly affected and because they may want to use the Shadow Weave as a "power source" in 4th edition.
Maybe but I don't think that's the case, I think it's just a coincidence.
What you're really asking for is research on the part of designers (and new authors.) Didn't you hear? 4E Realms is all about eliminating research.
quote: Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
What bothers me about this is that it definitely makes it feel like the primary directive was not to make a cohesive campaign setting, but to place as much 4th edition material into the setting that they could, and they go back later to try to find explanations for the new elements.
Maybe when Hasbro sells Wizards to someone else, or just sells the D&D property, we'll see someone be put in charge of managing continuity, or better still, enlist a group of fans to read early drafts for continuity mistakes... but in any case, when 4E hits I have a feeling there won't be many Realms fans around to care about 4E continuity since we'll all be playing in the golden age. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act." The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 15 Jan 2008 20:51:00 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 21:10:02
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quote: Originally posted by Faraer This is part of why the clamour for this sort of 'change' is dubious and often disingenuous, like an ADHD child moving on to a new thing before seeing the last one through. Ditto with the majority of unrevealed dungeons, heroes, magics, and so on in a world the incessant and careless timeline drive encourages the less well-read to mistakenly feel is played out.
Indeed. Someone actually stated on the WotC forums (as if it were a fact) that there is absolutely nothing one can creatively do with the current Realms anymore.
I was beside myself with disbelief that someone would actually say that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 21:28:35
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quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Indeed. Someone actually stated on the WotC forums (as if it were a fact) that there is absolutely nothing one can creatively do with the current Realms anymore.
I was beside myself with disbelief that someone would actually say that.
Mother of Bob... Please tell me that was a regular poster, and not a designer who said that! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 21:35:41
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Indeed. Someone actually stated on the WotC forums (as if it were a fact) that there is absolutely nothing one can creatively do with the current Realms anymore.
I was beside myself with disbelief that someone would actually say that.
Mother of Bob... Please tell me that was a regular poster, and not a designer who said that!
Wouldn't be surprised if it was a designer...
Certainly, given the mounting RSEs the last couple of years it's kinda hard finding a RSE for the Year of the Empty Tankard (if such a year exists)... unless it would be about a quest of a barkeep and his best customer to find the mug of destiny... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 21:42:32
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And yet we customers have so little trouble finding adventures of our own to have without breaking the canon... I'm sure there are people that go on their own realms tangents, even on these forums, but I find it difficult to believe they're not compatible with everyone else's. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act." The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 21:50:33
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I'd think so, even if I fiddled with the timeline once or twice... but, hey, it's my world |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 22:34:37
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Indeed. Someone actually stated on the WotC forums (as if it were a fact) that there is absolutely nothing one can creatively do with the current Realms anymore.
I was beside myself with disbelief that someone would actually say that.
Mother of Bob... Please tell me that was a regular poster, and not a designer who said that!
A regular poster. It was still annoying though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 22:52:51
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Rin, you gave us all a scare there for a it. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act." The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 22:55:12
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Sorry. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 22:55:40
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quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna FathomlinA regular poster. It was still annoying though.
Someone who thinks nothing can be done with FR has a sad, sad little imagination… so sad and little I don’t know if they can be helped.
Also, are you certain it was a regular poster and not a designer? They don’t always advertise who they are and what they do.
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye." -Vecna |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 00:20:20
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quote: Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
quote: Originally posted by Faraer...a rejection of one of Ed's bedrock design principles.
And at the same time, WotC pushes the setting to places I have no interesting in following. Further, I am bewildered that anyone would care to follow and am offended at the demands that I do.
You woudn't be referring to the post at WoTC where the OP said that we were effectively killing the Realms by not buying products we woudn't like/agree with are you? He used the logic that like Krynn, FR would die this way. If so, I'd like to share my bewilderment with you. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 01:31:36
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quote: Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim You woudn't be referring to the post at WoTC where the OP said that we were effectively killing the Realms by not buying products we woudn't like/agree with are you?
To that post and that philosophy. |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye." -Vecna |
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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 01:48:01
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its not killing the realms when wotc's already done it. we'll just be burying it. |
i have no sig. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 02:16:02
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We'll be sending a clear message that this Realms is unacceptable. One of the appeals of Realms (over Dragonlance) is that the game worlds isn't stuck in a time sink. What they've done to the Realms is effectively created that same sink.
You've got pre and post spellplague game worlds now and UNLIKE Dragonlance, both time periods aren't officially supported by the new edition anymore.
Now the 4E timeline maybe continue forward every couple of years, but if you've got a huge sector of your fans playing in one time period and another playing in the other, there's going to be a decline in sales. First from the people that refuse to play in the 4E world and then from the people that can't use their game new product because people they play with refuse to play in the 4E world.
To be honest, I don't see a mass entrance of new players into D&D.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act." The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 03:38:59
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They have converted me into a fan of Grayhawk, which is remarkable 'cause before this I had thought the Hawk was so Vanilla as so be dull.
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye." -Vecna |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 08:11:37
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quote: Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Indeed. Someone actually stated on the WotC forums (as if it were a fact) that there is absolutely nothing one can creatively do with the current Realms anymore.
