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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 17:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by nb_nmare
It's been established on more than one occasion that, in the Forgotten Realms at least, gods sometimes perform miracles and grant abilities that would normally be beyond the powers of the worshipper(s) present. Another example is in Shadowstorm, where Lathander cures an entire village of disease.
Maybe I have to re-read that sequence, but given that Paul tends to stick to the rules I rather viewed that as something perceived by the Lathandrian chap, i.e. a perceived blessing of Lathander on(, rather than an actual curing of) that village. Then again, that scene reminded me so much of Legolas' words in LotR about the blood-red sun rising and the bloodshed that goes along with that ... to make me miss the finer details here.  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 25 Nov 2007 17:38:55 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 18:27:38
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It is mentioned in either Finder's Bane or Tymora's Luck, that Joel (A cleric of Finder Wyvernspur) could cast more powerful spells then the ones he could case as a low level cleric... if Finder's attention is directly on him at the time the call went out. Or that is how I remember it.
So it would be possible for you to cast a major spell, but you would need the deity's direct attention. I can see it as a roll of some kind (Spellcasting in 3.5 ed) with modifiers like is the calling involving promoting the cause of the god or is it made to save the lives of worshipers of the god. Or penalties like just being asked to boost the ego of cleric.
It would also be a high Dc to make that role as well.
Just some thoughts. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 25 Nov 2007 18:28:20 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 21:59:35
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| I think as long as "special stuff" like that doesn't happen too often it's fine. In the case of Liriel, I thought she was able to do "special stuff" too often to be believable (and remember, it was never stated for a fact that Liriel was a Chosen of Lolth, that was just the speculation of other characters). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 23:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think as long as "special stuff" like that doesn't happen too often it's fine. In the case of Liriel, I thought she was able to do "special stuff" too often to be believable (and remember, it was never stated for a fact that Liriel was a Chosen of Lolth, that was just the speculation of other characters).
... indeed and it's the same with Drizzt and his supposed status as a Chosen of Lolth too. In Liriel's case, at the beginning of her second novel, Tangled Webs, she turns an undead which, at the time, she was not able to do. (She was a straight Wiz back then, according to the Heroes' Lorebook. We - i.e. Elaine Cunningham and a handful of WizBoarders - converted her to 3E and included the cleric levels only after TW, because of her early studies and the events of TW.)
The thing with the FInder chap in said novel was pretty clear as well, as he was, at the time, the only priest of the god on all Toril. So he had quite a bit of Finder's attention, you'd guess. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 03:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
The thing with the FInder chap in said novel was pretty clear as well, as he was, at the time, the only priest of the god on all Toril. So he had quite a bit of Finder's attention, you'd guess.
I'm wanting to say there was one other -- a saurial. I'm wanting to say her name was Copperbloom, and that she was Dragonbait's wife... But it's been a while since I read those books, and I've not replaced them yet. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Akeri Rualuavain
Seeker
Canada
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 03:55:43
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| Dragonbaith's wife is a priestess of Tymora, the lady luck or some Deity like that if my memory is good... At least in the third novel, because When Champion tell his story he clearly say that this was the reason why he had left his village... Because of the "duality" between his opinion of life and her's. |
Sorry for my bad English, I'm french born
The courage to follow our dreams is the first step to achieve our destiny
The tale of Eric and the Dread Gazebo
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 04:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Akeri Rualuavain
Dragonbaith's wife is a priestess of Tymora, the lady luck or some Deity like that if my memory is good... At least in the third novel, because When Champion tell his story he clearly say that this was the reason why he had left his village... Because of the "duality" between his opinion of life and her's.
He remarried, after the Finder's Stone trilogy, if I remember correctly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Akeri Rualuavain
Seeker
Canada
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 12:05:18
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| :(, sorry, an other story I did not read... Difficult to keep track. |
Sorry for my bad English, I'm french born
The courage to follow our dreams is the first step to achieve our destiny
The tale of Eric and the Dread Gazebo
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 14:43:45
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Yes, I remember a priestess of Finder named Copperbloom. Of course, that's still just two clerics of one god.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:09:21
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| Don't forget that in the 3rd Edition Realms, Finder's Bane never actually happened, since the city of Sigil (which is rather crucial to events in the book) doesn't exist . |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Don't forget that in the 3rd Edition Realms, Finder's Bane never actually happened, since the city of Sigil (which is rather crucial to events in the book) doesn't exist .
