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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 21:23:53
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WARNING! THIS TOPIC COULD CONTAIN SPOILERS!
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Ok im currently about 1/2 way through Thornhold (book 16 of the Harpers series \ book 4 of the Songs and Swords series) and im absolutely loving it!!! 
....but what I cant understand is why does almost every review ive read is negative and even people here say how bad the novel is! why?! maybe im praising the book a bit prematurely and the second half of the book goes downhill?
Its got so much Realms flavor, I love the elements so far.... duergar, thieves, Waterdeep, Darkhold, Zhentarim, Skullport, paladins.... the descriptions and flow of the story is pretty good, lots of different threads to follow....... so c'mon, why so bad?
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 05:09:03
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I thought that it was a fairly decent read - not awful by any means. Wasn't too wowed by Elaine's choice of name for the dwarf protagonist (Ebenezer .... sheesh. Reminds me when I was talking once to Ed about Impilturian geography and mentioned Guidodale. His response was, "Oh yes, right next to SANDUCCI-town... *roll*" - in other words, not very Realmsian).
The main furore about this novel relates IMO to two things. What Elaine does to paladins (again, I didn't have a problem with this ...) and the fact that the novel really doesn't end up filling in enough holes. I know that Steven Schend had plans (not really set in stone) regarding the Rings of Samular, Khelben's Moonstars, the Zhents of Darkhold and Zhentil Keep, the Arcane Brotherhood, etc. But with him gone, these long term plot threads died with his departure.
Personally, I'd like to see a sequel - but I'm guessing that's unlikely to happen.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 18:57:27
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I don't recall thinking it was that bad (it's been a while since i've read it... and i've read many other novels since i read it...) but then i don't recall thinking ANY of the FR novels 'sucked'... some were worse than others... some needed some major editting (but that's another story)...
Though i do believe it, among many other novels, need a sequel... or some other storyline to run off from it... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 05:24:39
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Well, I've read the book but I honestly have to say that this is definitely not one of the best books I've read and there were more than a few flaws. The book took me awhile to read as I watched my interest fade from the early middle parts towards the end...
SPOILERS AHEAD
Plot
The story had tons of potential, but some things just could have been erased and put into other scenes to make the story a lot better. For example the Ebenezer and the osquips scene was just such a waste of pages, that it just wasn't funny (though it seems like Lady Cunningham intended it for comic relief). The capture of Thornhold was kinda quick and then the ending scene in Thornhold was just ridiculous. It was odd to see how, despite the Zhents being surprised, they couldn't defeat 50 odd dwarves when they easily defeated 200 or so earlier.
Besides, Dag could easily kill Hronulf earlier and somehow or rather, Hronulf doesn't do what Aglorind, a much lesser experienced paladin do. Yes I know Hronulf was wounded but he could have at least put up a fight. It's just unrealistic. Many scenes seemed rushed unnecessarily while others seemed very detailed when they shouldn't have been.
On the plusside though, as I said, the story had tons of potential and it was rather interesting to see a Harper torn between Zhents, paladins and a corrupt one. Too bad the execution wasn't there.
Characters & Development
The characters in this story were very well developed but there were points of unrealistic-ness within them. Ebenezer was one of those character I particularly like, though a little cliche. He seemed to be well balanced and has a mix between rational and the stubborn dwarf attitude. He does provide a little comic relief as well and his growing friendship with Bronwyn is particularly nice to see.
Lady Cunningham puts out Bronwyn's internal conflict nicely at some points of the story and it's nice to see a new representation later in Cara.
And finally, Aglorind, love him or hate him, you might have to say, Elaine did a good job at making him a good half-villain shall I say as well as stick straight to his personality. He got quite annoying later on as he continued to pursue Bronwyn repeatedly but it was nice to see he wasn't really that stubborn.
Originality
The story has alot of originality but it blends in with many Realms average cliches. The story itself as I said had a lot of potential because for once it was rather original. A little bit of cliches were in the story once in awhile but at the end it was an original story nonetheless only brought down by the poor execution of the story.
Writing Style
I liked Elaine's writing through many parts of the story. It kinda upset me that this book didn't excel that well especially towards the later stages of the book. She represented many characters well, particularly Aglorind but just the execution wasn't done really well. Unrealistic-ness and bad execution aside, Elaine's got real talent and I saw it go well once in Dream Spheres. Unfortunately Thornhold wasn't too good IMO.
Setting and Flavor
The setting mostly focuses on Waterdeep and the areas surrounding it and some short cameos of Darkhold. Elaine's writing style did well to describe much of the surroundings in the story except for Gladestone which I had trouble imaging.
X-Factor
There's everything which could make a good story in this novel. Like Rad said, Zhents, Harpers, paladins and such and I will said it again that it had great potential. If people are interested in this stuff, they might wanna get it, but the story is kind off a let down.
