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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 21:19:27
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I had this odd little thought in the other thread (discussing the Empyrean novel), but its more appropriate here so I'll just quote myself -
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other way to interpret that blurb from BC's next novel (not sure if I quoted it here or in the other thread, but it had to do with the main character having NO memory of the Spellplague) is that he doesn't remember because he didn't live through it.
He's from an alternate timeline where the Spellplague never happened. 
That might seem a little far-fetched, but if you recall Bruce did use that plot device before in Darkvision, and having a character from an alternate quantum universe gives them a convenient way of 'ersaing' 4eFR if it doesn't pan-out eventually.
I'm just grasping at straws here, but the man has set a precedent for such a thing, so who knows?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 23:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had this odd little thought in the other thread (discussing the Empyrean novel), but its more appropriate here so I'll just quote myself -
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other way to interpret that blurb from BC's next novel (not sure if I quoted it here or in the other thread, but it had to do with the main character having NO memory of the Spellplague) is that he doesn't remember because he didn't live through it.
He's from an alternate timeline where the Spellplague never happened.
That might seem a little far-fetched, but if you recall Bruce did use that plot device before in Darkvision, and having a character from an alternate quantum universe gives them a convenient way of 'ersaing' 4eFR if it doesn't pan-out eventually.
I'm just grasping at straws here, but the man has set a precedent for such a thing, so who knows?
So are you are saying that the team responsible for 4$ is from another universe???
That explains alot!
I don't like cop outs like "oh he was from an alternate universe, so the stuff he said didn't happen", but if they wanna go that way and retract Mystra's murder/Spellplague....I would let it fly. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Nov 2008 00:12:35 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 20:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
We'll never know how powerful Cyric is...He's killed plenty of gods before he killed Mystra (mainly because he was underestimated)...This I think is one of the biggest mistakes the gods have on their enemies....one was Bane, the other that Illussion goddess....and yeah...Mystra would just be another one of his victims.
So yeah, I don't think it's unnatural for Mystra to die in the hands of Cyric....Mebbe she just...underestimated him.
-You are wise little one!  May Cyric bless thee.
BRIMSTONE 
But we do know much about Mystra's strength, straight from Ed, pretty much saying she is the biggest, baddest kid on the block. Reading what he has said about her in the past, this storyline is unbelievable at best.
Wooly and/or Sage may be able to point to Ed's discussions of here quicker than I, but I know he has discussed her.
Well, aside from killing Bhaal and Leira, Cyric did plenty of other things...one was that he tried to take control of the gods with that strange book by Rinda, the other is that he was able to numb Mystra and Kelemvor's feelings...etc. etc. etc....so I really wouldn't underestimate Cyric if that be the case.
Plus he's a greater deity...the same level as Mystra (with the exception of allies) and he has more portfolios compared to her...plus he's always sneaking up on anything.
Ao put him in the position to be the bane of the gods, so that's what he's doing right now...his job is to mess up the lives of the gods, and he's doing a pretty good job on it...well never know, maybe he got aid from primordials or beings more powerful than Ao...he did gain allegiance with The Night Serpent and Kezef before did he...So primordial aid wouldn't be too hard for him if he was able to gather those plenty of allies before. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 23:09:17
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-I always knew you were a smart one. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
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RedneckBadgerLord
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 10:36:53
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| WotC is great for plot decimation these days, ain't it? |
Redwall. Drizzt. Kentucky. Enough said.
I was weaned on 2E Baldur's Gate. Learned 3.5E, and can't stand 4E WoF. (Though I try not to mess up canon too badly). |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 03:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had this odd little thought in the other thread (discussing the Empyrean novel), but its more appropriate here so I'll just quote myself -
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other way to interpret that blurb from BC's next novel (not sure if I quoted it here or in the other thread, but it had to do with the main character having NO memory of the Spellplague) is that he doesn't remember because he didn't live through it.
He's from an alternate timeline where the Spellplague never happened.
That might seem a little far-fetched, but if you recall Bruce did use that plot device before in Darkvision, and having a character from an alternate quantum universe gives them a convenient way of 'ersaing' 4eFR if it doesn't pan-out eventually.
I'm just grasping at straws here, but the man has set a precedent for such a thing, so who knows?
So are you are saying that the team responsible for 4$ is from another universe???
That explains alot!
I don't like cop outs like "oh he was from an alternate universe, so the stuff he said didn't happen", but if they wanna go that way and retract Mystra's murder/Spellplague....I would let it fly.