Unless I am mistaken, the PGtF gives a mention of that place. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:49:26
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| Yes, Sigil did get mentioned once (or more than once) in 3E FR. It's still around. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Nov 2007 15:49:45 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 16:25:30
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I'll have to check the PGtF tonight, I don't remember that at all .
Some of the book also takes place elsewhere in the Outlands (including one of that plane's gate cities). Even if the Outlands also still exist somewhere in 3E FR cosmology, during their journey in the Outlands the adventurers (accidentally, IIRC) stray into the domain of Ilsensine... but of course, in 3E FR Ilsensine's domain is in the Caverns of Deep Thought.
EDIT: not sure why I said Caverns of Deep Thought, I of course meant the Deep Caverns . |
Edited by - nbnmare on 26 Nov 2007 21:07:50 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 17:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
I'll have to check the PGtF tonight, I don't remember that at all .
Some of the book also takes place elsewhere in the Outlands (including one of that plane's gate cities). Even if the Outlands also still exist somewhere in 3E FR cosmology, during their journey in the Outlands the adventurers (accidentally, IIRC) stray into the domain of Ilsensine... but of course, in 3E FR Ilsensine's domain is in the Caverns of Deep Thought.
However, they could have taken place on the Wheel's Outlands even though FR's planes are different. :) And yes, Rich has also confirmed, more then once, that Sigil exists. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Akeri Rualuavain
Seeker
Canada
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 19:58:09
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 Now i'm really mixt-up ! |
Sorry for my bad English, I'm french born
The courage to follow our dreams is the first step to achieve our destiny
The tale of Eric and the Dread Gazebo
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:01:40
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| You're not the only one... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
I'll have to check the PGtF tonight, I don't remember that at all .
Some of the book also takes place elsewhere in the Outlands (including one of that plane's gate cities). Even if the Outlands also still exist somewhere in 3E FR cosmology, during their journey in the Outlands the adventurers (accidentally, IIRC) stray into the domain of Ilsensine... but of course, in 3E FR Ilsensine's domain is in the Caverns of Deep Thought.
However, they could have taken place on the Wheel's Outlands even though FR's planes are different. :) And yes, Rich has also confirmed, more then once, that Sigil exists.
And even better, there is only one Sigil, unlike all that nonsense with multiple astrals and other planes. Sigil is unique, which, me being a fanatic Planescape: Torment fan, I really appreciate. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
Edited by - khorne on 26 Nov 2007 20:49:25 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
However, they could have taken place on the Wheel's Outlands even though FR's planes are different. :) And yes, Rich has also confirmed, more then once, that Sigil exists.
And even better, there is only one Sigil, unlike all that nonsense with multiple astrals and other planes. Sigil is unique, which, me being a fanatic Planescape: Torment fan, I really appreciate.
As do I. :)
Also, to the other posters, that Sigil reference isn't in the Player's Guide, it's in F&P in one of the locations in the back of the book, there's a room that has a portal to/from Sigil. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Veldrin Laervain
Acolyte
Canada
28 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 21:32:53
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| i'm realy lost too. |
Destiny is as great as our choice.
A situation will always have two side, a bad and a good.
May the song of the Dark Maiden guide the step of your life's dance |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 23:17:13
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In 3e, Sigil does still exist as the City of Doors, but it now occupies a completely separate planar environment all its own inside the Great Wheel of the 3e D&D core cosmology -- as confirmed by Rich Baker. What is special about this individual plane inside the Great Wheel [and atop the Spire] is that the independent nature of the plane in which Sigil rests allows this Sigil to be the only Sigil in the entire multiverse -- thus, the Sigil of the Great Wheel is also the Sigil of the Great Tree for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.
Veldrin, Akeri, and Gryphon... if you're all still confused, I suggest you take a look at SECTION D in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct [see the link in my sig] for a more detailed analysis of the planar structure of 3e and the changes that occured between 2e and 3e.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 Nov 2007 23:18:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 23:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, Sigil did get mentioned once (or more than once) in 3E FR. It's still around.
Plus, we got another reference about Sigil too in Grand History on pg. 148. Neato! 
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Also, to the other posters, that Sigil reference isn't in the Player's Guide, it's in F&P in one of the locations in the back of the book, there's a room that has a portal to/from Sigil.
The portal Kuje references is from Sigil to Toril. 'Tis mentioned in the "Abbey of the Sword" reference in F&P on pg. 161 P3-Magic Portal -- one-way from Sigil to Toril.
