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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 10:56:39
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Spoilers ahead, Bewarreeeeeee....
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I was looking over Elminster in Hell and I'm still deciding whether its my favorite of the Elminster books or my least (to clarify, even the least is heads above most works). It's certainly not because of Ed Greenwood's story-crafting. The story is told in a taut and dramatic fashion with Elminster serving as victim and driver of the story's influence. The story also climaxes in a very interesting fashion and leaves one feeling very satisfied with the ending.
What potentially renders it my least is that its not a very enjoyable work to see what is one of my favorite characters so horribly tortured. The fact that Elminster is out of spells and fairly helpless the entire book also strikes me as a grave injustice. While Nergal is certainly awesomely powerful, the very fact that he attacks Elminster at his weakest only strikes me as a further outrage. Instead of being allowed to at least become a prisoner after mighty battle, he's instead attacked in a coward's blow.
(BTW- I being a fan of Ed Greenwood's early writings for Dragon from my CD-Rom was very surprised and happy to see the return of one of his creations for the Nine Hells)
This is certainly not an adventure for an adventure would have been Elminster trying to escape the dimension, instead its about how his mind manages to survive against the physical ravages of the enemy. Being a fan of high level gaming, it wasn't what I was expecting since I'd hoped to see him fighting way through Hell but you don't judge a book by what you EXPECT but what a book presents itself. I personally think Ed certainly chose a better storytelling mode than my own hack'n'slash views.
What I think is the most interesting work about Elminster was the insights that it portrayed into the character's mind. Those who accuse El of being one note simply don't appreciate the character's depths. The fact that so much of Elminster's mind is filled with his many friends speaks volumes of what is necessary to the Archwizard's remaining sanity. Why Elminster remains sane after 900 years is solely because he keeps such close ties with interesting individuals like adventurers. His complete and utter flippancy even in the face of utter pain and death also provides a fascinating insight. Elminster has faced utter and complete tragedy on a grand scale but has been strengthened by it. Sadly, it also was the work that marked my first exposure to Elminster's interactions with Mystra the new goddess and his thoughts on the death of his lover. It's no surprise that Midnight is not Elminster's lover but I find it rather despicable of the goddess to remove valuable magical knowledge from El's mind when he just happens to be more knowledable than her. Clearly, the loss of Mystra is a fantastic one though to the Sage though and he's only filled the emotional vacency by his love by the Simbul.
The love of the Simbul and devotion of Midnight though are the next major portion of this work. Both find their own forms of redemption in Elminster and its nuance is that the Simbul has only found sanity by her eccentric lover while Midnight needs the Sage of Shadowdale to continue functioning as a goddess. He's the only mortal in the world perhaps that is wiser than she that she can also learn from (It makes me wonder what her relationship with Azuth must be like).
I briefly thought that Halastar Blackcloak became a Chosen of Mystra in this work and I am saddened he didn't. It would have been nice to have a Chaotic Evil Chosen of the Goddess of Magic. However, his appearence here and his freedom from Shar was a welcome transformation. Also, his weeping at Mystra's presence is how most mortals SHOULD react to the divine IMHO.
The ending sets up the discovery of the Shadow Weave by the Chosen and I hope Ed does something more with this concept. I never much cared for the Shadow Weave and frankly think that the Night Goddess is a tad overrated. This is the first step in showing that the forces of good in the Realms are hardly toothless after the ravagement that the Shadovar wrecked in the Archwizards trilogy.
Overall, a fabulous book I think and one of my favorite additions to the collection (I also love the defiant image of the cover by Elminster).
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 31 Mar 2006 18:20:42
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 13:15:42
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| You really, really like the word "utter," don't you? |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 16:21:41
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| I liked the novel due to the fact that it was realms and part of the elminster series. However, I had a friend in Korea who wanted to read it and he was confused to say the least. He said the story line was good, but he would just skip through the rambling memories of a certain old mage we all know and love. I had to get him to read a couple of other realms novels, just to be sure he knew what the realms were about. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 23:08:08
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I found the book to be readable, but I wouldn't say one of the greatest realms books. I will give the man one thing though, he knows to pack in realms "feel" (which he should, since he created it). That's one lesson other authors can really take from him. He also has a very good ability to transfer rules into storyline (something else other authors could take from him). He also did research into the Hells (good to see some names from the past that you don't normally hear.... and you know these devils would interact with the realms). At the same time, while I felt for Elminster, it was in a very detached method. This all being said, I read the book like a year ago and I only recall that it ended with him escaping.... so time may have dimmed my memory.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
Phillip |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 23:19:57
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| The first time I read Elminster in Hell, it confused the hell out of me. Then I read it again and I had a better experience reading it. I guess the flashbacks that the Arch Devil had Elminster go through kind of confused me. Then I was like, "All that just to gain the Silver Flame that Mystra gives her Chosen??" It seemed a bit insane to capture El and scour his mind. Hell, the Arch Devil could have captured The Symbul or anyother Chosen of Mystra. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 00:31:07
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Well I'd say Storm or Dove, one of the less dangerous Chosen. However, I don't think Archdevils can leave on their own in any fiction I've read. Elminster just causally popped down into the land.