It works for me too, particularly the theory regarding the 4E design team  ... until then, I'm happy to ignore and/or gleefully decimate canon whenever and wherever possible. I haven't read the novels since growing weary of the main character of the Dark Elf Trilogy, with the exception of the Elminster novels, which are always good if Ed's editors leave his words alone.
Anyway, until 5E rolls around (and possibly thereafter), my main group is happy to play our conglomeration of 3.5, house rules, and Pathfinder beta/final. My other group plays a mix of 3E and 3.5 rules set in a homebrew world, so the Spellplague is a complete non-issue. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 22 Jul 2009 03:03:14 |
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fuil dragonsfear
Acolyte
India
1 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 08:31:39
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I agree with Mace Wizards are killing the game with this Spellplague BS
How can D&D exist without Elminster and the chosen? |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 19:41:07
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With Ralminster of course!
Ralminster is a Level 8 fighter, Level 8 Barbarian, Level 8 Rogue, Level 8 Ranger Orehog/Quarter Orc, Quarter Elf, Quarter Human, Quarter Ogre (A result from an orgy)
One of the biggest badasses out there in FR. A martial epic warrior who can defeat almost any magical creature the gods or primordials give him.
It's said that when everytime Ralminster swings his mighty rapier a black-hole is created due to the powerful current of air pressure from the swing. Ha!! Take that epic spellcasters!!
Ralminster will be appearing on the upcoming NOvel "Ralminster, the making of a warrior". Which is set to be released in 2013.
Joke :p |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 20:04:15
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Wizards of the Coast pretty much revitalized the D&D name with a system of superior mechanics, easy and adaptive style gaming, a "plug-n-play" approach to races, classes, paragon paths, which works with ANY setting of D&D, and online content that makes things easy to reference. I'm pretty much completly happy with 4E as a system.
The Spellplague was able to take an un-interesting Goddess (who's alignment and character never seem to coinside with one-another) and her little happy family (lil' Chosen brats) and make it worth while for non-chosen/epic/bad-a$$ characters to actually do some good in the Realms too. It took sub-par areas (Unther, Mulhorandi, Maztica) and turned them into interesting places that weren't exact replicas of Earth. Introduced the races of Dragonborn (which I've always said were Dragon-kin of 3e/2e) and gave them more of a back-story. It also culled a Pantheon that was rather un-inspirational and generic and made it actually fun to choose a Deity that didn't over-lap with 10 others.
Though this is all IMO. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 18:41:51
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I disagree, that happens when you take canon, alignment and novels too seriously. Mystra is uninteresting? goddess of mysteries? I can't think of a few other among thousands of invented D&D gods that has such cool concepts as the Weave (how many discussions about its nature are there). Or the Magister, ever read that book. Spellfire? the myth of Netheril? A goddess who's human side is in conflict with the immortal one, isn't that more interesting than other gods who have nothing?
I don't get it, what do you have against Earth-analogies, whole D&D is based on the mythology and history of Earth, remove that you're left with nothing. Might as well remove knights in armor, temples, whatever, they are replicas too. Mythological Mesopotamia and Egypt aren't better than this http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94118.jpg , wtf who designed this crap, every time I see their picture I want to puke. They have a highly militant culture in Tymanther and kill dragons, whoever came up with this original concept deserves a medal. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 20:01:51
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Let me get this straight....
You couldn't use races, classes, monsters, ect from splat books or even other settings without having your hand held and being lead to that rather obvious fact by the nose? 
 Seriously......?
I never realized I needed 'permission' to do EXACTLY what I have been doing for years - I thought adapting stuff was all part of the genre. I'm just glad the RPG police never caught up with me and charged me with 'original thinking'.
Now, back in the OD&D/1e/2e days it was a bit of work doing just that, but the 3e system and the OGL was designed to make EVERYTHING from EVERWHERE compatible - it was a godsend. Never before did we have such freedom to use whatever we wanted.
Now we are back to all different systems and hard conversions - unless you want to stick with WotC-only material, like it was in the prehistoric days of gaming. I DO NOT LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO USE - I can think for myself, and I find 4e an infinite amount more limiting to my sessions by hamstringing my creativity with a propriety game system and lore-lite settings.
