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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 13:05:48
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Hi! Newbie here... commenting on some posts in this thread:
1. Elaine, your page one explanation as to why WotC would like to stop novel discussions (because of potential lawsuits) was very insightful and enlightening. Thank you for your valued and informed input! You claim that you do not know much in IP/copyright issues, but I believe (no offense!  ) that you could very well manage an IP department. Your judgement in these matters is fair, informed, accurate and impartial. IMO, WotC banning novel discussions makes the perfect sense, (read: for WotC) because makers of the various sourcebooks are WotC staff, while novel authors aren't (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a logical conclusion as to why only novel discussions were banned - WotC does not wish to be responsible to harm caused to freelancers not on their payroll). I'm saying this as a True Neutral observer, in a "first-person" view of "WotC - The Indepedent Legal Entity." Sure, personally, as a "FR lovah" and customer, I really abhor the decision, but someone made a call at WotC, weighing the damage this would cause to customer relations versus the shielding they would gain against potential incoming lawsuit descriptors [Cold, Fire, Sonic, Acid or Electricity], and that person decided to go for the Protection vs Energy spell...
2. I do not agree that there is a better climate here in Candlekeep because of population size. IMO (and it is ONLY MY OPINION), the population's average intelligence and maturity also have a great effect on the quality of posts. To be truly honest with you all, there are a lot of morons on the WotC FR Boards. Blame the Message Boards links provided on several other WotC D&D sites (FR, D&D, RPGA, etc.) or blame it on Pokemon children drifting to the wrong window, but something is clearly attracting a different subset of gamers there. It is my belief that if these Candlekeep forums grow, the additional population would have a higher average maturity. Some WotC Boards poster just like to show off because they're "on the official site", the "look at me mom! I'm diving in the deep end of the pool" phenomemon.
3. Personal thoughts: it is of my opinion that WotC will ultimately revise their policy on novel discussions. Either that or drop their whole Message Boards operation... Like other posters here mentioned, the novel side of WotC is too lucrative to turn away. Even if a small percentage of readers even made it to that section of the FR boards, the book industry is (again, IMO) very influenced by plain old word of mouth. What makes certain novels sell better than others? I don't think it's entirely marketing and cover art. Sure, when you're big time like Elaine, Ed or RAS,  you can always count on a large percentage of readers to buy your books as soon as they are released, but the most recent authors out there, those that I haven't read anything from yet, would certainly benefit from a nice, lively online question corner. It's a very good opportunity for the reader, and an INSANELY good opportunity for the upstart/new author who can basically get it straight from the readers, therefore allowing him to improve or do things right again in the next novel. The disappearance of that venue is probably one of the saddest thing here, not the loss of my actual enjoyment in communicating with authors, but the loss of my communication having an effect (as tiny as it is) on the shape of our future Realms (and yes, the official Realms are now strictly in line with the novels: don't let anyone tell you otherwise!!) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 20:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
2. I do not agree that there is a better climate here in Candlekeep because of population size. IMO (and it is ONLY MY OPINION), the population's average intelligence and maturity also have a great effect on the quality of posts. To be truly honest with you all, there are a lot of morons on the WotC FR Boards. Blame the Message Boards links provided on several other WotC D&D sites (FR, D&D, RPGA, etc.) or blame it on Pokemon children drifting to the wrong window, but something is clearly attracting a different subset of gamers there. It is my belief that if these Candlekeep forums grow, the additional population would have a higher average maturity. Some WotC Boards poster just like to show off because they're "on the official site", the "look at me mom! I'm diving in the deep end of the pool" phenomemon.
I'll agree with this part!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 00:37:56
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Just this part?  |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 08:52:26
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I just wanted to share this experience with you all, mostly for the one question that was brought up.
Could what happen on the WoTC boards happen here, sadly it might but I have faith in Alaundo and his scribes to do that right thing when it does happen. However my faith in friends of mine to do the right thing was shattered tonight.
See there are many reason why a board turns into one like the WoTC boards. It starts off at small forums when people talk. They start to say how they hated this or that book, in time they get comfortable in their beliefs and in time it turns to down right hatred. When people at this smaller sites either don’t correct them or law down the law so to speak they get bold then one day lo and behold they stumble upon the main boards at WoTC, or happen to be there the whole time and just get brave enough to post it or so used to the hate speaking they see nothing wrong with it.
Then they post it in the threads and boom, over time the boards are closed down. It spreads like a curse, they feel it is ok to do it at this one place why not here. Now I have been part of this one website for a while, where I actually met my now wife at etc. since 1997 I believe. When it was reformed I offered to pay for the boards and gladly still do it. Today a post popped up there attacking three authors Terry Brooks, Robert Jordan, and David Eddings, it got my blood boiling. See though I own the boards I never asked for OP control, so then I proceed to do a three page rant about common respect, courtesy, the golden rule etc. I used the closure of the novels board as an example. Friends of almost 7 years shot back, But we have the freedom to say what we want, this is censorship!