Also, Silver Fire always seems to be more interesting than it appears by game mechanics.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 03:56:05
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Simply stated: I'm sick of the running "Young, nubile woman hooking up with old/fat/hairy man" that is constant through Ed's novels and often detracts from this stuff...it's not even sensual, it clogs up the novels heavily and before anyone brings up the editors, Ed's own private stuff has pretty much debunked that: His notes on Alustriel for example, how he's always seen her.
And I almost hurled the book down when Ed tried to imply women decide to sell themselves for money. Mirt the Merciless, accustomed to buying prostitutes can ask that question? It's kind of sick. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:00:22
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Well I don't mind women lusting after Elminster, he's Sean Connery after all.
I never will understand Mirt's relationship with his adopted daughter/wife now and am unlikely to ever find it romantic but weirder things happen in the world.
I do admit, the scene with Mirt and the wife of the dead man can be read as creepy rather than a scene of Mirt coming face to face with the reprocussions of his actions as a mercenary. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:02:06
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| A woman here or there may be ok, but El's been doing at least three of the Chosen, Mystra and numerous others....including threesomes with wood elves |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:07:30
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As Ed's says, the morality in FR is different. I find it a tad odd that so many prominent NPCs are extremely promiscuous but I won't necessarily shoot it down. Throughout history plenty of individuals have had large harems. I think its part of Elminsters character that he has a passion for the ladies.
Plus, plenty of the Chosen do seem to have normal relationships. Larael, Dove, the Simbul (though clearly its not exclusive on Els part).
You either enjoy the sensual aspect of Eds works or you don't. You have a valid complaint that some of it is over the top perhaps but I don't think its right to degenerate El into just Ed's Gary Stu. I think he's a far deeper character than that.
I don't like Mirt but I also know the scene was meant to be about something different than sex. As for Return of the Archwizards, threesomes with Wood Elves are the least of my problems with that book. My problems are mostly with my distaste for portraying the birth of children for reasons other than to love them (wielding the Shadow Sword in this case). |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 01 Apr 2006 04:08:22 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:12:23
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It's a bit odd how Ed says this and it's not shown at all. These women are shown as destitute and needing the cash....and notice El has no qualms doing other women on the side? And Larael was 'tamed' by Khelben, she does have a daughter. There's a firm difference between having a penchant for the ladies and clogging your novels up with it.
Could El be a deeper character than said Gary Stu? Maybe. But now? I doubt it. He goes through the motions, rarely shows true depth and any suspense or tension with him is just gone.
Maybe that scene was meant to be more than sex, but the absolutely disgusting comment on that ruined it...and seriously, the level of promiscuity and trends Ed has is just insane. Vangerdahast and Myrmeen Lhal anyone? |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:16:04
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Wow, it's Winterfox in crazy hybrid mode with that Christian ethics thread from the other day(no offense intended, Winterfox, I was just reminded quite heavily by the Gary Stu bit).
Again: The Realms has a different ethical system from the normal Judeo-Christian one proposed in North America. Just because it's automatically wrong here doesn't mean it's wrong in the Realms. They're similar, but not identical. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:18:19
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| My point is, that's telling us one thing and showing us something else. This women made it clear she was selling herself for the cash and these women are not high class courtesans...heck, Making of a Mage, El has run ins with the low class prostitutes who are doing it for the money |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 04:27:25
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While I utterly support Ed's writings, I do have to question why it's always seemingly about religion whenever this sort of thing comes up? It's possible to find the insertion of sex scenes and character's habits to be off putting even if one happens to be an atheist or the like. Clogging through Anita Blake now is merely a matter of being uninterested in the sex scenes than being morally offended.
To get back on topic though, I was surprised by the depicted power levels here. The Simbul is more powerful than El but she never even got close towards Nergal when she arrived. Ditto Halastar Blackcloak. Mystra could destroy the entire plane but couldn't find El either. Also, it took almost all of Mystra's power to blind Asmodeus for a second even though he's a "mere" Archdevil.
Curious stuff.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 06:21:02
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I'm only going to say this once: No more about Ed and his sex scenes, it's been debated repeatedly and most people who continue to debate it don't understand the characters and or they are getting thier own morals confused with FR's, which are different.
Now, this thread is about Elminster in Hell so please return the topic to that novel. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 06:38:11
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| I'm faintly curious what (if anything) the representation of the Shadow Weave that El blew up was (other than a concentration of Shadow Weave power)and whether it had any effect on the Realms at large. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 08:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'm only going to say this once: No more about Ed and his sex scenes, it's been debated repeatedly and most people who continue to debate it don't understand the characters and or they are getting thier own morals confused with FR's, which are different.
Now, this thread is about Elminster in Hell so please return the topic to that novel.
Aren't the sex-related scenes part of El in Hell, though? It's hardly off-topic. All you're saying is "no negative criticism of a sensitive issue zomg stfu," not "don't go off-topic, guys." C'mon, at least be honest.
Regardless of the repeated "FR HAS DIFFERENT MORALS U NO" screeching, I have always wondered about relationships between certain people with their parental figures.
Mod Edit: I've removed the rest of your completely inappropriate remarks Winterfox. If you wish to discuss this further, contact me via PM.
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Edited by - The Sage on 01 Apr 2006 08:42:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 08:41:50
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I warned you.
And for your info, Winterfox, learn what you are talking about before you open your mouth. Elminster has never had intercourse with Storm, and I know this because I discussed it with Ed in 2004 on the mailing list.
Topic locked. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Elminster in Hell discussion
Topic Locked