I was beside myself with disbelief that someone would actually say that.
Mother of Bob... Please tell me that was a regular poster, and not a designer who said that!
Wouldn't be surprised if it was a designer...
Certainly, given the mounting RSEs the last couple of years it's kinda hard finding a RSE for the Year of the Empty Tankard (if such a year exists)... unless it would be about a quest of a barkeep and his best customer to find the mug of destiny...
The year of no malt and barley? I can see that leading to Realms shaking events. Furious dwarf-hordes (a small nuisance at the best of times, lethal under these conditions) and burned down taverns all over the Realms. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 08:40:30
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quote: Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
They have converted me into a fan of Grayhawk, which is remarkable 'cause before this I had thought the Hawk was so Vanilla as so be dull.
Check out the stuff that Paizo is doing with Pathfinder, it's very good. We're slowly wearing down their resistance to a novel line and with a little luck, we'll get more player supporting products. ;) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act." The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 13:48:26
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quote: Originally posted by SirUrza
quote: Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
They have converted me into a fan of Grayhawk, which is remarkable 'cause before this I had thought the Hawk was so Vanilla as so be dull.
Check out the stuff that Paizo is doing with Pathfinder, it's very good. We're slowly wearing down their resistance to a novel line and with a little luck, we'll get more player supporting products. ;)
Provided they stick with 3.5 I'll continue to subscribe Pathfinder, otherwise I'm gonna save the cash |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 16:35:59
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quote: Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
Someone who thinks nothing can be done with FR has a sad, sad little imagination… so sad and little I don’t know if they can be helped.
No doubt. That may be mean of me to say, but that person's comment was pretty "mean", too.
quote: Also, are you certain it was a regular poster and not a designer? They don’t always advertise who they are and what they do.
Heh! I'm pretty sure it was just a regular poster like most of us. What's sad is that I *think* that person also claimed to be a Realms fan (not someone observing the setting from the outside). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 16:39:04
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quote: Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim You woudn't be referring to the post at WoTC where the OP said that we were effectively killing the Realms by not buying products we woudn't like/agree with are you? He used the logic that like Krynn, FR would die this way. If so, I'd like to share my bewilderment with you.
The poster you are referring to is not the only one who has ever said something along those lines, though.
To be fair, the poster you are talking about apologized for his initial attitude. I was annoyed at him (her?) like some other people and did indeed rake him over the coals--just a bit--for his opening post. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Jan 2008 16:41:23 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 17:35:49
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The 104 year jump doesn't concern me at all, since my group has stuck with the Realms Golden Age (1987-1996) for all of our gaming needs. We still play 2nd edition (the same as Ed) and have found virtually no use for anything that has come since 1996 or so (obviously there have been a few exceptions). The issue people seem to be avoiding is that RPG's are essentially a money loser today and the only way to be profitable at all is to come up with a new edition every few years (but even that won't work forever). Within the next 10 years, you will see the end of D&D as we know it (it ended for me with 3rd ed, but thats another story) and the only published RPG's left will be small shops like Chaosium, etc. |
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ajfurst
Acolyte
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 00:00:15
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quote: Originally posted by Apex
The issue people seem to be avoiding is that RPG's are essentially a money loser today and the only way to be profitable at all is to come up with a new edition every few years (but even that won't work forever).
Unfortunately likely to be true. Why play D&D when you can blow someone up, steal a car or the like on a playstation without having to think? I'll try to restrain myself from calling it yet another indication of the 'quality' of today's youth.
RPG (non-console/PC's) are never going to capture the market of console players. Obviously they feel they need a bigger market (no problems with that).
However given you see FR books in almost every book shop (and at least here in Australia, seem to be doing as well, if not better, then when they started 20 odd years ago) and FR RPG stuff a lot more rarely, the more obvious one would have been to try and target the FR readers who don't play more strongly.
Just off the top of my head the obvious ones would be having ad's in the back of the novels for not just other novels, but FR RPG products and having more FR adventures that parallel/follow on from FR novels. Maybe I'm way off, but to me that seemed a much more obvious and known (as opposed to the wish and hope D&D/FR 4E seems to be for targetting new players) market for new purchasers of FR RPG gear. And without alienating your established market at the same time. Then again I'm not in marketing, so what would I know? |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 17:08:18
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I succesfully kept myself away from entering all and every 4E discussion, so I'll try(!) to keep this short...
1) I hate the new realms. Honestly: There's not one single aspect I've read about that I like in the new realms. Yep, I know we have only incomplete data up to now and I know that Ed will be involved in 4E. Still, a medium-sized wonder would have to happen for me to like the new realms and a reality-breaking event would have to happen for me to switch to 4E.
Luckily, our group still plays in 2E, and we have more than enough FR gaming books to go on gaming for another dozen lifetimes. WotC can't expect many more gaming €uro's from my side.
2) What I don't get: Apparently, WotC has quite a bunch of people on it's payroll that write stuff for the setting. Sadly, some of them are not able to do proper research beforehand and thus, we got inconsistencies in the past. That's the reason (or ONE reason) for the reboot, as Rich told us.