I proceeded to grind my teeth and wonder when people I have known for almost a decade condone personal attacks against people, authors. I was stunned. I talked to the owner, a friend of 5 years about it and he had the same view. Not as mine, but that it was censorship to require people to at least post some positives about an authors work, not attack them personally, I asked for them to balance such posts one good thing for one bad thing but nope that is censorship Down with big brother! So I just sighed, said fine I am deleting my account there and have someone else take over the funding of the boards from me next month. Because I just refuse to be part of a place that thinks the golden rule treat others as you would want to be treated is censorship.
I tried to explain to them this is how hate spreads, but god if it was not lost on them. Freedom of speech….yeah I guess they have that right to spout off like children about a persons sexuality or intelligence level, to call someone a pedophile for writing about a nude 12 year old, saying all these books should be burned, or the author should die already etc. lost friends of 7 years because of this one belief, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But alas I just can’t stay there and watch them do this it just goes against everything I believe in and try to do in life. It is odd, lost friends for defending people I don’t know and probably will never meet but it isn’t in me to just stand back. (chuckles) ah well the right thing to do is not always the popular thing to do. oddly enough it has been years since I read any of those three’s works and never once read Robert Jordan. eh i doubt they would really care one way or the other anyways...
So you all ask how people can act like that on the boards. The answer is simple is no one takes a stand against such behavior or lets such behavior go it only spreads like a virus to other boards and other forums and in time ruins it for everyone. Alaundo and others I have confidence in for taking a stand against such posts. It isn’t about numbers, less then fifty people post on a regular basis on that board, it is who runs those boards. If such behavior is tolerated it spreads.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 09:52:20
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And I certainly don't tolerate hurtful behavior here. I don't exactly have much power to prevent it -- I'm no moderator. And it's probably a good thing.  Still. This is my home-away-from-home, and if it gets to be a bad neighborhood, I'm off. And I tell you, I hate moving. 
So remember, it's not just the moderators. If you feel like something's wrong, go tell Alaundo, or speak out against it yourself. I'm sure that part of the problems mentioned in the previous scroll stem just as much from members ignoring it as a one-time thing as they did from moderators asleep at the keyboard. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 10:09:10
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Well met
Worry ye not, Josh Davids, for here at Candlekeep, we will not allow such events to take place. Of course, we have had...ahem, "disruptions" in the past, but such have been nipped in the bud.
Even more so since the arrival of a fair number of valued Realms scribes who produce our beloved tomes of lore and novels, we endeavor to provide this humble library as an enjoyable haven for them. Insults and disruptive behaviour will not be tolerated. Any critisism must be polite and constructive, lest my wrath be unleashed! 
That said, Bookwyrm is quite correct.... should anyone see signs of anything of concern, and I am not seen in any of the chambers nearby, then please holler for me and i'll be sure to arrive as soon as possible, staff of the irriated moderator +5 in hand  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 04:07:52
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Thanks to both of you, but I kinda know just by the little time here that Alaundo and the others won’t let anyone get away from it. I was shocked to find that the owner, someone I knew for 5 years was ok with this type of posting. I was surprised and disappointed to say the least, but I feel better that I stood up for them. Seems odd but reading an assignment for Lit class today about the same thing in essence, made writing the essay a lot easier lol.
From a flurry of emails and messages sent to me last night by the owner and a post by the offender a lot of things have cleared in my eyes. The owner has the policy that he turns a blind eye to it and that they have the freedom of speech. The offender thought he was helping the authors by posting the way he did, at one point calling Robert Jordan a closet pedophile and Terry Brooks a no talent uneducated hack who never got past the 2 grade reading level.
Pretty much deleted my account there, told my wife who helps run the place I will keep paying for it, but beyond that I will not have my name associated with a place that bashes authors. Lost some good friends because of this but ah well, the right thing to do is not always the popular thing to do, or the easiest to do.
But I got to say as infrequently as I get to post here this has become a home away from home for me. Some good advice from the authors, a place I can come to talk about my love for the books and the setting. It is also a place I don’t have to worry about trolling, flaming or just down right rude people at either, a rarity on the net it seems.
Now back off to the D20, spent too much time on this author bashing at the other site to sit easy with me, ug about 4 hours behind now on my assignment, then if all goes well it gets published by the end of this month. Weee…my first publication (shameless self gratification) but man now I have a new respect for game designers! and I got to wonder does pepsi change dna, just by the amount I have been drinking the last week…yeesh I would be a case study for either caffine addiction or prolonged use of the substance in massive amounts.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 04:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Davids
The offender thought he was helping the authors by posting the way he did, at one point calling Robert Jordan a closet pedophile and Terry Brooks a no talent uneducated hack who never got past the 2 grade reading level.