Overall
Overall, it's not really that bad a book, though my comments may make it seem that way. It's just they tiny details that weren't executed well and it happened a good many times. The story is good if you can live through all those flaws and it might appeal to others. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 08:34:12
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| The book was good. The only thing that ticked me off were those self-righteous, narrowminded, braindead, uncompromising, naive and generally stupid paladins. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 13:47:20
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| When it comes to one area of discontent, I think it has been mentioned in the past that the decision to discontinue the Harper series played a part in how the book ended. If I recall correctly, Elaine Cunningham did not know going into this novel that the series would be ending. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 17:18:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
When it comes to one area of discontent, I think it has been mentioned in the past that the decision to discontinue the Harper series played a part in how the book ended. If I recall correctly, Elaine Cunningham did not know going into this novel that the series would be ending.
This is correct. She said as much in her thread, when I commented on how the book closed off the series. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 19:47:09
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| Lord knows people'd like to see conclusions to her open endings...YEah, the self-righteous Paladins thing was kinda annoying, not half as annoying as full lack of any character in Dag, no notice why he turns to a God like Cyric, no notice of why Ashemmi decides to go behind Semmemon's back... |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 14:44:22
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quote:
Lord knows people'd like to see conclusions to her open endings...YEah, the self-righteous Paladins thing was kinda annoying, not half as annoying as full lack of any character in Dag, no notice why he turns to a God like Cyric, no notice of why Ashemmi decides to go behind Semmemon's back...
Somehow or rather, I seriously didn't like the Ebenezer and the osquips scene. IMO, the pages spent writing that scene could have been easily used to details things like the aforementioned by Ethriel.
Although it could perhaps been only one or two pages long, it's a lot better than Dag suddenly turning to the Cyricist ALTHOUGH those Zhents killed his family and destroyed his home.
This is not meant to offend Elaine or anything but I seriously thought that the osquip scene caused many flaws which altogether combined to bring down a book with so much potential. Of course there were some other useless scenes but none of which were as long as the osquip scene. Ebenezer's introduction could have been done a different way instead of wasting space. |
Edited by - Paec_djinn on 05 Jun 2005 14:46:45 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 09:08:42
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I liked Elaine's story about her Paladin being destined for a fall here.
I wish I still had that e-mail from the FR list. It talked about her inspiration being taken from the Paladin's handbook (one of the most....well I can't say my feelings but suffice to say I didn't care for it). In that book it said "What would a paladin do? Feed his family or tithe to his church?" (I cannot imagine ANYONE chosen to be a Paladin having this dilemna. Paladins are supposed to be WISE recall?)
Personally, I loved the book though and think that Bronwyn is as good a romantic interest for Danillo as Arilyn moonblade.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ioulaum
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 23:39:39
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| If we gather enough signature for a online petition do you guys think wotc will let Elaine do a sequel for Thornhold? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 00:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
If we gather enough signature for a online petition do you guys think wotc will let Elaine do a sequel for Thornhold?
Nope. Online petitions generally don't get much regard, and WotC hasn't shown much willingness to find out what the fans really want. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ioulaum
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 00:17:02
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| How about a online petition with a threat of a 3 month boycott of all wotc products. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 00:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
How about a online petition with a threat of a 3 month boycott of all wotc products.
Wouldn't work for me, I couldn't go that long without buying something from WOTC be it a novel or a sourcebook. :) Plus, that's not fair to the freelancers who write for the company. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 00:40:01
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| Also a boyc0tt from just candlekeep does not have numbers to even worry wotc, "The boards that should not be names" I believe has a larger membership base (I also believe any call for a boycott there at minimun would result in post deletion, with posible loss of membership). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 00:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
How about a online petition with a threat of a 3 month boycott of all wotc products.
Wouldn't work for me, I couldn't go that long without buying something from WOTC be it a novel or a sourcebook. :) Plus, that's not fair to the freelancers who write for the company.
Besides, saying you'll deny someone money if they don't spend money isn't the most effective of methods. Denying them money would leave them less able to spend the money necessary to produce a novel.
And I'm not liking the idea of damaging a franchise I like just to give it a push in a direction I do like.
Our best bet is to buy the next two Elaine novels in mass quantities (Best of Elaine and the next Songs & Swords books), and to buy more copies of any of her other books that remain in print. Doing that would tell WotC -- in the language they do listen to -- that there is enough demand to warrant them releasing a sequel to that book. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 00:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Also a boyc0tt from just candlekeep does not have numbers to even worry wotc, "The boards that should not be names" I believe has a larger membership base (I also believe any call for a boycott there at minimun would result in post deletion, with posible loss of membership).
Boycotts/petitions are called all the time over there, mostly for game support on such topics as incarnum, incarnum having its own section of the boards, warlock support, epic support and so on. They don't go anywhere. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 01:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
How about a online petition with a threat of a 3 month boycott of all wotc products.
