| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 19:57:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Don't fight it. Ed will make you fall in love with the Realms all over again. Really.
Ed however only has 50,000 words in the guide and he is restricted to what WotC wants done. quote:
I prefer the 4E design over the 3.x, I love the new way to deal with the cosmology (greater/lesser/demi) and Ed is still deeply involed.
It will be hard to wait until August !
Well we do not know much yet about design except fewer dieties and three ranks of power. It does simpfy things and for those that want that it clearly is something to look forward to.
As for waiting until August odds are more information will be out there sooner to like or dislike. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
 |
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 20:02:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well we do not know much yet about design except fewer dieties and three ranks of power. It does simpfy things and for those that want that it clearly is something to look forward to.
As for waiting until August odds are more information will be out there sooner to like or dislike.
We knows that the "divine realms" in the Astral Sea will be holded by the greater gods and that the lesser/demi will form their courts.
That's really much better than the 3.x cosmology IMHO and I never liked the alignement-based wheel of the past editions. (Even if I was a fan of the faction-based, Sigil centered, planescape setting).
|
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 21:15:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I doubt Candlekeep's grognards is a large portion of the fanbase.
If I am going to be labeled something (which I find rather annoying)it would be nice with a definition. This term is being thrown left and right and it would be nice to know if you mean it as a compliment or as an insult.
As for how these changes will affect the fanbase, no one will now that until quite some time after publishing, so anything else will for now be speculations. |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 21:22:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
As for how these changes will affect the fanbase, no one will now that until quite some time after publishing, so anything else will for now be speculations.
The term is usually used (on D&D related forums) to label people who seems to hate changes no matter if they are "good" or not. e.g. people still playing 0D&D because that's the only true D&D.
That being said, I know perfectly that the situation here is not so simple. |
|
|
|
chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 21:45:10
|
Although I was initially somewhat interested when the 4E announcement came out, I am having serious reservations about the whole affair...and they worsen the more info is "leaked". Looking at the designer blogs, and the info about the 4E changes, it's hard to believe that the game system isn't receiving a complete rewrite to attract MMORPG players. Seriously, every character heals a little every round, but some characters have abilities that enhance the healing for every ally nearby (and, all because he or she scored a successful hit with a mace!)
And the Realms changes are even worse. Can't have a game world with political intrigue, varying cultures, a heavy backstory, and most landspace 'owned' by civilization....gotta do a complete wipe there. Nuke those high-level NPCs that the DM has the option of using as springboards or deus ex machina. Cut down all the dieties (too hard to design around them, and our customers are always clamoring for more F&A book); we'll give them one per alignment, and cut the racial dieties too...I mean, hey, who needs more than 9 dieties in a campaign anyway; we can use DL for a model.
I'm trying to reserve judgement until I can see the shipped product; but, he more I see, the more I'm sure that 4E FR resembles what has gone before about as much as Gamma World resembles current RL. I love Ed's handiwork, and I'm sure that with his help, 4E might grow into a campaign world I can support...I'm just having a hard time believing it will still be the Realms.
But then again, I'm just an old timer still grumbling about the need to off Leira to justify giving Cyric a title he could use for his book. |
Edited by - chance87 on 09 Dec 2007 21:46:23 |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 23:22:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Skeptic, all this is going to be divisive enough without that kind of labelling. Let's try and take each other's thoughts and feelings for what they are without reducing us to tribes.
Tribes ? I tought I was the only FR-fan who likes 4e changes here 
Hmm.. maybe I'm the only vocal one..
Honestly, I know what I like about the Realms, and how I like it presented, and I spend time at Candlekeep because I like the people here and their ideas on the Realms. It is generally irrelevant whether my opinion is in the majority or not.
That having been said, from some of the responses that the designers have made regarding people misunderstanding their intentions or the like, while the majority may not think like we pitiful few here at Candlekeep, I think that WOTC does still have a significant number of people who are fans of the Realms that are leery of the potential changes.