Pretty much deleted my account there, told my wife who helps run the place I will keep paying for it, but beyond that I will not have my name associated with a place that bashes authors.
I can't believe the Jordan comment you just mentioned was allowed to stay on any board that contains any amount of adult supervision. Can I ask what the name of this place is that you are referring to? When you mentioned supporting the place, I thought I knew what site you were discussing, but now I'm not so sure. |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 09:01:44
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I am surprised it was aloud to go through as well and the owner has such a lack luster approach to it, basically shrugging his shoulders and spouting off about freedom of speech. The comment alluded to Jordan being a closet pedophile in the same manner I have seen countless times on other boards people do the same thing about Eddings, even seen it a few times about Greeowood etc. saying that they are like this because they have nudity whatnot in their stories. This guy brought up about Jordan having girls nude a lot in the book, oh and they happen to be twelve, make your own judgment is the way he put it. So I should clarify he alluded to him being a closet pedophile. That way if someone says they will sue for defamation of character or take them to task about breaking board rules they shoot back, well you misread it I didn’t write that. (snorts in disgust) glad I left. And rethinking keeping funding of the board, Now that I think about it because the board is in my name, they get sued for something like that I will be named in it just because I pay for the boards. Guess it will be something to talk to the wife about tomorrow.
The site is called the green dragon inn, I actually started Rping there online back in 1997 or so, met my wife there as friends, got married. The place I posted my first story at and people encouraged me to write, so without it wouldn’t have met my wife, have my kids, or be where I am today working for a small D20 company and trying to get published. All that aside, all the history means nothing to me if they sit and allow such behavior then try and hide behind the American constitution, the guy who runs it is Aussie. The thing I can’t understand is the ops, besides my wife who felt disgusted by it view it as ok, well we attack politicians etc why not authors. (shakes head a bit) attacking anyone is not ok in my book, no matter what they are I might think such and such a person is a complete and total moron about one thing or the next but I just won’t say it. I honestly expected more from that site, I really did. I was going to ask them to link to the D20 group, and if the D20 company gets off and running talk about a lot of people hitting them and maybe even starting a business. Pfft…forget that now if they can’t act in a professional manner heck no, I don’t want anything soiling that D20 group or my name. I am still amazed by it, I honestly expected more from them. Can ya tell I am still surprised and shocked?
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 09:48:17
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If I could just put my two cents in, I'd say this: as much as I have enjoyed my brief time here at Candlekeep, I doubt this board -- or any -- is immune to mudslinging. I have seen other threads on this site (one in particular sticks in mind) that have contained unfortunate personal attacks that lowered the tenor of the entire conversation. Alaundo swiftly intervened, but I was a little disappointed to see that he was the only one who did so. (This thread occurred shortly before my time on the boards.) I don't think it's fair to place sole responsibility with the moderator, because it indicates a tacit acceptance of that kind of behaviour which just shouldn't exist. I would have liked to see other scribes step forward and gently remind the combatants that not only does such vitriol show disrepect for each other, but for everyone else who participates in these forums as well.
I think it's all too easy to spiral into that kind of behaviour when emotions are running high, which they can easily do when people are discussing topics close to their hearts (like FR, for example). I think issues of sexuality are particularly inflammatory (case in point: the topic here at Candlekeep I am reffering to also involved that subject). It's hard enough to remind yourself to keep a certain minimum level of respect when you're chatting face-to-face; when your interlocutor is nothing more than words on a screen (or the person you're laying into isn't even a participant, as in the case of some of the authors) I think it becomes that much easier to ignore common decency and embark on bilious diatribe. When you can't see the hurtful effect your words are having, you're that much less likely to rein yourself in.
I think it's a danger inherent to the medium, and we've all succumbed at one point or another. But that's all the more reason for other participants to take responsibility for the upkeep of the forums they frequent, and not to tolerate childish sniping for any reason. That's just my opinion. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 12:07:23
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Well met
Thanks ye, Zyx
I try to get to any offending pennings as soon as possible, but alas, even such as I need sleep....every now and then
I must however take this opportunity to give thanks for a fair number of scribes herein who give their "unofficial" help in the way of personal messages alerting me to any disruptions when Im not lurking in the chambers and corridors. Bookwyrm in particular, I thank ye for this 
I also find, even more so now with more scribes increasing in rank, that should any "rogue scribe" cause a disruption, that many will join together against such, at first trying to calm situations and keep the situation in hand before my arrival to take over.
Head Moderator I may be, but the particular task of keeping order herein would be much harder without my fellow scribes |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 03 May 2004 12:08:30 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 13:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
It's a very good opportunity for the reader, and an INSANELY good opportunity for the upstart/new author who can basically get it straight from the readers, therefore allowing him to improve or do things right again in the next novel. The disappearance of that venue is probably one of the saddest thing here, not the loss of my actual enjoyment in communicating with authors, but the loss of my communication having an effect (as tiny as it is) on the shape of our future Realms.