Self-Edit: Had a huge rant here about the setting changes to please the non-fans of the setting, but thought better of it (although it would have made Mace proud). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2010 20:15:11 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 20:34:25
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I think it speaks volumes about the flexibility of the 3E/3.5/d20 system that they used it for D&D, Star Wars, d20 Modern, DragonStar, Legend of the Five Rings, Urban Arcana, Mutants & Masterminds and, oh yeah, Pathfinder.
With 4th Edition you have Dungeons & Dragons and ... oh, that's right, Star Wars Saga was a hybrid of d20 and 4E. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 05:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Wizards of the Coast pretty much revitalized the D&D name with a system of superior mechanics, easy and adaptive style gaming, a "plug-n-play" approach to races, classes, paragon paths, which works with ANY setting of D&D, and online content that makes things easy to reference. I'm pretty much completly happy with 4E as a system.
The Spellplague was able to take an un-interesting Goddess (who's alignment and character never seem to coinside with one-another) and her little happy family (lil' Chosen brats) and make it worth while for non-chosen/epic/bad-a$$ characters to actually do some good in the Realms too. It took sub-par areas (Unther, Mulhorandi, Maztica) and turned them into interesting places that weren't exact replicas of Earth. Introduced the races of Dragonborn (which I've always said were Dragon-kin of 3e/2e) and gave them more of a back-story. It also culled a Pantheon that was rather un-inspirational and generic and made it actually fun to choose a Deity that didn't over-lap with 10 others.
Though this is all IMO.
Let me rephrase this for you: McDonald's pretty much revitalized interest in food with a system of superior drive-through technology, quick 'order it and have it in your gullet in under 2 minutes' style dining, a 'value meal' approach to basic nutrition, and a general company policy built upon a rock-solid faith in the idiocy of the consumer....
You know what, I'm going to stop parroting your phrasing directly, but you get the point. I *WILL*, however, carry on with the metaphor.
Regarding your beef with the gods; So, wait; it's better to have less to choose from?
Wait, I understand... I share your opinion. I wish that all food was just 12 dishes. I mean, they OVERLAP so much, what with the protein, the starch, the vegetables... I mean, how many varieties of food do you food grognards *need*, anyway? It doesn't matter to me that food has a rich and varied history; all I care about is the food on my plate RIGHT NOW. I don't want to be confused by a lot of options, nor do I care about nourishment. I want food that I can prepare in less than a minute, and that works with whatever other food I want to throw in. I don't want my dinner guests to worry themselves over what it is that they are eating; They should be able to mindlessly dig in and have a meal with no explanations. And don't muddy the issue with your cries of 'classical dishes' and 'wine pairings'. If I wanted homework, I'd go back to school.
Thanks, Diffan; you just helped me make the ultimate distinction in the 'edition wars'. 4E is Arbys and everything before is haute cuisine. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 03 Sep 2010 05:48:54 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 08:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Wizards of the Coast pretty much revitalized the D&D name with a system of superior mechanics, easy and adaptive style gaming, a "plug-n-play" approach to races, classes, paragon paths, which works with ANY setting of D&D, and online content that makes things easy to reference. I'm pretty much completly happy with 4E as a system.
The Spellplague was able to take an un-interesting Goddess (who's alignment and character never seem to coinside with one-another) and her little happy family (lil' Chosen brats) and make it worth while for non-chosen/epic/bad-a$$ characters to actually do some good in the Realms too. It took sub-par areas (Unther, Mulhorandi, Maztica) and turned them into interesting places that weren't exact replicas of Earth. Introduced the races of Dragonborn (which I've always said were Dragon-kin of 3e/2e) and gave them more of a back-story. It also culled a Pantheon that was rather un-inspirational and generic and made it actually fun to choose a Deity that didn't over-lap with 10 others.
Though this is all IMO.
Let me rephrase this for you: McDonald's pretty much revitalized interest in food with a system of superior drive-through technology, quick 'order it and have it in your gullet in under 2 minutes' style dining, a 'value meal' approach to basic nutrition, and a general company policy built upon a rock-solid faith in the idiocy of the consumer....
You know what, I'm going to stop parroting your phrasing directly, but you get the point. I *WILL*, however, carry on with the metaphor.
Regarding your beef with the gods; So, wait; it's better to have less to choose from?
Wait, I understand... I share your opinion. I wish that all food was just 12 dishes. I mean, they OVERLAP so much, what with the protein, the starch, the vegetables... I mean, how many varieties of food do you food grognards *need*, anyway? It doesn't matter to me that food has a rich and varied history; all I care about is the food on my plate RIGHT NOW. I don't want to be confused by a lot of options, nor do I care about nourishment. I want food that I can prepare in less than a minute, and that works with whatever other food I want to throw in. I don't want my dinner guests to worry themselves over what it is that they are eating; They should be able to mindlessly dig in and have a meal with no explanations. And don't muddy the issue with your cries of 'classical dishes' and 'wine pairings'. If I wanted homework, I'd go back to school.