Well...from what I understand, she's supposed to write a short story for Dragon Magazine that's a sequel of sorts to Thornhold, so... |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 02:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Plus, that's not fair to the freelancers who write for the company.
Agreed.
Considering all the effort we've read and seen Ed, Eric, Steven, Elaine and all the other writers and game designers, who frequent Candlekeep, put into FR novels and products... as well as letting us in on their design processes... I don't think I could willfully choose not to temporarily support their works.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 05 Apr 2006 02:10:51 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 02:18:12
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Thanks for the, um...rather bizarre show of support, guys, but petitions and boycotts are scary things. Also, time has passed, the Realms has moved on, and some of the issues that Thornhold set up for continuing treatment are, or soon will be, moot points.
I'll pick up some of the loose threads in the short story for the upcoming anthology (not for Dragon Magazine), and that will be that. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 02:52:12
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I think personally Elain you did a good enough job in setting up Bronwyn and her surrogate daughter's storyline to begin with.
I do hope we find out Arilyn's a bit jealous since I'm sure Danillo will want to help out a lot.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 05:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Thanks for the, um...rather bizarre show of support, guys, but petitions and boycotts are scary things. Also, time has passed, the Realms has moved on, and some of the issues that Thornhold set up for continuing treatment are, or soon will be, moot points.
I'll pick up some of the loose threads in the short story for the upcoming anthology (not for Dragon Magazine), and that will be that.
Um..yeah I mixed some things up. Sorry. I'd say it won't happen again, but...knowing me I'd be telling a lie . At least I got the important part right |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 06:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Now Now Elaine, you know the old saying.
You have nothing to fear from your fans....until they start looking to Misery for ideas.
:-)
That won't happen with me. Maybe it was because I was only 15 when I read the book, but I seriously didn't like it. It's one of the few books I've actually gotten rid of. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 06:40:01
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I have no plans to kidnap Elaine to write Arilyn Moonblade books....and Browyn....
And Danillo....
I mean the COST alone would take a couple of years for the equipment...
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ioulaum
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 18:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
How about a online petition with a threat of a 3 month boycott of all wotc products.
Wouldn't work for me, I couldn't go that long without buying something from WOTC be it a novel or a sourcebook. :) Plus, that's not fair to the freelancers who write for the company.
Besides, saying you'll deny someone money if they don't spend money isn't the most effective of methods. Denying them money would leave them less able to spend the money necessary to produce a novel.
And I'm not liking the idea of damaging a franchise I like just to give it a push in a direction I do like.
Our best bet is to buy the next two Elaine novels in mass quantities (Best of Elaine and the next Songs & Swords books), and to buy more copies of any of her other books that remain in print. Doing that would tell WotC -- in the language they do listen to -- that there is enough demand to warrant them releasing a sequel to that book.
it was just a thought.
But seriously i am kind of miff how wotc is spending all thier resources to lure in new customer. While ignoring their older/current customer base. Not that i don't like the new stuff. But I love to see some novels for old characters like the Danilo, Arilyn, Browyn, the Wyrnspur familiy and etc. I just looking around for some way to reach the desicion makers at wotc to let them know that you can't take your old customers for granted. Which is what they are doing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 18:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
it was just a thought.
But seriously i am kind of miff how wotc is spending all thier resources to lure in new customer. While ignoring their older/current customer base. Not that i don't like the new stuff. But I love to see some novels for old characters like the Danilo, Arilyn, Browyn, the Wyrnspur familiy and etc. I just looking around for some way to reach the desicion makers at wotc to let them know that you can't take your old customers for granted. Which is what they are doing.
Well, we are getting a new short story from Elaine, the Best of Elaine anthology, and a new Songs & Swords book from her... So it's not like they've not noticed how popular she is. I will agree that the older customers seem to be less important, but they've not totally forgotten us.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 19:17:50
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| I don't think that WotC doesn't care about long-time readers. You could look at it another way, and consider the bias toward novelty something done with long-time readers in mind. After all, who wants to read the same old stuff over and over? |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 19:23:41
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| Considering how I'm going to have to buy a new copy of Elfsong soon because the covers are falling off...I do! |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Ioulaum
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 19:27:59
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Same here.
I read a lot of stuff several times over the course of a year.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 01:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I don't think that WotC doesn't care about long-time readers.
I don't see it either... especially since, in addition to Elaine's upcoming new works and compilation... we are also getting Steven's novel on the Blackstaff and now Richard's new trilogy on Thay. Both set to deal with themes and places that have always had a history with the long-time readership.
Don't forget too about Ed's and Elaine's CoS novel as well... another link back to characters and places of old.
quote:
You could look at it another way, and consider the bias toward novelty something done with long-time readers in mind. After all, who wants to read the same old stuff over and over?
A good point... though I still get a kick out of re-reading many of my old favorites.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Thornhold (SPOILERS!)