Thanks for the kind words, Purple Dragon. I hate to disagree with one of your points, but the quote above demonstrates one of the problems with the WotC Novels board.
Readers expected that their comments would shape future novels. They were TOLD to expect this, thanks to the wording of the Code of Conduct rules then in place. And when their comments did NOT change certain things, some posters responded with anger. ("What?! Bob Salvatore is STILL using comic dwarf names? He doesn't listen to or care about his fans!")
I'm certainly not claiming that readers don't have valid complaints and worthwhile suggestions, or that a writer can't learn from such comments. Through discussions on the WotC, I decided to avoid real-world names for future characters and stick more closely to the style of nomenclature Ed Greenwood established. The problem with this is that readers have widely varying tastes, and they frequently make conflicting suggestions. By setting up a climate of expectation, you're ensuring that people are going to feel ignored and discounted if their suggestions are NOT acted upon. It is impossible to incorporatate all suggestions, it is impossible to please everyone. Even if key plot points were decided by opinion polls, those whose suggestions were not followed are likely to feel disgruntled.
Some reader suggestions are helpful; for example, general questions about areas you'd like to see explored, or characters whose stories you'd like to hear. Comments about who should "get" Catti-brie, however, are not the sort of thing writers can or should act upon.
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 14:34:20
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As an "upstart" myself, I would like to agree with what EC has said. I would also add that there could potentially be legal dilemmas with such discussions. What if a reader suggested something, seemingly in good faith, and then I used it -- only to find myself on the wrong end of a lawsuit later on? Whether or not such a lawsuit had legal merit, it would be seriously damaging to an author's career even to have it alleged that they had stolen someone else's ideas. And as Elaine mentioned, the (sometimes heated) differences of opinion on these boards are evidence enough that there is a wide diversity of opinion on what should or should not happen in the Realms.
Aside from whether or not it's wise for an author to take reader comments too much to heart, to a certain extent it may not even be desirable. While fan feedback is crucially important, it is also vital that an author remains true to his or her own artistic intent. If writing for the Realms simply became an exercise in pandering, it would be of no creative merit for the authors, and no damn fun for the readers, either. Hollywood movies are often criticized for precisely this. In their unswerving desire to please, they render themselves too predictable to be of much interest to anyone. Characters become feeble re-hashes of one another, and plots cease to be suspenseful or dramatic because we've heard them all before. The Realms are celebrated for their great and wondrous diversity; if everything were done by poll, how diverse would FR remain? |
Edited by - Erin Tettensor on 03 May 2004 14:45:06 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 20:32:01
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I can understand where you authors are coming from... but I still find it sad for me, the reader. Losing an avenue of access to our favorite authors is for several of us a hard blow to take. Again, I understand it from WotC's perspective, but I still struggle to understand it from your end of the spectrum. Your last posts shed a bit of light on the matter, although it doesn't really address the concerns of the "old guard", the long-time readers who knew how to behave online in the first place, and who knew that it was rude/out of place/moronic to make suggestions on upcoming books, or to tell authors how to think about their very own characters. I am clearly not suggesting that authors should go online and look for readers' suggestions before starting on a given chapter. However, both of you still allude to the "importance of readers' comments" (in Elaine's case, it affected her naming habits for FR characters; not something minor in my world)
I can only say that I find it sad that it had to come to this. I personally blame it on the "universal lawyerification of everything." As Elaine mentioned, the CoC was wrong here... once again, it would have been better not to have a CoC in the first place. People telling others how to think is always bad, and I find that such forums usually end up dying due to a lack of interested participants or from a decision by the forum's owners. I have the same opinion about unions, corporate ethical guidelines, and anything else that attempts to replace human leadership by an artificial "conduct gospel." Maybe the WotC novel section would still be there if strong, decisive, well-informed moderators with a good sense of judgement had been there over the last few years? or if a good central leadership would have managed/supervised the moderators in a proactive way? (as opposed to reactive?)
Speculations, I know... it doesn't replace the novel boards but it's certainly good to even be able to express them at all!!
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2004 : 21:16:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
As Elaine mentioned, the CoC was wrong here...
I wouldn't go so far as to say it was "wrong." The CoC was worded in a way that invited "suggestions for improvement," which fostered certain expectations in forum participants.
quote:
... it would have been better not to have a CoC in the first place. People telling others how to think is always bad,
A code of conduct doesn't tell people how to think, but how to behave. There's a big difference.