Thanks, Diffan; you just helped me make the ultimate distinction in the 'edition wars'. 4E is Arbys and everything before is haute cuisine.
Oh, come on, that's just ridiculous. I may not agree with Diffan on most things concerning D&D and the setting, but its pretty clear that that's not what he meant. You might as well then class any Dragonlance fans as inferior to Realms fans because the world has fewer alternative and a straighter story line. And the description you give would actually be a standard "grognard" opinion anyway, and one I can actually agree with where a rpg is concerned.
The food and drink metaphors around here are really getting more and more ridiculous. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 08:38:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Wizards of the Coast pretty much revitalized the D&D name with a system of superior mechanics, easy and adaptive style gaming, a "plug-n-play" approach to races, classes, paragon paths, which works with ANY setting of D&D, and online content that makes things easy to reference. I'm pretty much completly happy with 4E as a system.
The Spellplague was able to take an un-interesting Goddess (who's alignment and character never seem to coinside with one-another) and her little happy family (lil' Chosen brats) and make it worth while for non-chosen/epic/bad-a$$ characters to actually do some good in the Realms too. It took sub-par areas (Unther, Mulhorandi, Maztica) and turned them into interesting places that weren't exact replicas of Earth. Introduced the races of Dragonborn (which I've always said were Dragon-kin of 3e/2e) and gave them more of a back-story. It also culled a Pantheon that was rather un-inspirational and generic and made it actually fun to choose a Deity that didn't over-lap with 10 others.
Though this is all IMO.
Let me rephrase this for you: McDonald's pretty much revitalized interest in food with a system of superior drive-through technology, quick 'order it and have it in your gullet in under 2 minutes' style dining, a 'value meal' approach to basic nutrition, and a general company policy built upon a rock-solid faith in the idiocy of the consumer....
You know what, I'm going to stop parroting your phrasing directly, but you get the point. I *WILL*, however, carry on with the metaphor.
Regarding your beef with the gods; So, wait; it's better to have less to choose from?
Wait, I understand... I share your opinion. I wish that all food was just 12 dishes. I mean, they OVERLAP so much, what with the protein, the starch, the vegetables... I mean, how many varieties of food do you food grognards *need*, anyway? It doesn't matter to me that food has a rich and varied history; all I care about is the food on my plate RIGHT NOW. I don't want to be confused by a lot of options, nor do I care about nourishment. I want food that I can prepare in less than a minute, and that works with whatever other food I want to throw in. I don't want my dinner guests to worry themselves over what it is that they are eating; They should be able to mindlessly dig in and have a meal with no explanations. And don't muddy the issue with your cries of 'classical dishes' and 'wine pairings'. If I wanted homework, I'd go back to school.
Thanks, Diffan; you just helped me make the ultimate distinction in the 'edition wars'. 4E is Arbys and everything before is haute cuisine.
Oh, come on, that's just ridiculous. I may not agree with Diffan on most things concerning D&D and the setting, but its pretty clear that that's not what he meant. You might as well then class any Dragonlance fans as inferior to Realms fans because the world has fewer alternative and a straighter story line. And the description you give would actually be a standard "grognard" opinion anyway, and one I can actually agree with where a rpg is concerned.
The food and drink metaphors around here are really getting more and more ridiculous.
Sorry you feel that way. Jorkens; to me it rings true. The penchant for 4E apologists is to tout the 'ease of use' and the 'lore-lite'-ness of the 'New Realms'. I fail to see how that is unlike fast-food.
And for the record, Diffan; my rebuttal was not, not, NOT meant as a personal attack. Not only are you entitled to your opinions, but you are much more reasonable in your presentation of them than others. I value your participation in this discussion, and hope that you don't take what I wrote as mean-spirited.
EDIT: Jorkens, I would never class DL *fans* as inferior to FR fans. I would (and am about to) class the Realms as a superior setting to DL, precisely because it has a richer and more varied history with more choices for players, DMs, game designers, and novelists. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 03 Sep 2010 08:42:09 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 08:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Sorry you feel that way. Jorkens; to me it rings true. The penchant for 4E apologists is to tout the 'ease of use' and the 'lore-lite'-ness of the 'New Realms'. I fail to see how that is unlike fast-food.
