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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 15:53:27
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Well met
This is a Book Club thread for Neversfall (Book 1 of the Citadels series), by Ed Gentry. Please discuss chapters 21 - 24 herein.
(Note from WotC: "there is a slight typesetting error, and the last few chapters are labeled out of order: chapter twenty-one, chapter twenty-nine, chapter twenty-four, and chapter twenty-five (which does mean that there are technically only 24 chapters). The story is intact and in order")
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 02:52:10
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Loved it. I did not see the formians continuing to work with Taen and Adeenya. Seems that Taen figured out how how the "real" world work a little too well, letting the formians have the Chondies was a nice touch. Serves the bastards right!
Also Jhoqo's death was very satisfying You have a bit in common with Erik, he also does a good job writing characters that you can't wait to see die horribly!
Usually I loathe open endings, as far to few times the author is allowed to gather up the loose threads and weave us another tale. This one worked well for me though, as it was very easy to picture Adeenya and Taen working together and doing whatever it takes to do what needs done. I am thinking a trilogy is in order! I need to let my thoughts ferment for a few days before post a review on amazon.
I am also looking forward to other scribes posts as they get into the book, I see much opportunity for lively discussions. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 15:01:45
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RW, I'm so glad you liked the ending. I struggled with it a lot. I knew Jhoqo would die but it had to be epic without being silly. That's a tough tightrope to walk. Taennen agreeing to give the formians the slaves was my favorite part of the book, actually. I could feel that final wall of lawfulness falling away from him. I'm glad that came through.
I too look forward to more discussion so let's hear it folks!
Thank you again for being so kind as to do an Amazon review. Ferment away. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 06:52:17
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| I didn't enjoy this one. There wasn't enough going on in the plot to sustain the length of the novel. I didn't find it very imaginative. Sorry. |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 13:31:35
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| I'm sorry it didn't work for you, Rod. Thank you for giving it a try. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 19:00:58
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I thought it was ok. There were things I liked, and things I thought were a little bland, but overall I enjoyed it. I'll reread it again in a while (I just started working for Barnes and Noble, and bought a whole bunch of FR books using my wonderful discount, so it might be a while) and see what I think of it again.
A couple of things I liked:
* I am SO glad that a romance didn't develop between the two leads. It seems like that's an even more pervasive cliche in the genre than many, and I was really glad that you didn't try to get them involved. A little "wow, she's pretty," and that's it was a lot better than some romantic sub plot.
* I liked the formians, though I'm a little surprised that at least one Maquar (if they are all really paladins) wouldn't figure out what they are. Theirr mindset was truly alien, and did a good job of showing what a native of Mechanus would be like.
* Also, I liked that you picked an area that hasn't been covered much (and that you didn't flat-out ruin it like Council of Blades did), especially in fiction. The Realms is more than just the North and the Dalelands, and I'm glad you branched out. Was that your choice, or your editor's?
A couple of things I didn't like:
* Corbrinn. Specifically that he exists in this grey area of being used too much for a bit part, but not enough for us to care about him. I don't have enough information on him to care about his fate. Also, he's completely absent from the end battle. There's one mention of him grabbing a dagger, and then nothing. I would have expected at least a "cut scene" of him fighting later, even if it's just a mention of him in the pack. Corbrinn is a huge wasted opportunity in my mind.
* The death of the bad mage in the tower. This is flat-out a cheat. The tower is set up as the citadel's trump card, being impossible for anyone who doesn't know the code to enter. You have a bad mage up there, raining death, and suddenly he's falling from the sky. No explanation. No set up. I understand you have to do something with the tower at the end of the book (Chekhov's rule about the gun on stage and everything), but you *also* need to set up a credible way of getting him out of there. Or an incredible way, Or any way whatsoever. This infuriated me more than just about anything else in the book.
* People ignoring serious wounds and blood loss. Ok, granted. It's D&D, not the most realistic of games, but the novels tend to have a higher standard of reality. Adeenya should not have been able to do what she did after getting shot in the leg. I'm sorry. I'm willing to suspend disbelief quite a ways, but that's too much. And what's annoying is you addressed it when she's on the roof, but then let it slip by the wayside. I've had a badly injured leg; running and fighting were not two things I felt able of doing at that point.