But again, it matters little, because I know it doesn't serve my purposes or my tastes, and beyond that, I can't really do much about how other people receive such changes.
Hear hear! I couldn't have said this better myself! Skeptic, there are a number of esteemed FR scribes and sages I've seen being very disappointed at these changes -- although we here at the 'Keep do not represent any sort of "majority", I do think that we qualify as a demographic group for a sampling of how FR fans feel about 4E. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 00:45:49
|
*chuckles*
I first started playing in the Realms during 3.5 Edition. That clearly makes me a grognard!
I'm all for change, when it's good change. None of these changes so far appear to me to be good ones. Ed Greenwood, as great a designer as he is, can't single handedly save all that's good about the Realms as I know it, when faced with a company that simply does not understand the Realms and wants to change it to appeal to those who hated the Realms in the first place. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 01:07:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I was already in love with the Realms.
Same here. I haven't fallen out of love with it or anything!
Although of course I'll check out what Ed has to say about the "new Realms". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 10 Dec 2007 01:07:41 |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 01:32:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
*chuckles*
I'm all for change, when it's good change. None of these changes so far appear to me to be good ones.
Okay, then let's argue about it.
Go first, what changes you dislike and why.
Hmmm.. I'm not sure the mods will like it... |
Edited by - Skeptic on 10 Dec 2007 01:36:27 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 02:02:09
|
Indeed, we won't. Uzzy, Skeptic... if you want to discuss this issue, then take it to PMs.
Consider this your first and only warning. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Dec 2007 02:03:27 |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 03:38:27
|
Sage and other concerned mods,
Might I also suggest we stay respectful to everyone here, in the good tradition of Candlekeep, and try to kill the use of this defammatory 'grognard' term while it is in its infancy?
If we learned anything from the 2nd World War and the way Hitler painted the Jewish people as a charicature, it's that defammation and labeling can never lead to anything good. I do not want to sound alarmist and too over-the-top, but the way certain posters here are making tactical insertions of the 'grognard' term to group certain posters with similar ideas into one neat little insignificant, puny and irrelevant category does not sit well with me at all.
Thank you, Sage and other mods, for your time, consideration and understanding. |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 03:54:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Sage and other concerned mods,
Might I also suggest we stay respectful to everyone here, in the good tradition of Candlekeep, and try to kill the use of this defammatory 'grognard' term while it is in its infancy?
If we learned anything from the 2nd World War and the way Hitler painted the Jewish people as a charicature, it's that defammation and labeling can never lead to anything good. I do not want to sound alarmist and too over-the-top, but the way certain posters here are making tactical insertions of the 'grognard' term to group certain posters with similar ideas into one neat little insignificant, puny and irrelevant category does not sit well with me at all.
Thank you, Sage and other mods, for your time, consideration and understanding.
  
How they call this law about the probability to bring the "nazy" thing into a forum's thread ? |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 04:48:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Sage and other concerned mods,
Might I also suggest we stay respectful to everyone here, in the good tradition of Candlekeep, and try to kill the use of this defammatory 'grognard' term while it is in its infancy?
If we learned anything from the 2nd World War and the way Hitler painted the Jewish people as a charicature, it's that defammation and labeling can never lead to anything good. I do not want to sound alarmist and too over-the-top, but the way certain posters here are making tactical insertions of the 'grognard' term to group certain posters with similar ideas into one neat little insignificant, puny and irrelevant category does not sit well with me at all.
Thank you, Sage and other mods, for your time, consideration and understanding.
I'll take this up with Alaundo and the other Mods.
For now, though... let us return to the topic of this particular scroll. Let's have no more off-topicness please. 
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Dec 2007 04:49:09 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 17:14:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Sage and other concerned mods,
Might I also suggest we stay respectful to everyone here, in the good tradition of Candlekeep, and try to kill the use of this defammatory 'grognard' term while it is in its infancy?