And for the record, Diffan; my rebuttal was not, not, NOT meant as a personal attack. Not only are you entitled to your opinions, but you are much more reasonable in your presentation of them than others. I value your participation in this discussion, and hope that you don't take what I wrote as mean-spirited.
EDIT: Jorkens, I would never class DL *fans* as inferior to FR fans. I would (and am about to) class the Realms as a superior setting to DL, precisely because it has a richer and more varied history with more choices for players, DMs, game designers, and novelists.
A preferred setting yes, if a long detailed history with heaps and heaps of lore is what you want. If a sandbox is what you want then old Greyhawke is superior, if you want a story you can jump right into then Dragonlance is superior etc. The things that are openings and choices to one person are hindrances and blocks to the next.
If I wanted to use a food metaphor I could always claim that the Realms are a heap of ingredients thrown together in a big pot by ten cooks and stirred around without any thought to the eaters palate. No I dont mean that, but it is as valid as the McDonalds metaphor.
My point is that blaming the 4ed. for people wanting a more direct setting for rpg's is ridiculous. I agree with you that the Realms was the wrong setting to do something like this with, especially as the big changes never worked wit the other TSR settings either, but the 3ed/4ed schism. is not behind every tendency or attitude in gaming.
I agree with what you probably meant in the post, but your wording was to extreme and a bit condescending in my opinion. Sorry but I am a bit touchy about generalisations and I don't mean this as a personal attack either. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 14:59:45
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So, to compromise what you're both saying, Greyhawk is Old Country Buffet, Dragonlance is Pizza Hut and the Realms is TGIFriday's?
(and I'm totally kidding) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 16:19:53
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| You got it. But in that case what is Dark sun, Spelljammer and Planescape? And don't say campaign settings. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 16:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I disagree, that happens when you take canon, alignment and novels too seriously. Mystra is uninteresting? goddess of mysteries? I can't think of a few other among thousands of invented D&D gods that has such cool concepts as the Weave (how many discussions about its nature are there). Or the Magister, ever read that book. Spellfire? the myth of Netheril? A goddess who's human side is in conflict with the immortal one, isn't that more interesting than other gods who have nothing?
I've never really seen that sort of charater portrayed in the novels I've read about her. No, I never read the Magister, though I do know what he/she is. But I should be more clear, even though I really didn't care either way about Mystra I think her death was handled rather poorly. I feel that the destruction of the Weave is a poor way to explain 4E magic in FR. Hells, I think the Weave supports 4E magic just the way it is. But Mystra is more than just the Weave, she's by far the most meddling deity I've read about in the Realms and that sorta bothers me. Not that Gods can't have a hand in doing things on the prime-material plane, just maybe not soo much?
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I don't get it, what do you have against Earth-analogies, whole D&D is based on the mythology and history of Earth, remove that you're left with nothing. Might as well remove knights in armor, temples, whatever, they are replicas too.
I have a problem with Egypt taken pretty much straight from Earth (gods and all) and *ploped* into the Realms. I don't care for the feel of the Egyptian theme nor would I ever want to run that style of campaign. I have absolutely no use for it what-so-ever. And as for Maztica and the "new world" idea, never cared for that as well. Now that could be because they never fully developed the concept but I want to play in a Fantasy setting, not "hey, lets play conquistadors and take all the Aztecs.....er.....Maztican gold!" Just not feeling it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Let me get this straight....
You couldn't use races, classes, monsters, ect from splat books or even other settings without having your hand held and being lead to that rather obvious fact by the nose?
Seriously......?
I never realized I needed 'permission' to do EXACTLY what I have been doing for years - I thought adapting stuff was all part of the genre. I'm just glad the RPG police never caught up with me and charged me with 'original thinking'.
I think I've been around here long enough for people to realize that I pretty much take what I want from what-ever setting I feel like and add it to my games or straigh-up homebrewing things. I've used everything from Eberron, to FR, to Dragonlance, to incorporating Warcraft RPG. But I'm not talking about what I allow in my games, rather the idea as a whole throughout the gaming (& more specifically the FR community) which tend to keep things separate. I can't count how many times I saw "Warforge?! Not in MY Realms!!" or Artificers?!? Not in MY Realms!!" so yea, they don't allow that stuff in their specific Realms but it gave off the presumption that it shouldn't be in ANY Realms, that the idea was unthinkable. Again, this is something I've perceived so take that for what you will.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, back in the OD&D/1e/2e days it was a bit of work doing just that, but the 3e system and the OGL was designed to make EVERYTHING from EVERWHERE compatible - it was a godsend. Never before did we have such freedom to use whatever we wanted.