* Final point, and a smaller one: the throw-away paladin reference. Are the Maquar paladins? There's one mention of "brother paladins" early in the book, and then it's never mentioned again. It's almost as if you felt that any lawful, good, somewhat hidebound warriors had to be paladins, but didn't want to deal with it. The book works just fine with them not paladins, leave it that way. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 05:08:49
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Thank you for your thoughts, Hoondatha. I know a lot of people say this but I really do plan to keep your well-stated and thought-out comments in mind when I write in the future. You make some excellent points - particularly about the tower-mage-cheat - that will help me better myself in the craft. I'm glad you enjoyed it on the whole.
As to your specific questions:
1)quote:
Also, I liked that you picked an area that hasn't been covered much (and that you didn't flat-out ruin it like Council of Blades did), especially in fiction. The Realms is more than just the North and the Dalelands, and I'm glad you branched out. Was that your choice, or your editor's?
That was my choice. I set my short story in RotDII in that area as well. For whatever reason, I fell in love with the Shining South above all other areas when I first read the FRCS and nothing's changed for me since.
2) Are the Maquar paladins?
Some are, some aren't. There was a reference to some light healing being done (paladins), but not all Maquar have that ability.
Thank you again for reading and for your comments. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 11:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
....
* I liked the formians, though I'm a little surprised that at least one Maquar (if they are all really paladins) wouldn't figure out what they are. Theirr mindset was truly alien, and did a good job of showing what a native of Mechanus would be like.
What is Mechanus?
quote:
A couple of things I didn't like:
* Corbrinn. Specifically that he exists in this grey area of being used too much for a bit part, but not enough for us to care about him. I don't have enough information on him to care about his fate. Also, he's completely absent from the end battle. There's one mention of him grabbing a dagger, and then nothing. I would have expected at least a "cut scene" of him fighting later, even if it's just a mention of him in the pack. Corbrinn is a huge wasted opportunity in my mind....]
I think Corbinn was underused as well, but am at a loss as to where he could have been expanded much with the wordcount usually set by Wotc. Only thought I have is it should have been him using his skills to get into the tower then kill the mage.
quote:
* People ignoring serious wounds and blood loss. Ok, granted. It's D&D, not the most realistic of games, but the novels tend to have a higher standard of reality. Adeenya should not have been able to do what she did after getting shot in the leg. I'm sorry. I'm willing to suspend disbelief quite a ways, but that's too much. And what's annoying is you addressed it when she's on the roof, but then let it slip by the wayside. I've had a badly injured leg; running and fighting were not two things I felt able of doing at that point
Have to disagree here, I am not sure of the nature of your injury to your leg, but everyone handles pain differently. I had debated even bringing this up as the memory is painful and I avoid thinking of it let alone talking about it. 11 years ago, right after the birth of my first child, I was imapaled through my up thigh and pinned against a telephone pole by what I will just refer to as A sharp metal rod about 1.5 inches in diameter. Not only did I remain conscious, but I was able to remove myself from the rod after the tractor pinnig me was backed up, but walked to pickup, opened the door and got in by myself while my friend ran to the drivers door and drove me to the ER. I felt no pain after the initial shock , I suppose because I pictured my baby and focused on seeing her and my wife again. It is almost unlimited what a human can do when it is life and death, like a battle with all your commrades and friends would be. When I got to the surgeon he said "My GOd man, what happened? It looks like your were jousting and took a lance through your thigh!". So if a arrow missed a major artery, you could do what Adeenya did. There would be alot of blood, but you would not bleed out.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 19:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
What is Mechanus?
The old Great Wheel plane of Lawful Neutralness. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 04:34:23
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Well, that beats my story (I was hit by a car while biking and broke my femur, among others things, and it took a while for the pain to kick in, even though I was holding my leg in its extremely unnatural position right before my eyes), but also proves my point: while it is possible for people to do amazing things while injured, it's only through intense willpower. There isn't enough in the story to indicate that they're actually doing that.
Now, I don't need a dissertation, but a couple of dropped instaces would have helped. For instance, Adeenya dropping out of her sprint into a limp when charging the gates and only being able to sprint again when the mage reveals himself (and she gets freshly-terrified). It's more annoying because Ed did such a good job when she's on the roof and freshly wounded, and then it just falls away. I think little notes during the battle that our heroes are already badly injured might have also served to up the tension. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 20:49:26
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I rather enjoyed it myself. I mentioned this in another thread. I found the novel very David Gemmell-ish. Heavy of warriors, light on magic, unknown "bad guys", clashing of cultures, gritty main characters, etc.
