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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 08:02:05
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| Shar seems to be an obvious explanation, not only because of her use of the Karse-stone, but also because of her portfolio of secrets and the dark. Being (nearly?) as powerful as Mystra she should be able using her own portfolio to prevent Mystra from detecting a plot against hers. But is this explanation given in the FRCG or anywhere else? Of course not, why should there be any logic or consistency with the changes of the new edition? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 08:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works. Yes, this was very much inspired by the Venom symbiote being immune to Spider-Man's spider-sense. 
The Karse-Stone is highly "magical", right? Should Shar - who controls and probably uses the shadow weave - be able to use such an item at all? Shouldnt her touch disintegrate such an object with a "charge of opposite polarity"? Just guessing, but allowing her to do that doesnt seem right. For Cyric it would be a different matter, but then he is mad and probably wouldnt be able to kill Mystra fast enough due to her "backups". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 10:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works.
If the Karsus Stone is a magical artefact that uses the Weave then, as I understand it, Mystra should know about the stone's use 180 days in advance.
Although Karsus was a former deity of magic his divine rank should affect how effectively he could block Mystra's portfolio sense. Given that he's dead the question of divine rank is applied to the opposing deity. If I have remembered aright then Shar's rank is 18, which is the same as Mystra's. I should imagine that in her own godly realm, Mystra would detect the use of said artefact.
So, perhaps the question now becomes did Shar change the Karsus Stone into an artefact that uses the Shadow Weave since Mystra's portfolio sense is linked to the Weave and not the Shadow Weave? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 15:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works.
If the Karsus Stone is a magical artefact that uses the Weave then, as I understand it, Mystra should know about the stone's use 180 days in advance.
Although Karsus was a former deity of magic his divine rank should affect how effectively he could block Mystra's portfolio sense. Given that he's dead the question of divine rank is applied to the opposing deity. If I have remembered aright then Shar's rank is 18, which is the same as Mystra's. I should imagine that in her own godly realm, Mystra would detect the use of said artefact.
So, perhaps the question now becomes did Shar change the Karsus Stone into an artefact that uses the Shadow Weave since Mystra's portfolio sense is linked to the Weave and not the Shadow Weave?
But we really don't know that much about the Karsestone. My idea is that since it was part of a former deity of magic, it would basically present a blind spot to the existing deity of magic. She wouldn't be able to sense its presence or use, and anyone holding it would also be hidden from her sight. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Aug 2008 15:19:19 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 01:48:42
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Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)
Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 02:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)
Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...
We don't know that true names have any effect on deities -- I'm inclined to think they are beyond true names.
I'm also inclined to think that if Cyric could have used Midnight's true name against her, he would have done so much earlier. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 03:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)
Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...
From what I remember of the trilogy, She also told Kelemvor her true name, as one of the rewards required for him to do anything for anybody, and not trigger the curse of the Lyonsbane |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 03:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)
Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...
From what I remember of the trilogy, She also told Kelemvor her true name, as one of the rewards required for him to do anything for anybody, and not trigger the curse of the Lyonsbane
Cyric overheard this. That was how he got it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 03:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)
Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...
From what I remember of the trilogy, She also told Kelemvor her true name, as one of the rewards required for him to do anything for anybody, and not trigger the curse of the Lyonsbane
Cyric overheard this. That was how he got it.
that is what I was thinking, but did not remember enough to quote something without getting the book out  It has been a long time since I read that particular trilogy. Thanks for the clarification. |
Edited by - scererar on 31 Aug 2008 03:48:13 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 08:43:36
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quote:
We don't know that true names have any effect on deities -- I'm inclined to think they are beyond true names.
I think it could be an heritage from the basic D&D Immortal set... Even if it is true that Powers earned more True Names as they grow up in levels.
The Avatar Trilogy was a way to introduce the new 2nd Edition to the realms, and maybe the 1st Advanced was still somehow related with some of the ideas of the basic D&D.
quote:
I'm also inclined to think that if Cyric could have used Midnight's true name against her, he would have done so much earlier.
There are a lot of explanations for this... (Cyric's madness, not the proper time, the need of something like an ally...) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 15:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
quote:
We don't know that true names have any effect on deities -- I'm inclined to think they are beyond true names.
I think it could be an heritage from the basic D&D Immortal set... Even if it is true that Powers earned more True Names as they grow up in levels.
The Avatar Trilogy was a way to introduce the new 2nd Edition to the realms, and maybe the 1st Advanced was still somehow related with some of the ideas of the basic D&D.
It's my understanding that the original Dungeons and Dragons was a different beast than First Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.
Even if it wasn't, I don't know of anything indicating that any of the Immortal material was ever used in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
quote:
I'm also inclined to think that if Cyric could have used Midnight's true name against her, he would have done so much earlier.
There are a lot of explanations for this... (Cyric's madness, not the proper time, the need of something like an ally...)
The simplest explanation -- and the only one that really makes sense -- is that deities aren't subject to the restrictions of true names. Cyric wasn't mad before reading the Cyrinishad, and he was more than willing to attack Mystra -- hells, he had to attack the Weave directly to free Kezef. And Mystra had stripped him of his ability to use magic. If that wasn't a reason to nail her with her true name, then nothing was. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 16:16:33
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| I am not sure where I've read this but I think Mystra sacrificed the last or a great part of her former human being (Midnight) when Cyric tried to dominate her with her (human!) true name. So she could resist Cyric's attack since Mystra is not bound by the true of her former being. If someone could point me to a written source I'd be very grateful. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 14:16:21
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We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 16:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.
Cyric killed Bhaal...but only with the help of Mask. Cyric never fought Bane, it was Torm who killed Bane.