Why in Oghma's name did WotC not do the single easiest thing to solve this problem, that is hiring Ed fulltime?! They know perfectly well that he is the one person who knows the realms best. They know what a working ethic the man has and that they would get a lot more "words per payed dollar" from him (partly just because he doesn't need so much time for research before starting to type). Instead they hire people that have not enough respect for the setting to do proper research.
Don't get me wrong: Point #2 was just me ranting a bit. I don't want answers and discuss why they did the one and why they didn't do the other. I'd rather use this energy to fill the gaps in "our" old realms instead, see point 3.
3) What we could do here on candlekeep:KnightErrantJR already wrote a wonderful story about the two different timelines. We have enough creative scribes around here to continue that way and create our own realms, one adventure-hook after the other. We all mourned that many interesting plots were not followed, even in 2E times.
Lets start a new thread to gather all the unfinished stories that are worth being expanded into fanfic-adventures! Manshoon'S clone-wars, the Zhentarim's struggle in the Anauroch (pre-Shade), the dwarves reclaiming Tethyamar, Sessrendale, Scardale, Impiltur, the many hooks from the online-article series "Gateways of Peril", a few scarcely-covered mythal-cities, heck, even the folks living on Selune (albeit they call their moon "Leira", even after Cyric's deicide) who are paranoid about an invasion from Toril... There's soooo much left unexplored!
If enough people join, we could cover many of these events in the next years. We don't have to write complete adventures with statblocks and illustrations (though if you like that style, by all means do it). It would be enough to come up with creative ideas, write an adventure outline and a "skeleton adventure" that each individual DM can expand and fit in his own realms.
What do you say? We already have scores of pages filled with 4E-rant. I say it's time to use this energy creatively and do our ouwn thing! After all, making the realms our own is what each edition's DM handbook told us! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 18:30:09
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quote: Originally posted by tauster Why in Oghma's name did WotC not do the single easiest thing to solve this problem, that is hiring Ed fulltime?! They know perfectly well that he is the one person who knows the realms best. They know what a working ethic the man has and that they would get a lot more "words per payed dollar" from him (partly just because he doesn't need so much time for research before starting to type). Instead they hire people that have not enough respect for the setting to do proper research.
Maybe WotC offered Ed Greenwood actual employment (I don't know), but even if that were the case, I'm not sure Ed would actually want that. He seems pretty happy to be a freelancer...although that's just my observation. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 18:33:06
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That might be one of the reasons, yes. ...but as I said: It was just me ranting on about something I never really understood.
Please ignore and continue reading at point 3! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 18:34:35
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quote: Originally posted by tauster
Please ignore and continue reading at point 3!
I read your whole post. I totally appreciate your sentiments. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 18:50:50
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quote: Originally posted by tauster
even the folks living on Selune (albeit they call their moon "Leira", even after Cyric's deicide) who are paranoid about an invasion from Toril...
Actually, I don't think those folks were ever revisited after Leira's death. Things there could be quite different, now.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 19:26:35
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by tauster
even the folks living on Selune (albeit they call their moon "Leira", even after Cyric's deicide) who are paranoid about an invasion from Toril...
Actually, I don't think those folks were ever revisited after Leira's death. Things there could be quite different, now.
I guess thats up to us - and I appreciate it! When 4E had one positive thing for me, than that I "lost the belief" in canon. I always tried to follow what happened in the official realms as close as possible. Not because I was a slavish follower but because it makes future products easier to integrate by reducing the possibility of conflicting things in "my" realms.
Now that I decided that there are no official realms for me anymore, I am free to do whatever I want to do. I will, of course, always try to see the realms from Ed's eyes. But I don't have to be restricted anymore by whatever WotC's newest cool shiny toy of the day is.
That said, I invite all to fill the gaps we are waiting to see filled for so long. Manshoon wars, here we come! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 23:56:27
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by tauster
even the folks living on Selune (albeit they call their moon "Leira", even after Cyric's deicide) who are paranoid about an invasion from Toril...
Actually, I don't think those folks were ever revisited after Leira's death. Things there could be quite different, now.
That may change at some point. I know Brian picked up on my earlier hints about revisiting some of the lore about the situation on the moon when we were discussing this over at WotC.
Maybe we'll see something new in a future "Realmslore" article.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 00:23:18
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quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote: Originally posted by tauster Why in Oghma's name did WotC not do the single easiest thing to solve this problem, that is hiring Ed fulltime?! They know perfectly well that he is the one person who knows the realms best. They know what a working ethic the man has and that they would get a lot more "words per payed dollar" from him (partly just because he doesn't need so much time for research before starting to type). Instead they hire people that have not enough respect for the setting to do proper research.
Maybe WotC offered Ed Greenwood actual employment (I don't know), but even if that were the case, I'm not sure Ed would actually want that. He seems pretty happy to be a freelancer...although that's just my observation.
I would guess they have and Ed has turned it down. They probably offer him enough freelance work between Supplements and novels that he's busy enough anyway. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act." The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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