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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 20:00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think there should be any "main villain" in the Realms.
Agreed. Having a main villain not only limits other villainous options, but it also means that the main villain will wind up being a primary focus. While that is certainly what's happening with Shar, I think it damages the setting. I like having oodles of evil folk, running around and sometimes stepping on each other's toes. It's more realistic, to me, and it gives more roleplaying opportunities. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 20:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like having oodles of evil folk, running around and sometimes stepping on each other's toes. It's more realistic, to me, and it gives more roleplaying opportunities.
Indeed, in my opinion it's way more fun when evil isn't monolithic. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
And Tyr falling in love with Tymora? Why not.
Note that the relevant text in GHotR never even mentions the word "love", or states that any one god in the scenerio actually loved another.
quote:
I like Shar as the main villain instead of Bane, who's always straight forward (tyranny and world domination ect).
I don't think there should be any "main villain" in the Realms.
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy. First Bane (with the help of Myrkul and Bhaal), then Cyric and now Shar (again with Cyric). Who's next? (maybe Mask makes a comeback as the mastermind  ) The thing I like about Shar is because, for me, was I didn't expect it from her. |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:40:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like having oodles of evil folk, running around and sometimes stepping on each other's toes. It's more realistic, to me, and it gives more roleplaying opportunities.
Indeed, in my opinion it's way more fun when evil isn't monolithic.
Yes, we know that, and the history of the Realms has shown us that, but of course to the new MMO-addled audience that WoTC are after, one big supper baddie is the way to go... 
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 00:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy. First Bane (with the help of Myrkul and Bhaal), then Cyric and now Shar (again with Cyric). Who's next? (maybe Mask makes a comeback as the mastermind ) The thing I like about Shar is because, for me, was I didn't expect it from her.
The problem with the "condensed list of gods" in 4e is that you have less choice as to which evil deity is behind it all. DMs can simply "roll a d6" to get the deity when creating an adventure instead of the "d8 (for the pantheon) and then a d10 (for the specific deity)" which worked in 3e. A lot duller IMO and it gets even worse for good aligned gods. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 00:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
And Tyr falling in love with Tymora? Why not.
Note that the relevant text in GHotR never even mentions the word "love", or states that any one god in the scenerio actually loved another.
quote:
I like Shar as the main villain instead of Bane, who's always straight forward (tyranny and world domination ect).
I don't think there should be any "main villain" in the Realms.
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy. First Bane (with the help of Myrkul and Bhaal), then Cyric and now Shar (again with Cyric). Who's next? (maybe Mask makes a comeback as the mastermind ) The thing I like about Shar is because, for me, was I didn't expect it from her.
Not really... While Bane did cause a lot of trouble, and Cyric did, too, there were always other evil folks around, and there were good guys that weren't solely dedicated to stopping just this one deity's followers. We had evil groups that didn't have too much to do with the gods, and good guys that worked towards a general good -- which didn't automatically mean thwarting evil group X and ignoring everyone else. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 01:13:55
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Based on the events of Avatar IV and V, Mask could have requested a greater deity call a council of the pantheon's greater gods to force Shar off his portfolio of shadows.
It's not as if Shar governed the portfolios of intrigue or shadows, and much of the pantheon would benefit by requiring her to adhere to her given portfolios.
Or did I misunderstand the mechanic of the council? |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 01:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
And Tyr falling in love with Tymora? Why not.
Note that the relevant text in GHotR never even mentions the word "love", or states that any one god in the scenerio actually loved another.
quote:
I like Shar as the main villain instead of Bane, who's always straight forward (tyranny and world domination ect).
I don't think there should be any "main villain" in the Realms.
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy. First Bane (with the help of Myrkul and Bhaal), then Cyric and now Shar (again with Cyric). Who's next? (maybe Mask makes a comeback as the mastermind ) The thing I like about Shar is because, for me, was I didn't expect it from her.
Not really... While Bane did cause a lot of trouble, and Cyric did, too, there were always other evil folks around, and there were good guys that weren't solely dedicated to stopping just this one deity's followers. We had evil groups that didn't have too much to do with the gods, and good guys that worked towards a general good -- which didn't automatically mean thwarting evil group X and ignoring everyone else.
You have a point but, when fighting one particular evil force the rest isn't ignored. I didn't mean the gods are the only villains but they're scheming the most I think. When was the last time the Red Wizards or the Cult of Dragons did something devastating? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 04:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Based on the events of Avatar IV and V, Mask could have requested a greater deity call a council of the pantheon's greater gods to force Shar off his portfolio of shadows.
It's not as if Shar governed the portfolios of intrigue or shadows, and much of the pantheon would benefit by requiring her to adhere to her given portfolios.
Or did I misunderstand the mechanic of the council?
You're prolly right... But Mask's reaction to Shar poaching his portfolio was something that was strangely ignored in 3E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 04:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really... While Bane did cause a lot of trouble, and Cyric did, too, there were always other evil folks around, and there were good guys that weren't solely dedicated to stopping just this one deity's followers. We had evil groups that didn't have too much to do with the gods, and good guys that worked towards a general good -- which didn't automatically mean thwarting evil group X and ignoring everyone else.
You have a point but, when fighting one particular evil force the rest isn't ignored. I didn't mean the gods are the only villains but they're scheming the most I think. When was the last time the Red Wizards or the Cult of Dragons did something devastating?