Now we are back to all different systems and hard conversions - unless you want to stick with WotC-only material, like it was in the prehistoric days of gaming. I DO NOT LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO USE - I can think for myself, and I find 4e an infinite amount more limiting to my sessions by hamstringing my creativity with a propriety game system and lore-lite settings.
Not really sure what conversions your talking about since I've had little to no trouble with converting 3.5 sources (be they NPCs, characters, Feats, Prestige Classes, spells, equipment) and to be truthful, with 25 base classes ALREADY ( plus 2 more coming next march with the Necromancer and Hexblade) and the Essentials line creating yet more styles for existing classes (Knight, Gladiator, Mage, Warpriest) I don't see conversions as a problem really or any limitation on what your character can be. Even with the "role" system that 4E really pushes for you can be a hybrid of 2 classes and muticlass as well. I just don't see it.
But I can agree what I wish I'd see more 3rd party publishers do more 4E material and broaden the system so it's not ALL done by WotC. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 17:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan<snip>
But I can agree what I wish I'd see more 3rd party publishers do more 4E material and broaden the system so it's not ALL done by WotC.
Well, as long as the Licensing is set up like it is, you're not going to see anywhere near the 3PP support of 4E that 3E had. The fact that WotC had licensed Dragonlance to Margaret Weis Productions to produce 3E DL sourcebooks, but then pulled the license back from her and have done nothing with it shows that they're not interested in working with 3PP. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 17:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Hmmm...
Dark Sun = International House of Pancakes
Spelljammer = Carraba's
Planescape = Olive Garden
I would think Planescape would be more of a pancake nature. Several plates of reality interlocked and on top of each other and covered with various types of cultural toppings. Great, now I am both derailing the thread and hungry. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 18:19:24
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Well, I figured Dark Sun was the most *different* campaign, so it'd be IHOP. Whereas Spelljammer and Planescape both deal with a similar subject (i.e. the space/planes between settings), so they'd be similar restaurants but with the themes/menus different enough that you could distinguish the two.
And hey, derailment on a Mace Rant isn't always a bad thing. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 19:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I think it speaks volumes about the flexibility of the 3E/3.5/d20 system that they used it for D&D, Star Wars, d20 Modern, DragonStar, Legend of the Five Rings, Urban Arcana, Mutants & Masterminds and, oh yeah, Pathfinder.
With 4th Edition you have Dungeons & Dragons and ... oh, that's right, Star Wars Saga was a hybrid of d20 and 4E.
I agree that 3/3.5 was great in the arean of Flexability. Just look at the different supplements that version of d20 has supported. But that doesn't make 3/3.5 that great. Even with large quantities of differences for the product, there are still huge gaps which I feel are inferior to 4E. Here's some thing I consider better when it comes to the edition:[list]
Critical hits. I think it's pretty stupid that you have to *confirm* anything that's a natural 20. Period. Sure, for crit threat range on a roll of 17, 18, or 19 then the attack should have to hit the target (regardless of crit-range of a weapon) to make it a crit and thus (but no re-roll), dealing the appropriate amount of damage.
Play-ability at high to epic levels of play for NON-spellcasters is an absolute joke. Exactly how often does a 15-20th level fighter actually hit with their 4th and 5th attacks?! I've rarely seen it, and it's normally because our spellcaster HAS to cast certain, specific spells such as Brilliant Aura to make those attack even viable. It's definitly frustrating that there even is a power-curve in the game let alone one that I feel starts at around level 8 or so.
Racial penalties. Pathfinder took one step in the right direction with giving Races two +2 bonuses, yet still kept the -2 penality to one stat. I guess it's just me but I hate pre-disposition on certain Races (elves shoe-hored into Wizards, dwarves into Fighters). Personally, I don't feel this adds "character" mainly 'cuz I don't need rules to tell me how/what my character should be.
So there are just a few reasons I've pretty much switched over to 4E as my main system. Now I won't go-ahead and say that I don't like 3e/3.5/PF/d20/SW:saga but 4E is what I prefer.