I totally second this! "Grognard" is being thrown around on the WotC boards all over the place (mainly as an insult, of course), and I'd rather these boards not acquire such a nasty atmosphere.
|
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 17:26:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I totally second this! "Grognard" is being thrown around on the WotC boards all over the place (mainly as an insult, of course), and I'd rather these boards not acquire such a nasty atmosphere.
That's fine, but don't forget all the insults flying around around the 4E designers |
Edited by - Skeptic on 10 Dec 2007 17:27:02 |
|
|
|
Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 17:33:33
|
| I've clearly been out of the loop too long. *sighs* |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 18:16:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
As for how these changes will affect the fanbase, no one will now that until quite some time after publishing, so anything else will for now be speculations.
The term is usually used (on D&D related forums) to label people who seems to hate changes no matter if they are "good" or not. e.g. people still playing 0D&D because that's the only true D&D.
That being said, I know perfectly that the situation here is not so simple.
The proper application of the word "grognard" means that you are one of the "old guard." I hate that people keep using it as an insult. I am honored to be one of the "old guard" of the Realms. And I think that the "old guard" of the Realms is larger than WotC or the people who use it as an insult believe, and therefore ticking them off with the changes in the "new" Realms is not a wise decision. I also want to buy into the "new" Realms. And so, I will look at it when it is finally published and continue to post my opinions (and vainly hope that the design team at least considers what I and others are saying) until it is. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 18:24:35
|
*shrugs*
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=grognard
There appear to be many deffinitions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
|
|
sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 19:44:53
|
One of the must frustrating things about this whole thing to me is the lack of information available to us. There are many folk out there who love the realms and if someone comes along and tells you they are going to change something you love or truly enjoy it can be hard to just sit back and wait for the info to trickle in (especially when much of the info that does come through seems to make little sense).
I do wish we had a better idea of when we will be getting more info on certain things such as how much of a time jump, how exactly the Spellplague will be implemented, and such things. I could have sworn in the Ask the Realms Author thread over at the WotC boards that Rich said we would find out more specific info relating to the new year of the setting in November or December. But according to this interview they won't be releasing that info until sometime in 2008  as per their schedule (boy would I like to get a peek at that thing  ). |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 19:52:55
|
It does appear their schedule is subject to change with out much if any notice.
However WotC and even TSR to some degree liked to keep secrerts as long as posible. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2007 : 20:29:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
One of the must frustrating things about this whole thing to me is the lack of information available to us. There are many folk out there who love the realms and if someone comes along and tells you they are going to change something you love or truly enjoy it can be hard to just sit back and wait for the info to trickle in (especially when much of the info that does come through seems to make little sense).
I do wish we had a better idea of when we will be getting more info on certain things such as how much of a time jump, how exactly the Spellplague will be implemented, and such things. I could have sworn in the Ask the Realms Author thread over at the WotC boards that Rich said we would find out more specific info relating to the new year of the setting in November or December. But according to this interview they won't be releasing that info until sometime in 2008 as per their schedule (boy would I like to get a peek at that thing ).
That's been my stance. I want some real info -- not these dribs and drabs, or rumors, but real, honest-to-Bob info, something I can take to the bank. Until we have that, there simply isn't enough information to make a truly informed decision. Granted, some of the things we've heard are quite distasteful, but it's still only tidbits. And there is nothing to say that they won't manage to pull off making it something we will thoroughly enjoy, despite the negative stances some have already adopted.
But for the love of Lurue, they could be a bit more forthcoming with info! I find it particularly frustrating that some questions -- most notable the time-jump -- remain unanswered.
I can't say I'm looking forward to what 4E is going to do to our setting. But I'm not going to dread it or rip into anyone until there exists reason to do so.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 03:57:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't say I'm looking forward to what 4E is going to do to our setting. But I'm not going to dread it or rip into anyone until there exists reason to do so.
I concur and am trying to hold back any judgments or too strong of feelings but this waiting is dreadful!  |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 06:17:14
|
Reading between the lines as attentively as I can peer, I believe that the lack of more concrete information stems from these reasons:
1. The mystery builds anticipation, speculation, and therefore "buzz" (free publicity), which is a desired end in itself even if not all of the speculation is positive (example of this mystery: the time jump).