I've been on unmoderated boards, but I prefer forums with a clear, consistently enforced CoC. Every community, online and off, has certain values, standards, tastes, and interests. Every community defines and safeguards itself with rules. That's true for businesses, schools, social clubs, and even relationships. Deviating from an accepted or implicit code of conduct--sleeping with your wife's best friend, for example--can very quickly destroy a two-person community. An online forum works in much the same way. When the rules are consistently flouted, the community eventually breaks down.
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 13:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
...but the most recent authors out there, those that I haven't read anything from yet, would certainly benefit from a nice, lively online question corner. It's a very good opportunity for the reader, and an INSANELY good opportunity for the upstart/new author who can basically get it straight from the readers, therefore allowing him to improve or do things right again in the next novel. The disappearance of that venue is probably one of the saddest thing here, not the loss of my actual enjoyment in communicating with authors, but the loss of my communication having an effect (as tiny as it is) on the shape of our future Realms (and yes, the official Realms are now strictly in line with the novels: don't let anyone tell you otherwise!!)
Chiming in. Nope, not a published author by any means, but I'll give you my two cents anyway, whether you want it or not. =p
I've just read an irate beta-reader's (note: a beta-reader is the equivalent of an editor for us amatuerish, unpublished nobodies) rant. The author she's betaing for, apparently, is only fixing her writing as far as technical/spelling errors are concerned, but have not significantly altered her plot/ideas. The beta's complaint--
quote:
Most of her story was fine, but there were a few parts where I told her that she should probably--I was actually nice!--change and deepen her characters a little bit more. But when I checked out her end product at FF.net, all she had done was change all the typos that I pointed out. That's not why I beta! I beta so your story doesn't suck! LISTEN TO WHAT I SAY! I halfway know what I'm talking about!
<snip>
If it isn't bad enough that bad writers throw their terrible writing out there, when good writers try to help, the bad writers shrug it off and say that they don't need it. BUT YOU DO NEED IT, YOU IDIOTIC FLUFFBRAINS!
And we're just operating at the level of, I remind you, unpublished, unpaid writers with equally unpaid beta-readers. Sometimes the audience and their feedback can be pretty demanding. |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 10:06:49
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Just finally getting a length of time away from the D20 project to address a few things since my last post.
PDK a code of conduct doesn’t require people to think the same way, what it requires is people to behave in a mature civilized manner. I have been around long enough on the net to know never to expect that from people on message boards without a code of conduct. I am normally a guy who always sees the silver lining around a cloud, or a glass half full. Heck when I was told on Christmas eve I had two weeks to live I just smiled and said to my mom, well at least I will know if you are right or I am in two weeks, at the time I didn’t believe in life after death. I saw it as a learning experience.
When it comes to the internet I learned long ago some are fowl mouthed, whiny, immature little spoiled brats who always think they are right everyone else is wrong and that freedom of speech covers everything despite the fact their home country was China…. (takes a deep breathe) For the longest time I tried to keep a cheery attitude because I went to places without code of conducts and places that had them. I been to places that tried their hardest to enforce civility on their boards and places that just turn a blind eye to the problem because it is easier to ignore it then stand up to it.
God knows how many times I came up with code of conduct for RP sites, but in time I just gave up frustrated by the immature attitude of so many about actually being nice, heck I saw it most from administrators at one place. Drove me up the walls, at one point pounding my head in frustration into the desk after reading an administrator calling some patrons of a place snot nosed little brats because they complained that allowing rape storylines in a pg-13 site was against rules, she disagreed mostly because it was her story line and secondly “if you can’t handle adult matters then leave you whiny little (Insert expletive here) and don’t let the door hit you on the way out” never mind that it broke rules etc.
The novels forum wasn’t closed because people were saying why don’t you do this or why don’t you do that, they were closed because people were being abusive to the authors and creators of products and in my opinion they did the right and only option left to them in the end since people refused to obey the CoC. They closed the forum.
Now I want to ask you this PDK how is requiring everyone to at least be cordial and not abusive to others dampening creativity and exchange between reader and author? I have seen it already here just the few months I have been here take a look at the Ed Greenwood thread over 700 replies do you think that would have happened on the WoTC boards with how hostile people were over there towards him and his writing? In my opinion being nice encourages dialogue and sharing of ideas it doesn’t dampen them. The last place I left two years ago the Ops that ran the site were so abusive of the patrons and patrons were always attacking others that didn’t share their ideas day in and day out threads were locked, people deleted because so many refused to be nice. The site almost closed down because of it, the good people left leaving only the mean and nasty ones behind when someone new came they were chased off by the abusers. When people are nice threads stay open, things are discussed when it turns into bashing and personal attacks threads are closed or deleted and no ideas or information is shared.
The Code of Conduct does not force you to like this author or that author; to like this product or that product what it does do is keep the boards civil, organized and open. It keeps name calling down or from happening, flame wars to a minimum and hatred from becoming so virulent that it ruins the entire site.