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Let me rephrase this for you: McDonald's pretty much revitalized interest in food with a system of superior drive-through technology, quick 'order it and have it in your gullet in under 2 minutes' style dining, a 'value meal' approach to basic nutrition, and a general company policy built upon a rock-solid faith in the idiocy of the consumer....
You know what, I'm going to stop parroting your phrasing directly, but you get the point. I *WILL*, however, carry on with the metaphor.
I'm not a fan of McDonalds, so could we instead say..Burger King?
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Regarding your beef with the gods; So, wait; it's better to have less to choose from?
Wait, I understand... I share your opinion. I wish that all food was just 12 dishes. I mean, they OVERLAP so much, what with the protein, the starch, the vegetables... I mean, how many varieties of food do you food grognards *need*, anyway? It doesn't matter to me that food has a rich and varied history; all I care about is the food on my plate RIGHT NOW. I don't want to be confused by a lot of options, nor do I care about nourishment. I want food that I can prepare in less than a minute, and that works with whatever other food I want to throw in. I don't want my dinner guests to worry themselves over what it is that they are eating; They should be able to mindlessly dig in and have a meal with no explanations. And don't muddy the issue with your cries of 'classical dishes' and 'wine pairings'. If I wanted homework, I'd go back to school.
Thanks, Diffan; you just helped me make the ultimate distinction in the 'edition wars'. 4E is Arbys and everything before is haute cuisine.
I persoanlly don't need 5 freakin' gods that depict certain aspect of Nature. The queston is where does it stop? Why isn't there a separate God/ess of Ants, or spruce trees or sea-lions? I certainly don't need a God/ess of every apsect of the world or cosmos. For me, variety is all well and good as long as it means something. The FR3e pantheon just had little to no "umph" for me to really get involved with it overmuch.
And I love Arby's BTW. Though I think a combination of Burger King burgers, McDonald's Shamrock shakes, Wendy's french fries is the best thing. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 20:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Critical hits. I think it's pretty stupid that you have to *confirm* anything that's a natural 20. Period. Sure, for crit threat range on a roll of 17, 18, or 19 then the attack should have to hit the target (regardless of crit-range of a weapon) to make it a crit and thus (but no re-roll), dealing the appropriate amount of damage.
Yes, you have to confirm to see if you do extra damage, but the 20 is an automatic success no matter what. So even if you can at best hit an AC 30 with all the modifiers, if you roll a 20, you'll hit an opponent with an AC 100 (the damage done, however...)
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Play-ability at high to epic levels of play for NON-spellcasters is an absolute joke. Exactly how often does a 15-20th level fighter actually hit with their 4th and 5th attacks?! I've rarely seen it, and it's normally because our spellcaster HAS to cast certain, specific spells such as Brilliant Aura to make those attack even viable. It's definitly frustrating that there even is a power-curve in the game let alone one that I feel starts at around level 8 or so.
And what's the rules for 40th level in 4E?
That's not to say you aren't correct, high level non-spellcasters did have problems (in every edition since first). Now, Pathfinder's corrected some of those problems, as did 4th Edition. But, IMO, it hasn't been erased completely in either rules because of Wishes (unless 4E got rid of it?).
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Racial penalties. Pathfinder took one step in the right direction with giving Races two +2 bonuses, yet still kept the -2 penality to one stat. I guess it's just me but I hate pre-disposition on certain Races (elves shoe-hored into Wizards, dwarves into Fighters). Personally, I don't feel this adds "character" mainly 'cuz I don't need rules to tell me how/what my character should be.
Well, the favored classes came about because 3E was coming from 2E/AD&D, where the races were restricted to certain classes. I'm sure that if it was recreated today, Monte & crew would have gone the Pathfinder route where you would choose your favored class at creation.
(Hopefully this doesn't come across as an 'attack', I'm simply pointing out some of the reasons for the items listed.) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 03 Sep 2010 20:44:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 00:44:27
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First of all, NEVER insult Arby's!!!
I have traveled 700 miles just to eat there! (There are none anywhere near me). Of course, I was actually visiting my GF in Kentucky at the time... but I had her drive me right to Arby's from the airport!
I have also taken 3 vacations this summer, and drove FAR for all of them, and decided about which Rest Areas to stop-at based on weather they had an Arby's or not (No, I'm not kidding, and almost ran out of gas in Delaware because of it - waited 'till I got to Jersey)
As far as I'm concerned, Arby's is gourmet. Its the '3e/OGL' of fast food.