2. Some material is changing as the 4e rules firm up and as design work unfolds (e.g. the god shifts), so we CAN'T be told yet.
3. A lot of material just hasn't been written yet (so again, we can't be told yet).
We're just going to have to hang in there. Ed says a very talented team is hard at work, with some names we know and love (but as yet unrevealed as being involved with 4e FR) jumping on board as the process moves along. He hates the short time available for his current project, but is VERY pumped by some of the design he's seen by others, thus far. So if any of this hinting makes anyone feel better, here you are.
(Yes, the waiting is driving me nuts, too. Think I'll go and tease Ed - - but no! Every time I do, I delay him a little in getting the new stuff finished. Mustn't! BAD girl! Need spanking!
[ahem]
love,
THO |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
|
|
sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 14:49:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Reading between the lines as attentively as I can peer, I believe that the lack of more concrete information stems from these reasons:
1. The mystery builds anticipation, speculation, and therefore "buzz" (free publicity), which is a desired end in itself even if not all of the speculation is positive (example of this mystery: the time jump).
2. Some material is changing as the 4e rules firm up and as design work unfolds (e.g. the god shifts), so we CAN'T be told yet.
3. A lot of material just hasn't been written yet (so again, we can't be told yet).
We're just going to have to hang in there. Ed says a very talented team is hard at work, with some names we know and love (but as yet unrevealed as being involved with 4e FR) jumping on board as the process moves along. He hates the short time available for his current project, but is VERY pumped by some of the design he's seen by others, thus far. So if any of this hinting makes anyone feel better, here you are.
(Yes, the waiting is driving me nuts, too. Think I'll go and tease Ed - - but no! Every time I do, I delay him a little in getting the new stuff finished. Mustn't! BAD girl! Need spanking!
[ahem]
love,
THO
Thanks THO, it certainly makes me feel a little bit better (especially the last couple sentences. )
Also I wonder who those unrevealed names are. |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 15:40:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
BAD girl! Need spanking!
[ahem]
love,
THO
There's a particular "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" line that comes to mind now... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 16:26:56
|
You know, the one thing that makes me wonder is why they don't, until now, appear to have a firm sense of what 4e will look like. There are bits and snippets, but if I remember correctly they've been "working" on 4e since 2004-2005ish Yet the books aren't even in a true format yet and rules sound more like a bit of this and that plus a lot of new house-rules.
With the deadline and release-date coming up faster and faster, I wonder if the gamers will be more like beta-testers and 4.25 is already in the planning phase based on the coming reaction...
Maybe, hopefully, some people who are in the say in regard to FR will decide that such a major shift from what has gone before is useless and uncalled for. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 03:53:03
|
I stumble upon Mr Perkins interview by chance for i had pretty much decided to leave WotC to their 4th ed and be on my merry way with all the FR books i accumulated over the last 20 years. I haven't seen anything really new since 2ed anyway so the 4th edition of the realms was nothing more than a rewrite of everything already printed. The only difference being that time has advanced in Cormyr, the dales and Waterdeep. You see, i don't follow FR like a soap opera and once they writen about a region, i build upon it and really don't need any revisited edition.
So, now i'm very excited to hear that they will FINALLY going to write about the whole planet, other continents and other regions than those covered in Fearun...I've been waiting for this since 1995 i think...My interest is again peaked and i can't wait for the new FRCS to read about these places...It's probably going to be only 20 pages or less but finally i'll get something new.
Pat |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 04:25:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Patrakis
So, now i'm very excited to hear that they will FINALLY going to write about the whole planet, other continents and other regions than those covered in Fearun...I've been waiting for this since 1995 i think...My interest is again peaked and i can't wait for the new FRCS to read about these places...It's probably going to be only 20 pages or less but finally i'll get something new.
Pat
From all indications they are going to write about a blank world. The Points of Lights the feature, the rest unmapped. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Dec 2007 04:26:15 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Chris Perkins Interview