Winterfox I wanted to add this some authors and just like some artists will never see anything wrong with what they do, it is always perfect and right. I have experince with what you mentioned in there with Elfwood, I got both an art account and a writing account there and have gotten thousands of comments in my time there. 99.5% of the comments are pretty nice and helpful specially with the art giving me hints of shading and technique. Stories are the same way, even when someone doesn’t like my writing style they try to leave a good comment. I have had some comment on this one character, I always had a problem with her just could never figure out what exactly, till one comment and a suggestion from a reader about how to improve her a bit. I think I made them shoot tea out their nose when I sent an email to them thanking them for the help and promising to make the changes to the story and character. Got an email back a few days later half the page was blank denoting stunned silence then she asked, “you weren’t upset that I told you she wasn’t good as a character?” nope I thanked her again, in my view people who think themselves never wrong or always right have the most room to improve I am glad for any suggestions on improvement I can to get better. Now if someone wrote “you suk!” of course I will try and ignore it as best I can without resorting to shooting back a foul comment at such a person. I have also seen it in my D20 job, got an assignment for spells I was still new to 3.5 so there were some problems with them the editor gave me some tips, again I sent back an email with thanks in it for the help and corrections. Again he was stunned, “what you didn’t think your stuff was solid gold and perfect?” nope I know my limits game design is still new to me.
To me those people are just too full of themselves to see the reality of life, so one is perfect, I have as yet to see the perfect artist or perfect writer or perfect anything for that matter. I have been through too much horrible crap in life to be full of myself, in all honestly I think it takes a brave person to admit when they are wrong, and on the net there aren’t too many brave people it seems. Besides after a time people start believing the lies they tell everyone else, a form of delusion I suppose. People refuse to admit when they are wrong, pride I guess. Ah well ranting here now.
In the end be civil, be polite and be ready to admit when you are wrong is my suggestion to people. It will save you stress and heartache in life. and keeping you from abusing the desk by slamming your head into it =:0)
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 12:49:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Davids
In the end be civil, be polite and be ready to admit when you are wrong is my suggestion to people. It will save you stress and heartache in life. and keeping you from abusing the desk by slamming your head into it =:0)
My desk has got a dent. So does the wall next to my desk. The poor things; I abuse them so much. I frequent various writing communities, so I know all too well about feedback and writers with tender, fragile egos. The screams of "OMG U r m34nIE!11!oneone" echo around there every other day. Y'know, the people who will go into screaming fits the very moment they receive a comment that doesn't consist of "u r such a g00d riter!1!! rite m0r3 plz!1"
My point in that last post is that the beta expected just a mite too much, though. I've got a beta, an extremely honest person who will tell me straightaway if he thinks this idea or another is corny or just doesn't work. I've posted my work for public critiques, and have had my work nitpicked at sentence by sentence. I thank anyone who spares enough time for those, but I might not always agree with them. Some people'll say that this passage is too sparse and sketchy; others will say the passage is just fine, since the things being described are irrelevant and uninteresting. So I pick and choose which suggestions I'll take -- rarely does anyone try to beat me over the head with a "You have to change this the way I tell you to, fluffbrain!" |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 22:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Davids
Now I want to ask you this PDK how is requiring everyone to at least be cordial and not abusive to others dampening creativity and exchange between reader and author?
Well, it assumes that some of the forum members are "not cordial and are abusive" in the first place, and the very need to have a CoC sometimes hint at the population's maturity, which is why I hate CoCs on the boards I like to frequent. I know this assumption is correct in some cases, but I frequent many other boards (some related to space exploration, camping, hiking and others) where no such "rules" need to be put in place... and these boards seem to do wonderfully.
I see your point though, and I guess a word or two going along the lines of "Here, you'll play nice or get the boot" would be enough... My main beef is that they're asking me to read a full-fledge ethics document maintained by a full-time WotC employee. Can you say blah? |
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OrnluTheWolf
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 00:25:10
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I'm here on candlekeep solely for the novels section and only after I had been basicly kicked off of WotC forums. I'm a naturally opiniated person, so I've got alot to say about this, especially after the unnecessarily rude treatment I recieved from the WizO.
First:
While the administration obviously decieded that to disband the novel forum, they actually had a choice. On one hand, they could have expended much time and effort (mostly by the wizo's) to block/lock/delete any potentially copy-right enfringing posts, offensive posts, or irrelevant information. Or, they could have taken up an "information only" idealogy. They could have changed the CoC to not allow interactivity with the authors that would have been potentially harmful, but this also would have taken alot of work. Finally, they could have disbanded the forum entirely, which they did. Those chose the option involving the least work but also the one that stepped on the most toes.