Anyhow, all I meant was that for years I had been converting material from game systems like MERPs, Runequest, C&S, Stormbringer, ect, ect... to D&D rules. When 3rd edition came around, most other settings/systems came on-board - for instance, the propriety system of Stormbringer became the 3e Elric game - most of my work had been done for me. Another example - I like a lot of stuff from Iron Kingdoms, and if 3e hadn't been 'open source', it would have been propriety and the rules would not have meshed all that well with my D&D campaign. With the notable exception of the Warhammer RPG, nearly all major settings became OGL, and the choices became near-infinite.
So I will admit that 4e is probably easier to run, and easier to design characters for, just because it is more linear and therefor the choices become obvious. 'Free form' design, like that we had in 3e becomes somewhat unmanageable, especially when you have 100 companies all designing exceptions to every rule.
So I understand why some folks prefer 4e, because it cuts way down on the rules-lawyer type arguments earlier editions did, but to some of us, that's all part of the game.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2010 04:56:33 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 01:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Yes, you have to confirm to see if you do extra damage, but the 20 is an automatic success no matter what. So even if you can at best hit an AC 30 with all the modifiers, if you roll a 20, you'll hit an opponent with an AC 100 (the damage done, however...)
Exactly, then it's not a "critical" hit then is it? I prefer the extra damage/additional benefits on a natural 20 regardless. I don't incorporate confirm rolls at all in my 3.5/PF campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And what's the rules for 40th level in 4E?
That's not to say you aren't correct, high level non-spellcasters did have problems (in every edition since first). Now, Pathfinder's corrected some of those problems, as did 4th Edition. But, IMO, it hasn't been erased completely in either rules because of Wishes (unless 4E got rid of it?).
Yep, Wish is pretty much no-more in 4E and I say good-riddance. But I'll agree with you that Pathfinder did a much better job at making higher level play enjoyable for non-spellcasters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Well, the favored classes came about because 3E was coming from 2E/AD&D, where the races were restricted to certain classes. I'm sure that if it was recreated today, Monte & crew would have gone the Pathfinder route where you would choose your favored class at creation.
Yea, I never understood the racial restrictions of 2e/AD&D(ie paladins could only be Humans and such) but to put penalties on races for "flavor" just isn't my cup of tea. I like the idea of races receiving bonuses that benefit certain classes and have no hindrances in pursuing others.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
(Hopefully this doesn't come across as an 'attack', I'm simply pointing out some of the reasons for the items listed.)
hehehe.....this is a great discussion, and I've not taken any offense from yours or Knight of the Gate's posts. As always, this sort of debate can get heated but that's sort of what makes it interesting.
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Originally posted by capnvan
Just so we're clear here — you're saying that you're perfectly comfortable home-brewing your Realms, and that everyone ought to be. At the same time, you also never liked some of the parts that have been removed, post Spellplague, and that they ought to have been, because, in your opinion, they were too RL-oriented.
Essentially, yes. I mean, did I like some of the RL-oriented areas of Faerun? No, but when they were there I ignored them and didn't pay attention to them at all.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Obvious question: If you were so comfortable with home-brewing the Realms, why would you be so vocal about how great the changes are? Why would you care? Not to say that you weren't happy about the changes, fitting into your conception of the Realms, which is fine, but why the effort to make the point that now the canon is better?
In short: Why are you so eager to plug the benefits of the changes if you never played in the canon Realms anyway?
It's not to say that I didn't play in Canon Realms pre-spellplague (though going by the "Fire the Canon" essay, none of us can actually play in Canon Realms), I chose NOT to put emphasis on the areas of the Realms that didn't appeal to me. But I'm plugging the benefits of FR4E mainly because I saw that much of the opinions here were against the changes and I thought to add my own 2-cents on the flip side of the argument. Of course I'm going to espouse the changes they made, and I'll tell anyone here that I promote 4E and FR4E if for any other reason than to change some people's minds that it's still a great setting with loads to explore. And that even though the changes they made are not to many people's liking, you can change that to suit your own purposes. And I feel that the 4E system is loads fun to play and for people to give that a chance. True, putting down 3.5 (an edition I still play quite often I'll have you know) might not be the best strategy, but often people gloss over the glaring problem (from my POV) to validate their hatred of something they might not have even tried. |
Edited by - Diffan on 04 Sep 2010 21:55:28 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2010 : 21:56:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
FYI, the last quote was of Capnvan and not me. Probably just a typo.
Noted and changed, my apologies. |
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How bloody stupid do they think Mystra is? A RANT
