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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 00:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Everyone just sort of accepted that Tyr killing off Helm...
Well, maybe not, as Tyr is likely to bow out in favor of Torm, thanks to a persuasive post by Greenknight on the WotC boards, which Rich said he and the design team liked (and giving Torm a promotion apparently fit in well with their plans anyway). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 02:54:58
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Oh, do you mind posting a link to that post?
I would love to see this post that actually was able to convince designers and writers on... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 06:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Man, where's Ao when you need him?
This, indeed, is a question we do not get a conclusive answer yet. But don't ask for logic or care when it comes to things pertaining to 4ed ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 17:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Oh, do you mind posting a link to that post?
I would love to see this post that actually was able to convince designers and writers on...
Here is a link to GreenKnight's argument about the rise of Torm and decline of Tyr. Here is a link to his next post on the subject (in response to Brain complementing him). And here is a link with Rich's response. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 20 Feb 2008 17:48:12 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 18:50:21
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Hawkins, you're dead on, thanks for posting that link. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 22:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hawkins, you're dead on, thanks for posting that link.
No problem milady!  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 05:07:16
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Thanks, Hawkins!
I read through the 3 posts, and I have to say, GreenKnight's my hero. Lol.
He argued his point really well and I am glad to see that we readers and gamers can have an influence in the world we spend our money on. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 13:29:52
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| I guess you just have to say things the right way in the right place at the right time. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 13:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Thanks, Hawkins!
I read through the 3 posts, and I have to say, GreenKnight's my hero. Lol.
He argued his point really well and I am glad to see that we readers and gamers can have an influence in the world we spend our money on.
...even though it is just a minor one. The Realms still look like a geometry project that has been thrown through a shredder |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 15:28:33
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I get what you mean, Mace.
We're winning the battles but losing the war... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 15:50:05
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I can agree a bit with Greenknight's arguments and since my realms differ from canon it's no real skin off my back. However, while he makes a strong case for Tyr leaving the Realms I still cannot condone the story behind it. Unless there's a web of deceit that effected Tyr at the time (please, let's not use Shar, even though she's a perfect candidate) the story, as we know it, is so palatably wrong that it staggers the mind.
Alright, I'm getting a bit carried away and I haven't actually read the published canon. . .
Ok, I went through all the links. Personally, I find the whole debacle sickening. Totally sickening. But I do agree with Greenknight's thoughts on a way forward (though I would personally prefer a retcon of the whole event, because it's just stupid, unless, as I said before, there was something else going on that effected Tyr in a MAJOR way, something outside of Tyr, like another God, a Devil Lord or 5, Demons or whatever, maybe even something from the Far Realm)
And, just so's you guys know, my first two characters were Paladins of Tyr, one of whom I ran for close to a decade, so I've got a lot of love for the big guy. |
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TheLemming
Acolyte
Austria
16 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 10:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
The one thing I'm gonna comment on this topic is this:
I find it strangely amusing that the punishment for killing a deity is much, much less severe than if you go murder a commoner in Waterdeep. Lol.
Look at the recent deaths of deities. Nobody got punished for the murder of Leira. Everyone just sort of accepted that Tyr killing off Helm, even though it is total "bullocks" as Mace Hammerhand said. And then there's Cyric getting house arrest for killing Mystra.
Man, where's Ao when you need him?
Well I don't share your opinion here.
You seem to take it for granted, that Ao is a lawful deity -
the "Overlord" of Gods - what makes you think that?
I know the whole concept is quite weird and hard to understand - but I'll still give it a try:
a) he is lawful, his laws have to be followed to the letter at least.
b) he is chaotic, laws are just tools for him to inspire chaos and enjoy the workarounds of the gods
c) he is neutral, laws tend to be rather uninteresting to him but the mere action of the gods count
ye, I know it's not 100% appropriate, but I doubt that Ao should be categorized as a lawful Overdeity. No matter how one interprets his actions during the Time of Troubles I really have my doubts that he is all - law. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:18:08
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TheLemming, I'm not thinking in terms of the justice and law concepts we use today but in terms of the "Balance" that Ao has always strived to maintain.
With the murder of Mystra, the evil gods have won a major victory for their side. Mystra was probably one of the few deities that had the power and lack of a better term, "balls", to keep Cyric, Shar and other evils in check. You take her out, and the equilibrium is gone with things leaning heavily towards the evil side.