Second:
I don't really have as much problem with the decision as I do with the execution of the policy. I was recently mistreated by BigSis, to the point where I wrote a very nasty and even profane email subtly begging to be permantly banned. The only thing I recieved in reply was a generic, automated response. My dirty letter never even got read. Also, the rules on what is/not acceptable are too vague.
Third:
These forums are WAY, WAY, WAY better anyway. For crying out loud, Elaine Cunningham, R.A. Salvatore, and Ed Greenwood frequent these forums. And most of the great authors that post here don't just answer questions, they make intelligent, lengthy posts that assist others rather than just one sentence posts that show their self-absorption. Elaine, if you're reading this, my extra-special thanks to you. I'm very impressed by the attitudes of you authors. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 18:02:08
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Well Wooly and those others who said they got banned for novel discussions, WOTC doesn't believe that is so..... Posted today, the 25th.
Debunking a couple of myths
* It was me that gave you the options to either ban novels all together, or try for the other option (the one mentioned above). Nope, it wasn’t me who decided to give you these choices … it was just the way things worked out because of the decision made by others and handed down to the WizO team, and the way FR board users responded. Sometimes life itself decides you have limited choices, and it isn’t something you can blame one single person.
* People have been banned for breaking the novels rules. Nope. I’ve checked our records and nobody has been banned just for breaking the novels rules. Users only get banned for utterly outrageously offensive single posts, or for a series of violations. In some cases breaking the novels rules was the last violation in a strong of them, but it was the whole ongoing pattern of refusing to obey the rules of the site that got them banned. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 18:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
* People have been banned for breaking the novels rules. Nope. I’ve checked our records and nobody has been banned just for breaking the novels rules. Users only get banned for utterly outrageously offensive single posts, or for a series of violations. In some cases breaking the novels rules was the last violation in a strong of them, but it was the whole ongoing pattern of refusing to obey the rules of the site that got them banned.
Have fun with this WR. Dear Cyric, I'm glad I left that mess. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 19:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
* People have been banned for breaking the novels rules. Nope. I’ve checked our records and nobody has been banned just for breaking the novels rules. Users only get banned for utterly outrageously offensive single posts, or for a series of violations. In some cases breaking the novels rules was the last violation in a strong of them, but it was the whole ongoing pattern of refusing to obey the rules of the site that got them banned.
Have fun with this WR. Dear Cyric, I'm glad I left that mess.
Oh, I already have. Kuje31 e-mailed me about that, so I went and saw the post for myself.
I then decided to PM BigSister. I pointed out that I'd been banned after three strikes, and two of strikes were supposedly for discussing novels. I spoke of how I had not been discussing novels, and I also mentioned that after being banned, the thread that earned me my final strike had been deleted, not locked, so I couldn't prove my innocence. I also pointed out how my e-mailed protest was utterly ignored.
Other things I pointed out: The fact that the rules as they stood at that point said it was okay for me to say what I said in both cases. The fact that I had several hundred posts, at least. The fact that I tried to be helpful and to share much Realmslore, and that I do have more than most people. And I of course pointed out that I had earned a degree of respect for those points.
As of a few minutes ago, I had not heard back from her. Truly, I'm not really expecting to -- after all, she ignored me once already. But it will be interesting to see if she does deign to reply.
And best-case scenario, I get my old name reinstated. Of course, even if that happens, I shan't be posting on there terribly oft. I wasn't terribly satisfied with those boards, due to the moderation and the way a lot of the other posters were. I was, in fact, thinking of bailing on that forum, or at the least cutting way back.
Candlekeep is where I choose to be now. I can speak freely here, and have intelligent discussions (even with SiriusBlack! ). So even if they allow me back as Wooly Rupert, I'm here to stay. You're stuck with me! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 20:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As of a few minutes ago, I had not heard back from her. Truly, I'm not really expecting to -- after all, she ignored me once already. But it will be interesting to see if she does deign to reply.
Keep a copy of all your communications with her. That way you have a record of everything you've done to resolve the situation and her responses or lack there of. It would be something nice to have if you, unlike I, ever find out, who her higher authority is.
quote:
Candlekeep is where I choose to be now. I can speak freely here, and have intelligent discussions (even with SiriusBlack! ). So even if they allow me back as Wooly Rupert, I'm here to stay. You're stuck with me!
Darn, just when I thought we might be free of you. Good luck with this WR. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 23:03:21
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I see that she has locked the thread so that responses to her claim are impossible.
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Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 23:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I see that she has locked the thread so that responses to her claim are impossible.
That's SOP, at least in my past experiences, when a WOTC moderator posts something like that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 00:43:54
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Well, I got a response from her, and I replied again. She replied to me twice:
quote:
WizO_BigSister wrote on 06-25-04 10:55 PM:
Wooly you had two previous warns for violations of the Code of Conduct that had nothing to do with the novels. You lost the right to use the name Wooly Rupert because you had received three official warns. The decision was not made because of the single violation of the novels rules, it was made because of this pattern of violating rules. This is exactly what I said in the post.