There is no logical explanation for Mystra Dying at the hand of Cyric. I've mentioned it before:
Cyric attacking Mystra in her home plane is like a common thief attacking an Arch-Mage in his tower. The tower is riddled with traps, contingency magic, servants and a whole list of other pitfalls for a would-be assassin.
Even with the help of Shar to cloak him in the Shadow Weave; I find it ludicrous that the Shadow Weave would even WORK in Dweomerheart! If there are places where Weave Magic is supressed, you can be damn sure that Mystra is going to ensure that a powerful weapon can't be used against her!
There is no amount of logic...or, in this case, illogic...that is going to convince me that Cyric would be able to take on Mystra in Dweomerheart and kill her. I mentioned that I might believe a war against Mystra could result in her demise...one in which Cyric, Shar and other evil gods and fiends invaded Dweomerheart; but the "lone gunman" scenerio just isn't going to wash with me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 13:18:17
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quote:
There is no amount of logic...or, in this case, illogic...that is going to convince me that Cyric would be able to take on Mystra in Dweomerheart and kill her. I mentioned that I might believe a war against Mystra could result in her demise...one in which Cyric, Shar and other evil gods and fiends invaded Dweomerheart; but the "lone gunman" scenerio just isn't going to wash with me.
It is illogic only because no explaination for this is given at all in the official lore...
A couple of peope, like myself, are trying to figure out a logical explaination for the event. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:05:45
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We have some new canon lore telling us EXACTLY how Mystra died - I posted it in a spoiler in the Novels forum, under The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!*** - you can't miss it.
Brace yourselves... it gets worse... MUCH worse...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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lockdar
Acolyte
Netherlands
18 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 08:20:32
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| Worse is actually a nice understatement, I now realize what a 'jaw-dropping moment' feels like since I just experienced it. |
Save yourself a penny for the ferryman. |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 09:15:19
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['AZZ!] (Italian way to express A LOT of surprise!)
ok... surprise set aside:
it was simply the attack that destroied Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff? |
Edited by - Arioch on 05 Nov 2008 10:14:18 |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 12:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We have some new canon lore telling us EXACTLY how Mystra died - I posted it in a spoiler in the Novels forum, under The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!*** - you can't miss it.
Brace yourselves... it gets worse... MUCH worse...
And so, 4FR takes yet another nose dive into the cesspit of lousy ideas!   |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 12:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We have some new canon lore telling us EXACTLY how Mystra died - I posted it in a spoiler in the Novels forum, under The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!*** - you can't miss it.
Brace yourselves... it gets worse... MUCH worse...
Hmmm ... a new thought: Hasbro sells "kids stuff", right? A lot of "kids stuff" is making fun of something. So that might be the reason why D&D is turning towards comedy as "lore" like this would indicate. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 15:44:43
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As I stated in that thread I started, I think Mr. Reid was told to include Mystra's death by Azuth's Staff (they are hedging their bets here), and that was what he came up with.
I'm unfamiliar with the storyline of that series, but from what little I have pieced together, that 'scene' was seen through the eyes of a main character, and didn't really have a lot to do with the novel. I'm just taking a shot in the dark here, but it almost seems as if Mr. Reid was annoyed by having to include something (for the sake of the game-setting) in HIS novel, and spitefully cheapened it to be the silliest scenario ever (or just didn't bother to give it more then two seconds worth of thought).
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
...or, you can tell an author what to write, but he can still screw you over with it's presentation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2008 15:45:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 16:31:17
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| We need to stop speculating on the author's intent, unless the author specifically weighs in. With the way the editing process at WotC works, we don't even know that he wrote that scene, or that he wrote it that way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 19:45:24
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Well, my point was that it just seems out-of-place, which you also seem to be hinting at (albeit from a different perspective).
It just seems a little 'forced', is all.
And I wish the author would weigh-in on this, so we could know for sure who to point the finger of blame at.
I remember early-on that Chris Perkins made an announcment/post stating that all 4e decisions should be blamed on him (I should dig that up), and that we should leave "poor Rich Baker" alone.
So Wooly, since he stated that, can we just blame EVERYTHING thats wrong with the universe on him? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 20:24:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It just seems a little 'forced', is all.
I think a lot of the recent setting developments feel forced. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 02:53:01
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.
-You are wise little one! May Cyric bless thee. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 03:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think a lot of the recent setting developments feel forced.
If people are talking about this type of event, the author has succeeded. My guess is that the entire storyline is manufactured to set up the bigger (and ultimately more profitable) storyline that is lurking just around the corner. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 03:58:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
You mean Bruce Cordell's next novel?
Plague of Spells
Just in time for Christmas too. Hope you bought your Hasbro stock! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 06:43:49
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Having just read that link, I can't help myself...
quote:
From the Plague of Spells blurb
Raidon Kane emerges from the Spellplague with a sapphire tattoo burned into his flesh, strange supernatural powers, and eleven missing years.
The world had ended. How could he forget that?
His daughter is dead. His home has been destroyed. His life is empty save for one thing.
Okay... so now the fictional characters are even trying to block the Spellplague from their minds?
We should find out what happened to him, and then try to duplicate the process for we here at the keep. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2008 21:17:41 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 13:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.
-You are wise little one! May Cyric bless thee.
BRIMSTONE
But we do know much about Mystra's strength, straight from Ed, pretty much saying she is the biggest, baddest kid on the block. Reading what he has said about her in the past, this storyline is unbelievable at best.
Wooly and/or Sage may be able to point to Ed's discussions of here quicker than I, but I know he has discussed her. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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How bloody stupid do they think Mystra is? A RANT