As for Tyr killing Helm, he's doing something that is against his portfolio because the murder of Helm was not a just act. Then there's the fact that the whole House of Triad is splintered over this and this becomes merely another advantage for the evil gods.
I don't want Ao to be a lawful and just god, we have Tyr for that. If Ao was lawful, all the evil gods would've died out. He should be there to maintain the balance and not let something like the Spellplague happen. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:36:15
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| It should be noted that AO would not allow Mystra to refuse magic to evil creaturers or deities. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't want Ao to be a lawful and just god, we have Tyr for that. If Ao was lawful, all the evil gods would've died out. He should be there to maintain the balance and not let something like the Spellplague happen.
And how does the Spellplague destroy the "balance"?
How does the death of Mystra destroy the "balance"?
In your opinion Mystra was the only one who would stand up to them but that doesn't make it true.
As much as I view the Spellplague to be a hamfisted plot device it doesn't have to destroy any balance, especially a balance that we aren't aware of (ie. what is AO balancing? the good vs bad of the realms? the law vs chaos of the realms? outside influence vs organic influence? we don't have an answer to what AO is balancing so we can't say when or if that balance is threatened) |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 20:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't want Ao to be a lawful and just god, we have Tyr for that. If Ao was lawful, all the evil gods would've died out. He should be there to maintain the balance and not let something like the Spellplague happen.
And how does the Spellplague destroy the "balance"?
How does the death of Mystra destroy the "balance"?
In your opinion Mystra was the only one who would stand up to them but that doesn't make it true.
As much as I view the Spellplague to be a hamfisted plot device it doesn't have to destroy any balance, especially a balance that we aren't aware of (ie. what is AO balancing? the good vs bad of the realms? the law vs chaos of the realms? outside influence vs organic influence? we don't have an answer to what AO is balancing so we can't say when or if that balance is threatened)
ShadezofDis, I already answered those 2 questions in my last post...
Even though it's not Mystra's duty as Goddess of Magic, she does leans towards acting for good. This is why she got into trouble and was imprisoned in Crucible: The Trials of Cyric.
I'm not saying Mystra is the ONLY deity who stands up to evil. Lathander, Torm, Tyr, etc all do their parts in combating evil. However, Mystra is the most prominent and "effective" in comparison because she sends out her Chosens to meddle in the affairs around the Realms. This also makes her a bigger target compared to other deities.
The Balance I was talking about is something that is emphasized a lot, especially among the gods. When Ao made Cyric a god and gave him the portfolios of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, he also chose Midnight as the Goddess of Magic because Ao knew that she hated Cyric and gave her powers to keep the Prince of Lies in check. This is the balance I am talking about.
What do you think the last two novels in the Avatar series talked about? It showed us a side of the deities and their respective duties. Remember all the troubles Kelemvor and Mystra caused because they were favouring good alignment characters? Kelemvor let the good faithless have a happy afterlife while he punished the bad ones and made them suffer in his Realm. Mystra decided to grant more powers to good characters and weakened the arcane magic of the followers of Shar and Cyric.
However, instead of doing good, this made Faerun worsen because the good people were not afraid of dying since they knew that Kelemvor would treat them well and the evil people were still stuck around Faerun, afraid of dying so there were more evil people than good people. This is what I meant by the disruption in Balance. This is only one example with good vs. evil. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 20:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Even though it's not Mystra's duty as Goddess of Magic, she does leans towards acting for good. This is why she got into trouble and was imprisoned in Crucible: The Trials of Cyric.
You cannot at all generalize Mystra's nature from that one poorly conceived novel plot.quote:
However, Mystra is the most prominent and "effective" in comparison because she sends out her Chosens to meddle in the affairs around the Realms.
She doesn't direct them to act in 'good' interests. |
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TheLemming
Acolyte
Austria
16 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 20:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
TheLemming, I'm not thinking in terms of the justice and law concepts we use today but in terms of the "Balance" that Ao has always strived to maintain.
With the murder of Mystra, the evil gods have won a major victory for their side. Mystra was probably one of the few deities that had the power and lack of a better term, "balls", to keep Cyric, Shar and other evils in check. You take her out, and the equilibrium is gone with things leaning heavily towards the evil side.