Unfortunately you didn't ask for a copy of the posts at the time you received the warn. Although I did back up the thread, as it was over six weeks ago the backup has now been removed. If you disagree with my decisions you are always welcome to contact my supervisor, WizO_Paradox.
quote:
WizO_BigSister wrote on 06-25-04 11:27 PM:
Our records show you received warnings on 12/7/2003 and on 2/6/2004 for CoC violations that were not related to the novels rules.
It is a common practice for WizOs to delete threads that may have started off innocently but have rapidly filled up with posts that violate the rules.
As I said if you have a problem with my decision then feel free to contact WizO_Paradox. Talking to me does not seem to be achieving anything, as you have already decided my decision was wrong, and that you do not accept the reasons I have given.
Keep in mind that the warnings I received, two of them were for novel discussions. Also keep in mind that she says I could have asked for copies of the posts... But when I e-mailed her the day I was banned, my e-mail went unanswered. So when was I supposed to do this?
I'm not done fighting, but I know it's a lost cause.
I'm not sure if I'm gonna follow it up with her boss WizO or not... By now, I don't really want to go back. But I do want the ability to use my old name if I do decide to drop in there...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jun 2004 00:52:41 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 01:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not done fighting, but I know it's a lost cause.
I'm not sure if I'm gonna follow it up with her boss WizO or not... By now, I don't really want to go back. But I do want the ability to use my old name if I do decide to drop in there...
I would, if you have the time, energy, and patience, follow up with her supervisor. Did she provide contact information for him/her?
I must say your experience here truly makes me glad that I'm not dealing with that mess any further. Hang in there WR, some people love you. I'm not one of them, but I'm sure some people or some pets do. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 03:00:35
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| Wow I thought I held a grudge long.Wooly your determination is comendable.You should just make a new name.Something like Rupert Wooly,and go right on posting if you ever deign to do so again over there. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 06:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Wow I thought I held a grudge long.Wooly your determination is comendable.You should just make a new name.Something like Rupert Wooly,and go right on posting if you ever deign to do so again over there.
I inherited many traits from my father. One of those, and certainly not one of the better ones, was the ability to quietly nurse a grudge until I have no reason to.
I was growing tired of posting over there. I enjoyed helping people out and helping develop nifty ideas. I also enjoyed spirited but reasonable debates about various topics. But I was growing tired of many things, as well -- that's why I was thinking of quitting, or at the least, cutting back.
I had participated in no less than three debates about making a movie about Drizzt Do'Urden. I had come up with what was practically an essay on why that was a bad idea (don't get me started!). I laid out several very valid reasons. Each time, my reasoning was either ignored or pronounced to be entirely wrong. That was tiresome.
I grew weary of threads where people would argue and argue about various things, to the point of ignoring printed Realmslore ("There's nothing that says Qilué isn't a Chosen of Eilistraee the same way she's a Chosen of Mystra! Just because all the other priestesses of the Promenade are called that means nothing!").
I grew tired of certain other posters... Like the gent who asked for help with his campaign. His PCs -- at least one of which was a god --were running around killing Chosen and deities, and no other deity would do anything about it. I tried to be helpful, answering his question about the consequences of killing four particular Chosen of Mystra. And then he insulted -- rather harshly -- anyone who posted on his thread with the thought that his campaign was built on rather unlikely circumstances. Since I was one of those, I was seriously tweaked off by this.
I was growing tired of the moderation, as well. As stated previously in this scroll, it seemed arbitrary and overly harsh.
Lastly, I was tired of the overall tone of that forum. Over here, the posters seem to be a far more mature and reasonable bunch (except for that guy named after a Harry Potter character ). Here I can engage in a reasonable debate, without fear of moderator censure, being flamed, or dealing with "OMG, a drizzit movie wood be so kewl!!!!11". Candlekeep is a community, whereas the WotC forums were a milling mob.
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I would, if you have the time, energy, and patience, follow up with her supervisor. Did she provide contact information for him/her?
No, but I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find. Her most recent message was a bit more reasonable, so I'll keep trying with her for a bit longer.
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Hang in there WR, some people love you. I'm not one of them, but I'm sure some people or some pets do.
Ah, SB, my senile friend, you have such a way of encouraging people! I can't see why you lost your job as a counseler...
Seriously, I'm only fighting this because I was wronged. I want my name cleared. I did no wrong, yet was harshly punished for it. I don't follow Ilmater -- that kinda thing irks me.
I've no plans of returning to that forum, but I'd like to be able to post under the name I choose, if I do wander back over there.
Admittedly, though, I feel kinda like I'm going up against Moander's Abomination with a spray-bottle of Weed-B-Gon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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WOTC's New Novel Rules