Also, considering that the Sigil of the Great Wheel in 3e is the same Sigil in the FR's Great Tree cosmology... I would think any of the 2e portals that were in existence and leading from either Toril or Sigil to Sigil or Toril have the possibility of still being active in 3e provided nothing has resulted in their closure.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 Nov 2007 23:19:53 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 17:25:39
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Well, for those having problems with old and new cosmologies, doubles here and there in the settings, why not take the easy option? The Abyss and the Nine Hells (and whatever planes are described in both the core and the FR settings) are just tools to be used, as is the Manual of the Planes. They tell you what goes on there and how planar stuff is treated ruleswise.
Then take your preferred setting - check how cosmology is described in there and just take the Abyss as such (or the Nine Hells), not linked to anything, and attach it at the right spot in your setting. And it does not matter one bit if there are similar names or creatures and demon lords in various settings. You simply use your setting and your Abyss. And if you stumble accross a Lolth in the Abyss, you will know that this is fine for Greyhawk, but not for you - any longer. For Lolth wrenched her layer out of the Abyss and created her own plane within FR cosmology. Which in essence simply means that there is either a great hole in the FR Abyss at layer 66, or a barren infinite place with no ruler.
Yes, it can be that simple. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 27 Nov 2007 17:32:52 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 22:52:10
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Ed's perspective on the various planar frameworks is one I've often loved. For example, he prefers to use both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said -
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 00:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ed's perspective on the various planar frameworks is one I've often loved. For example, he prefers to use both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said -
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
I love this description, too.
To me, the Great Tree and the Great Wheel are one and the same. Only the perception of the mortal involved (or his belief) that molds what he is seeing, when the matter concerns the planes of existence. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Veldrin Laervain
Acolyte
Canada
28 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:36:40
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| I think a bit that way too, because the DM is always right! And the DM work for his fun and his player's fun... |
Destiny is as great as our choice.
A situation will always have two side, a bad and a good.
May the song of the Dark Maiden guide the step of your life's dance |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 21:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Veldrin _Laftria
I think a bit that way too, because the DM is always right! And the DM work for his fun and his player's fun...
i agree too with this opinion |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 05:17:20
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A better question is "Will Sigil be around in 4.0?"
Back to the subject at hand, where does the lack of a magic goddess leave clerics of mystra and chosen? |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 12:44:25
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Chosen aren't continuously granted spells and abilities by their god like clerics and other divine casters; rather, they contain a portion of their deity's divine essence. As various novels have demonstrated (particularly the Avatar series and the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy), a deity need not be alive and/or able to grant spells and abilities in order for their Chosens' abilities to function. (EDIT: It's not in any way cannon, but it would also be logical any divine spellcasters who are Chosen to still be able to cast spells, though perhaps they'd be limited to spells below a certain level).
Clerics of Mystra, on the other hand, will be in exactly the same boat as clerics of any other dead god: unable to receive spells unless they become worshippers of another deity, or they take the Servant of the Fallen feat (a feat I expect can be dropped strait into 4E), or another deity specifically starts granting spells to clerics of Mystra (Selune would seem a likely candidate). |
Edited by - nbnmare on 29 Nov 2007 17:14:36 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 10:26:39
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| Hey, as we all know, deities do not die entirely. Just take your bow to Anubis and the Servant of the Fallen feat and you are fine. Obviously, to gain more character levels (to get that feat), you have to take another class ... and the archivist immediately springs to mind. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 06 Dec 2007 16:40:58 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 02:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The only way I will stomach the death of Mystra is if they give Magic and all of her portfolio back to Selune. After all, Mystra was born when a piece of Selune was shredded away by Shar... Selune/Mystra seem quite the same in temperament/goals. Selune has also taken a backseat for quite a while too.
This will be interesting. Having the moon goddes as the goddess of magic will be a good thing. And this is a little similar with some of our cultures, that portrayed the goddess of moon as the goddess of magic, too.
quote:
Basically, I could survive the Realms without Cyric/Mystra (as for Kelemvor I like him where he is now... took a while to warm up to him but LN is definitely better than LE or NE for a god of death, if you think of it...) Of course, if they want to do away with him and give all his portfolios to Osiris, I'd be fine with that too.
Yeah, I think that I can survive without these two, too. I´m one of those that don´t like too much of the ToT changes, concerning these mortal-that-became-gods.
Chosen of Moradin: a recent post from Rich Baker seems to indicate that my idea.. err... prediction will be implemented in the new Realms...  |
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Liriel fans, we've got trouble!