Nice work. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 17:57:32
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Merrik,
Thanks very much for giving the book a try. I'm really pleased you enjoyed it. I'm honored by the comparison to Gemmell, and I'm glad the grittiness of the characters came through. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2008 : 03:59:13
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| I loved it as well, I thought the formians were excellent, totally alien, I especially loved the end when Guk told Taennen they'd be back to get more slaves. I thought Taennen and Adeenya were both well written, I felt like I understood where they were coming from and that made the dilemnas they faced more potent. Jhoqo was a good villian, I loved to hate him and was glad to see him go. I agree that Corbrinn could've been used more effectively, but haven't quite figured out how that could've happened so no real complaints there, but I do look forward to reading the tale that's up on the WotC site. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2008 : 04:06:01
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Adeenya was the easiest character to write for sure, but I think Corbrinn was the most fun. That was especially true in the short story you reference, Xysma. That was just a blast to write.
Thanks again for your kind words! |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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SheriffJoe
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 03:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by SheriffJoe
A link to my review of this excellent novel:
http://sheriffjoe.livejournal.com/157871.html
Outstanding work, Ed!
WE WANT MORE!!!!
Good review SheriffJoe, I particularly liked your comment "We are, all of us, human, for good and ill." That's a fair assessment of the human characters of the book, which I felt was contrasted nicely by the very "unhuman" formians. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 02:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by EdGentry
Corbrinn was the most fun.
do you plans or thoughts are about writing this and some of the other characters again? |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 03:28:36
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Merrik,
I would absolutely love to. Several people have suggested a spin-off with Adeenya and Corbrinn. I think that would be a blast to write.
That said, it all comes down to whether or not WotC wants me to write another story. I certainly hope they do and am glad to know that others would like to see that too.
Thanks again for reading and for your questions. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 22:39:13
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This must be the first time I've read the monologue of the bad guy explaining why he is doing what he's doing and I've just nodded. I wasn't a huge fan of his killing people left and right but if he had just kept digging a tunnel past Neversfall I don't see what the problem would have been. I wasn't too swayed by Taennen's "Mulhorand's Endless War" argument. It seems to me that Mulhorand has a historical grievance with Unther and aren't all that evil besides.
And while I liked the idea giving Guk the mercenaries as slaves, it seemed very much out of character for Taennen to do so. There was so much effort expended in protecting these horrible Ant things dedicated to the enslavement of all sentient life on the basic principle of not harming prisoners and then he ends up giving prisoners over to be enslaved by these things? It seems the hierarchy goes something like this: Revenge superseded by Honor which is trumped by Poetic Justice.
Anyway, I liked the book. Good job. |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 03:39:36
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Ozzalum,
Thanks for the comments. I really appreciate thoughtful commentary like yours as it can only help in my future works.
I'm glad you liked it. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 14:29:17
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quote:
* I am SO glad that a romance didn't develop between the two leads. It seems like that's an even more pervasive cliche in the genre than many, and I was really glad that you didn't try to get them involved. A little "wow, she's pretty," and that's it was a lot better than some romantic sub plot.
I agree that the book didn't need a romantic subplot but... Taennen was going to pursue a relationship, right? How many girls can there be out there as courageous and skillful as Adeenya who also look beautiful covered in the blood of her enemies and sporting an arrow in the thigh? Surely she is a keeper.
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Edited by - Ozzalum on 17 Jan 2008 14:30:04 |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 18:13:46
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| I always imagined that Taennen was too consumed by the huge changes he was undergoing to really be able to pursue something like that. And, by the end of the novel, that window of opportunity was just closed. They were colleagues and that was that. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 18:27:17
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Oh well, just one more thing for poor Taennen to be regretful about.
And I agree that he was probably a little too consumed with the matters at hand. It always amazes me the romances that will pop up when the world needs saving.
"Please just save the world!" |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 13:26:36
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I wasn’t able to put my two cents for the chapters or having something new to add now, but I liked the book nonetheless very much. Keep going with writing novels for FR Mr. Gentry – if you are pestering the big bosses with enough of our posts, I’m sure there will be some follow up ...  |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 13:59:06
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Matthus,
Thanks so much. It's great to know that you enjoyed it. I appreciate that.
Also, please just call me Ed. Mr. Gentry is my father.
Here's hoping you're right about more projects :) |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 15:25:57
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quote:
Originally posted by EdGentry
Matthus,
Also, please just call me Ed. Mr. Gentry is my father.