As for Tyr killing Helm, he's doing something that is against his portfolio because the murder of Helm was not a just act. Then there's the fact that the whole House of Triad is splintered over this and this becomes merely another advantage for the evil gods.
I don't want Ao to be a lawful and just god, we have Tyr for that. If Ao was lawful, all the evil gods would've died out. He should be there to maintain the balance and not let something like the Spellplague happen.
DDH_101, I've to admit before my answer - I full agree with Mace's rant - I don't like a lot of the changes - but my mood has shifted in the last days and I'll try to stay at least somehow positive of what will happen.
Especially Mystra's death will not change the balance -
let me explain:
In my eyes a god(dess) of magic with an alignment to law/chaos/good or evil is just wrong. The Dragonlance approach looks quite ok to me but isn't the "real thing" either.
Midnight / Mystra / Mystryl holds power over magic, therefore before shar's shadowweave was unrivaled in power - for it could deny or grant various powers to mortals no matter which god they followed.
Shar's shadow weave was in my eyes an approach to fix this a bit and give "evil" magic users a quite atmospheric, darker approach (safe for the fashion "shadow" word of course *smile*.
Now it seems to me they destroy the magic portfolio as a whole and I think it's good. So far Shar had the same portfolio (did i read the "rule" no two greater gods share a portfolio?) - I think it's a good change in this. (But Mystra is a different thread)
May I quote you on another one?
quote:
I'm not saying Mystra is the ONLY deity who stands up to evil. Lathander, Torm, Tyr, etc all do their parts in combating evil. However, Mystra is the most prominent and "effective" in comparison because she sends out her Chosens to meddle in the affairs around the Realms. This also makes her a bigger target compared to other deities.
In my eyes this isn't true. Mystra is the goddess that is featured in most novels. (Because people love magic)
Chosen of other gods do very much the same - they just aren't Ed's children (if I may put it that way).
The problem you mention here, (imho), is that many novels and plotlines show different sides of the same people / gods ... and we all (Candlekeep inhabitants) tend to build our personal realms around the various books and source materials we did read.
Still I doubt that 4e realms will have a lot of flavour / flair / atmosphere left, but I surely do hope - no matter what happened to Tyr, Torm, Helm, Mystra, Shar, and all the others that they'll change. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 16:17:02
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
ShadezofDis, I already answered those 2 questions in my last post...
Even though it's not Mystra's duty as Goddess of Magic, she does leans towards acting for good. This is why she got into trouble and was imprisoned in Crucible: The Trials of Cyric.
Faraer said it but I'll expand upon it. The novel was hamfisted, in other words, it hit you with a mallet when you could have been gently pushed. Mystra certainly STARTED as a do-gooder. No doubt about it.
However, once the events in Crucible are over we see a much more matured Mystra who doesn't upset the balance of Good vs Evil in the Realms. In other words, no, Mystra's death does not upset the balance of Good vs Evil in the Realms.
Second, we don't even know if that's the balance AO refers to at the end of the Avatar trilogy. We absolutely don't. We know that some sort of balance is maintained but that could very well have been the balance of godly power in the Realms (a few gods die, a few gods get raised) and it could be that right now the Realms don't need all that "god power" and it's a-ok for some of them to die, maybe even desirable.
Now, I don't think it's likely that AO was talking about the amount of power concentrated in deific form in FR but it isn't much less likely than AO caring a whole lot about good and evil. In other words, we don't know so don't state things that aren't fact as fact.
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101I'm not saying Mystra is the ONLY deity who stands up to evil. Lathander, Torm, Tyr, etc all do their parts in combating evil. However, Mystra is the most prominent and "effective" in comparison because she sends out her Chosens to meddle in the affairs around the Realms. This also makes her a bigger target compared to other deities.
Like Faerar said, she doesn't direct them 99% of the time and when she does it is mostly for the advancement of magic. Further, while the Chosen often work on the side of "good" it's a very relative good. It's not very good for Devils or Demons, not very good for Malaugrym, not very good for beholders, the followers of dark gods, the phaerimm, ect ect ect. They're only agents of good when looking at it from a PC centered view.