Why does it have to be devestating? The Red Wal-Marts did more to spread Thayvan influence than anything they'd pulled for 200 years before that.
As for the Cult of the Dragon, they were major players in the recent Dragonrage...
The thing is, though, that from what we've seen of 4E thus far, if there is something evil, it's somehow connected to Shar. For the last couple of years, she's been the major force for evil in the Realms, and the Shattered Realms appear to be continuing that trend. It appears that other evil deities -- like Bane -- or groups -- like the Twisted Rune -- are just sitting on their hands, watching Shar do all the evil stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 04:26:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're prolly right... But Mask's reaction to Shar poaching his portfolio was something that was strangely ignored in 3E.
[/quote]
I thought I read something about how Mask was tryin to get Shar to be his sugar mama. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 05:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Based on the events of Avatar IV and V, Mask could have requested a greater deity call a council of the pantheon's greater gods to force Shar off his portfolio of shadows.
It's not as if Shar governed the portfolios of intrigue or shadows, and much of the pantheon would benefit by requiring her to adhere to her given portfolios.
Or did I misunderstand the mechanic of the council?
You're prolly right... But Mask's reaction to Shar poaching his portfolio was something that was strangely ignored in 3E.
Thanks, Wooly!
Unless Ao stripped Mask of his portfolios or Mask *was* Vhaeraun and exited stage right with Vhaeraun, Mask needs to speak up. Gods willing, Kemp will explain all in the last Cale novel....
(This has bearing matter on how I procede with the shadow-mania WOTC's unleashed upon my 3.5 FR.) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 07:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The thing is, though, that from what we've seen of 4E thus far, if there is something evil, it's somehow connected to Shar. For the last couple of years, she's been the major force for evil in the Realms, and the Shattered Realms appear to be continuing that trend. It appears that other evil deities -- like Bane -- or groups -- like the Twisted Rune -- are just sitting on their hands, watching Shar do all the evil stuff.
Maybe this is all because Rich Baker likes goth chicks? |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 15:33:29
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| Goth chicks are fun, for a while at least. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 16:39:11
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Personally, the focus on Shar actually made me like the presentation of her FAR less. She's one of the oldest deities in the Realms, the Goddess of Secrets (amongst other things) and the portrayal is that of a short sighted, hammer wielding berserker, rather than a being who counts centuries as blinks of the eye. But then, the number of presentations of gods actions and motivations (in novel or source) that I find to be palatable could be counted on one hand.
But really, it's a vicious circle (IMO). Books with big bangs sell but source information with big players removes the spotlight from the PCs. Or, at least, that's my perception of events so far.
And, last for this post, monolithic anything tends to be not only limiting (wasn't the reason they blew up the realms because the background lore limited people too much?) but also forced and removes any sense of verisimilitude in any setting. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 18:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy.
That doesn't mean it's desirable (or should be that way). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 20:08:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy.
That doesn't mean it's desirable (or should be that way).
And it's certainly not always. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 21:44:39
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| I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 22:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?
How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 22:27:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?
How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...
Cyric a puppeteer? Last I heard was that he is kinda insane (in 3rd edition), which is kinda contradictory to the self-control he would need to manipulate others. But maybe he was just acting and fooling all the gods (and his portfolio wasnt murder and strife, but rather "Hollywood"). |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 14 Aug 2008 22:27:46 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 01:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...
Well, he would if he was an incompetent puppeteer. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Aug 2008 01:56:11 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 04:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?
How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...
I didn't say he was a good one
I have always thought he was incompitent ,but seems to be able to do things beyond his power and abilities. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 16:40:22
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What I like to know is, that even thou Shar gathered enough power to kill mystra, what about Azuth, he lives on Dweomerheart as well doesn't he?? And Larloch or the high Telamont they are so dependent on the weave that they would do what they could to prevent this. Especially Larloch. And also how do you get the weave sick... and as a divine being Mystra is immune to poisen is she not???
It justs does not make any sence... and all the other godt what the h.ll were they doing... at the moment of disaster? Masturbating???
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 19:32:25
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| Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 22 Aug 2008 19:34:27 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?
Now, now. That only applies if you want to deal with the subject logically and according to established lore. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?
Now, now. That only applies if you want to deal with the subject logically and according to established lore.
 Oh my! My mistake. I guess the real reason was that Mystra was washing her hair when she got killed. Or doing her nails. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:33:42
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She had the big date with Kelemvor and she knows that he *hates* it when she's running late!
Of course, now I'm picturing Azuth running around Dweomerheart, chasing after Mystra in a bathrobe with a towel on her head telling her 'But Mistress, this is Important!!'. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 04:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?
Now, now. That only applies if you want to deal with the subject logically and according to established lore.
Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works. Yes, this was very much inspired by the Venom symbiote being immune to Spider-Man's spider-sense. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 05:22:09
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| Could Shar have blocked Mystra's portfolio sense at all? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 05:35:36
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I thought of the Karse-stone scenario myself, when I first heard about this - Shar went to a lot of trouble getting it, so it makes some sense that it still somehow holds a link to Mystra's power.
A link Shar obviously somehow exploited. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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How bloody stupid do they think Mystra is? A RANT