Sorry about this - seems to be that I can’t switch from typical habits here in Germany to the more pleasing conversational tone in english quick enough – but don’t worry, I might still getting used to it, I just have to post more in your next thread … |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 09:21:05
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Hi Ed,
I enjoyed Neversfall a lot, mostly because of the inner turmoil the lawful characters in this novel have to go through (which bares a certain similarity to my current lawful-neutral character I'm playing and the quarrels I have with my DM over how my character should act). I think Taennen envies the formians for their unwavering lawful-neutral-doctrine.
The background story involving Mulhorand was interesting as well, although I didn't find a date to put the conflict at Neversfall in the proper timeframe (if, of course, Neversfall had any effects on Mulhorandi warfare).
Hope this'll be the first novel in a long list of Ed Gentry novels. |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 15:36:45
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Braveheart,
Thanks very much for giving the book a chance. I'm so glad you liked it.
When I set out to write Neversfall I really wanted to examine Taennen not on the Good-Evil scale, but on the Lawful-Chaos scale. I'm glad that came through.
For what it's worth, I played a paladin character in a campaign (up to level 13) where I played him very lawful-neutral instead of lawful good. He was a big 'ends justify the means' kind of a guy. I had a flexible DM so I lucked out there. Since then I've enjoyed playing other character classes but paladin has a special place in my heart.
Thanks again! |
http://www.edgentry.com |
Edited by - EdGentry on 15 Feb 2008 15:37:40 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 00:31:18
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Honestly, I really did enjoy the various "shades of Lawful neutral" arguements in this one. Not saying that Jhoqo wasn't on the evil side in the end, but the arguments were all fundamentally based in a greater or lesser belief in Order as a guiding principal.
While I understand Adeenya being upset with Taennen, but at the same time, the way I was looking at it, I had a hard time seeing Taennen as really having much of a choice in the matter. Taennen could have "held fast," pretty much gotten killed or beaten badly, and wait for the formians to come collect the survivors, or he could deal with the formians and try to generate a few more survivors while "sacrificing" some of the people set on killing him. I'd have to disagree with the assessment of that being tantamount to condoning slavery.
I was a bit surprised at the deep anti-Mulhorand sentiment in the this region. Mulhorand and Unther have had a long history, not always pretty, and I'm not sure that this feels right that Mulhorand would seem out of line, or at least over the top, in its war with Unther.
I was also having a bit of a hard time with weapons trade with the Shinning South being so important to the war effort. It seems like, if Mulhorand would have needed weapons that badly, Chessenta would be the logical "middle man" for the weapons trade, especially since many mercenaries for the war seem to have come from that region as well.
I guess, given that Tchazzar changed the landscape there in Chessenta, that avenue might have been cut off, and perhaps they needed a new pipeline. Perhaps that angle would have worked more for me if there were neighboring nations that had lobbied for the trade ban with Mulhorand (such as Murghom or Semphar, trying to reassert their independence). Then again, maybe just seeing something mentioning this trade ban earlier in the story would have made it feel like less of a strain when it suddenly became an important plot point.
That having been said, I really liked that we got to see the mindset of the merchants of this area, and what separates them from other merchant nations in the Realms, specifically their strict trade rules and adherence to codes of behavior rooted in their religion. I liked the degree of importance that was shown to this, especially when these elements have been mentioned in relation to the region in other fiction, but almost seemed like such things were only paid lip service to, rather than the impression that I got from the sourcebooks, that these rules are a way of life for these traders.
Overall, an enjoyable book, and I really liked the Order from different perspectives arguments, but the Mulhorand angle felt a little forced to me.
Oh, and another vote for being grateful not to see an obligatory romance between the lead characters.
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 04:46:54
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Thank you for the in-depth remarks, KEJ. I'm glad you enjoyed the book. I appreciate your comments about Mulhorand. It's comments like that can help me plan differently in future projects. Thank you for that.
I'm also really glad you enjoyed the book's look at order. That was a major goal of mine when writing it.
Thank you again for giving the book a shot and for your thoughts. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 04:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by EdGentry
Thank you for the in-depth remarks, KEJ. I'm glad you enjoyed the book. I appreciate your comments about Mulhorand. It's comments like that can help me plan differently in future projects. Thank you for that.
I'm also really glad you enjoyed the book's look at order. That was a major goal of mine when writing it.
Thank you again for giving the book a shot and for your thoughts.
Thank you for writing it . . . and taking the time to discuss it! |
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Neversfall: Chapters 21 - 24