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
The Balance I was talking about is something that is emphasized a lot, especially among the gods. When Ao made Cyric a god and gave him the portfolios of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, he also chose Midnight as the Goddess of Magic because Ao knew that she hated Cyric and gave her powers to keep the Prince of Lies in check. This is the balance I am talking about.
We hear a lot about the balance of good and evil on FR, there are all sorts of beings who find this balance important. There's also beings who are concerned with the balance of civilization and nature, of law and chaos, of life and death, of life and unlife, of devils vs demons, of just about anything. Just because someone uses the word balance does not mean they are talking about the balance of good and evil in the forgotten realms.
We don't know why AO chose Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight to ascend. We don't have a damned clue. Well, let me rephrase that, unless the author gave us a clue then we don't have a clue why they were chosen to ascend.
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101This is what I meant by the disruption in Balance. This is only one example with good vs. evil.
I know you were referring to this particular balance, the balance of good and evil in the forgotten realms. I just don't think this is the balance that AO is referring to. We only have circumstantial evidence that vaguely points in that direction but we have nothing substantial.
The important part of my previous post was this;
quote:
Originally posted by Me
As much as I view the Spellplague to be a hamfisted plot device it doesn't have to destroy any balance, especially a balance that we aren't aware of (ie. what is AO balancing? the good vs bad of the realms? the law vs chaos of the realms? outside influence vs organic influence? we don't have an answer to what AO is balancing so we can't say when or if that balance is threatened)
We really don't know. Thus we can't say if the Spellplague, deific deaths or anything else particularly effects this balance that AO has spoken of in one novel to some being who we are unaware of. |
Edited by - ShadezofDis on 23 Feb 2008 16:19:21 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 16:55:31
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| I'm violating my WotC NDA to tell you this, but AO maintains the balance between good and bad cholesterol. Just remember, you didn't hear it from me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 17:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'm violating my WotC NDA to tell you this, but AO maintains the balance between good and bad cholesterol. Just remember, you didn't hear it from me.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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TheLemming
Acolyte
Austria
16 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 18:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'm violating my WotC NDA to tell you this, but AO maintains the balance between good and bad cholesterol. Just remember, you didn't hear it from me.
Damn it, that means he's the guy that wants to see us outside, taking a walk instead of sitting here in front of the pc?
:D :D :D |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2008 : 20:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by TheLemming
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'm violating my WotC NDA to tell you this, but AO maintains the balance between good and bad cholesterol. Just remember, you didn't hear it from me.
Damn it, that means he's the guy that wants to see us outside, taking a walk instead of sitting here in front of the pc?
:D :D :D
You know it, this is all just a service to the gaming community by WotC. They just want us to get outside and exercise. ;) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 16:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
The novel was hamfisted, in other words, it hit you with a mallet when you could have been gently pushed.
Wow, that statement pretty much sums up most, if not all, of the decisions that were made by the WotC crew for the 4e Realms. (I know that the sentence was directed at a novel, but I just had to comment.) |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 17:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
The novel was hamfisted, in other words, it hit you with a mallet when you could have been gently pushed.
Wow, that statement pretty much sums up most, if not all, of the decisions that were made by the WotC crew for the 4e Realms. (I know that the sentence was directed at a novel, but I just had to comment.)
I'd tend to agree. Especially where an "organically built" adventure comes in, as I have the best time "growing" a story arch when I get to include dynamics that are already in the area. (ie. I've got a game I run in Turmish and one of the major plot points for the PCs is that they're in a region where the Governor wants to overthrow the republic and re-instate a feudal type government, which was inspired by reading about the events in Turmish's past. If I hadn't had that past to draw upon and the various details that I've gotten from reading about Turmish I'd really feel like I was "forcing" the game, rather than letting the story happen.)
Phew, I'm getting carried away, but what I fear (and it's only a fear, I don't have any verification for this fear) is that the time jump and the spellplague will change the face of the realms and destroy my ability to build these same type of plots due to the lack of information available during the spellplague (ie. what happened in the Silver Marches over that period)
And the whole reason I play in the Realms is so that I can use that backstory and create stories that feel more "real" to me than looking through the MM and matching CR to EL. If I didn't have that backdrop to draw upon I might as well play a homebrew. |
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Tyr, Helm and Tymora, daily soap. A RANT!
